Traded Mathieu Joseph traded to Blues

[BankStreetParade]

Sens fans have been conditioned, through Dorion’s terrible roster construction, to think guys like Joseph or Chychrun on his off side, are not replacement level players. It’s sad to see.

You think Chychrun is a replacement level player???? I've seen stupid takes on here before but this is a contender for dumbest take of the year.

 

[NyQuil]

Ah, we’re back to throwing players no longer with the team under the bus and embracing the new guys unconditionally despite not seeing a second of ice time with the Senators.

Must be the off-season again.

It's not a secret, right? Ottawa was soft as baby shit and easy to play against, as well as likely being slightly immature, so staios has begun changing things so that it's a more workman, gritty approach than silky skill - which got us nowhere anyway.

I still would have likely to keep Joseph, but I certainly get the idea.

Let’s just hope we aren’t slow.

For every Radko Gudas there’s an Erik Gudbranson.

Tough to play against means during play, not after the whistle during shoving matches.

In any event, improvement for this team rests with the guys we already have, not the little tinkering we did (aside from Ulmark depending on how many games he plays).

 

[BankStreetParade]

It's not a secret, right? Ottawa was soft as baby shit and easy to play against, as well as likely being slightly immature, so staios has begun changing things so that it's a more workman, gritty approach than silky skill - which got us nowhere anyway.

I still would have likely to keep Joseph, but I certainly get the idea.

I don't think Joseph, Tarasenko and Kelly were a problem in that regard. Chychrun might have been a bad fit for this roster but he's also clearly very talented and capable. Brannstrom was always a player I didn't think highly of, so no big loss there and I think he was certainly part of the problem.

All of this belies the point that these are periphery players. This team is easy to play against because it's "best" players are easy to play against. Stutzle, Batherson, Chabot, etc. don't make it hard enough on opposing players. While Brady is great at forechecking, he's dismal defensively. Constantly floating near the blueline and making it easy for the opposition to stretch the defensive zone against us. So while he's not easy to play against when he's on offense he's very easy to play against on defense. Giroux, bless him, just doesn't have the juice to forecheck hard anymore. He's a cerebral player and being hard to play against is not where he's at in his career.

Hopefully these changes have the intended effect but I just don't see how replacing Kelly with Gregor really makes us harder to play against. It's a lateral move, at best. I don't see how replacing Joseph with Amadio makes us harder to play against. If anything, I see it as a slight downgrade. Joseph's forechecking pressure, speed and PK abilities are being replaced by someone with far lower skill in all 3 of those areas.

 

[DueDiligence]

While Brady is great at forechecking, he's dismal defensively. Constantly floating near the blueline and making it easy for the opposition to stretch the defensive zone against us. So while he's not easy to play against when he's on offense he's very easy to play against on defense

Did you watch the last half of the season. Brady was far better defensibly under JM and Alfie.

 

[Micklebot]

You think Chychrun is a replacement level player???? I've seen stupid takes on here before but this is a contender for dumbest take of the year.

Yeah, I'd file that in wildly exaggerated, lol.
Hamonic is replacement level, Chychrun on his offside had serious problems, but he was still our best option by a significant margin.

 

[GCK]

You think Chychrun is a replacement level player???? I've seen stupid takes on here before but this is a contender for dumbest take of the year.

I said specifically that Chychrun “playing his offside” is a replacement level player. When he played left side he was pretty good.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Lol man you just can't stop huh? Priorities are the same as you had. For starters, don't do this dumb trade. I'll take Tank over Perron anytime. Hire literally anyone than bottom barrel Green, even an uproven coach is a preferable option than one that has already proven he's a failure. Impossible to say how to deal Chykrun, I'm not privy to any inside info of what was available and what wasn't, picks/players etc, no one guessed Boston would agree to take Korpi, so anything is possible, but if you can't find a youngish RD to swap with that can be part of the teams future for several years, then look for best assets available and use those as trade bait later, sign a temporary plug in meantime if necessary. Sometimes you can't check all boxes adequately, prefer he'd done that than just make any underwhelming move just to say a need was addressed, while gifting away asset like its Christmas. Ullmark as is.

You're just not gonna convince me he's done a great job, and I'm clearly not gonna convince you either. Like I said, wrap it up fam, I've gone back and forth with you more than my ex at this point.

Well you hadn't really laid out much for thoughts other than complaining emphatically over and over, so I was curious. Didn't think it was confrontational to ask you to try to expand on what you were unhappy with or might have liked to see otherwise.

 

[Micklebot]

I said specifically that Chychrun “playing his offside” is a replacement level player. When he played left side he was pretty good.

I found the underlying numbers of him while with another LHD vs RHD interesting and oddly not what I expected, deployment seems to be very different,

​

TOI With​

CF​

CA​

CF% With​

GF​

GA​

GF% With​

xGF​

xGA​

xGF% With​

SCF​

SCA​

SCF%​

HDCF​

HDCA​

HDCF% With​

Off. Zone Faceoff %​

Strong Side​

895.67​

850​

960​

46.96%​

34​

49​

40.96%​

32.19​

42.71​

42.98%​

359​

470​

43.3%​

143​

189​

43.07%​

46.78%​

Off side​

651.23​

762​

649​

54.00%​

28​

34​

45.16%​

32.48​

28.04​

53.67%​

349​

286​

55.0%​

124​

112​

52.54%​

62.08%​

All that said, the eye test should some eratic play on his offside, and the better underlying numbers can probably be explained by QOC and QOT, his most common partners were JBD and Chabot, followed by Hamonic and Brannstrom, that's quite the discrepancy,

 

[SpezDispenser]

Ah, we’re back to throwing players no longer with the team under the bus and embracing the new guys unconditionally despite not seeing a second of ice time with the Senators.

Must be the off-season again.



Let’s just hope we aren’t slow.

For every Radko Gudas there’s an Erik Gudbranson.

Tough to play against means during play, not after the whistle during shoving matches.

In any event, improvement for this team rests with the guys we already have, not the little tinkering we did (aside from Ulmark depending on how many games he plays).

It's two fold IMO. You're moving on from players like Kelly - who was okay - and Kastelic who was a major disappointment and replacing then with young, hungry players like Ostapchuk and Gregor - neither of whom are slow and should provide an extra spark on the 4th line. Amadio replaces Joseph pretty cleanly - not as fast, but probably a better player (it appears].

Now, as you both noted, you need Tkachuk (who was vastly improved with a real coach] and Stutzle and Batherson etc. to engage in a more aggressive style. More serious, more workmanlike. This team should appear quite different IMO.

Not to mention Jenson for Chychrun, who absolutely sucked defensively. Out goes Chychrun, in comes a mobile righty who is quite smart defensively, but doesn't provide too much offensively - so basically the polar opposite.

In comes Kleven, out goes Brannstrom, who was fine when called upon, but again, doesn't fit the mold of what they seem to be going for.

 

[bicboi64]

I don't think Joseph, Tarasenko and Kelly were a problem in that regard. Chychrun might have been a bad fit for this roster but he's also clearly very talented and capable. Brannstrom was always a player I didn't think highly of, so no big loss there and I think he was certainly part of the problem.

All of this belies the point that these are periphery players. This team is easy to play against because it's "best" players are easy to play against. Stutzle, Batherson, Chabot, etc. don't make it hard enough on opposing players. While Brady is great at forechecking, he's dismal defensively. Constantly floating near the blueline and making it easy for the opposition to stretch the defensive zone against us. So while he's not easy to play against when he's on offense he's very easy to play against on defense. Giroux, bless him, just doesn't have the juice to forecheck hard anymore. He's a cerebral player and being hard to play against is not where he's at in his career.

Pretty much this. Even Brady is easy to play against because you can bait him to make a short sighted move especially if we're losing.

Having 'tough' complimentary players never hurts, but at the same time, your top guys can't be so easy to exploit by opposing team. Stu needs to stop falling down, Bath needs to be consistently strong when he carries the puck, Chabot needs to not hesitate and second guess himself when looking for a play, Brady needs to always focus on staying committed to the game instead of biting on another team baiting him if they do something "unsportsmanship" like.

Hopefully guys like Greig and Pinto continue their development because they play bigger than their body.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I was curious how Amadio and Joseph's production paces would compare, since Amadio looks like his replacement on the 3rd line.

82 Game paces for the last 3 years. Amadio definitely the advantage in the goal scoring department, but lower point total.

Joseph
2021-22 - 14.3g/21.4a/35.7p
2022-23 - 4.4g/22a/26.4p
2023-24 - 12.5g/27.3a/39.8p
Total - 10.8g/23.7a/34.5p

Amadio
2021-22 - 17g/10.8a/27.8p
2022-23 - 19.6g/13.5a/33p
2023-24 - 15.7g/14.6a/30.3p
Total - 17.4g/13.2a/30.6p

 

[Boud]

So based on the other transactions SS and team made do you honestly think they all had a gigantic brain fart and cooked up this deal for fun? Joseph is such a valuable asset let's throw in a 3rd rounder as well because the Blues are great guys?
Maybe give your head a shake and consider some logical alternatives as to why Sens management wanted MJ off the team so badly.

There has to be an ulterior motive because it cannot be performance related.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Not sure which analyst it was but he noted that Joseph played an unpredictable game - and that’s very problematic when you have to rely on consistent decision making.

 

[Micklebot]

There has to be an ulterior motive because it cannot be performance related.

Consider that no other team was willing to trade something for him, or even take his contract on for FC. I don't think any teams really value Joseph with his contract, for all the obvious things he brings (speed, PK, and some secondary scoring) teams still don't see the value. Imo, that's because he really isn't physical despite the hit totals, and he isn't particularly hard to play against in his own end.

I say this as someone who would have preferred we keep him and the 3rd instead of signing Amadio, but at the same time, I can see why they wanted to move away from him and get a different type of player.

 

[Micklebot]

Not sure which analyst it was but he noted that Joseph played an unpredictable game - and that’s very problematic when you have to rely on consistent decision making.

I think that was Simmer?

I recall the comment being linked to Adam Oates not liking playing with Bondra in Washington which would be a very Simmer story to tell.

 

[SENStastic]

You never did offer any realistic alternatives to the moves Staios made, you just said outside of Ullmark they were terrible.

LOL Im not the GM, I don't have access to all the offers and players and picks available. I can't offer you what would be a good move if I dont know whats realistically available or possible to begin with, BUT I can absolutely criticize AS MUCH AS I WANT for dumb shit that has ACTUALLY happened. His very first move should've been to buy out Hamonic, no excuse to leave him on the roster, that frees up 700k right away. No clue why he didn't do that, apart from his personal connections to him. Also, should've shopped Chabot, he's nowhere near his cap hit, too injury prove, way too inconsistent, too many brainfarts, you can't fix that at this point of his career with coaching or new partner. Replace him with someone cheaper that will be stapled on 2nd line behind Sanderson, where he belong. Here is my other suggestions I wrote just a couple posts before your reply here, as if you actually cared about anything but running cover for a terrible GM job so far: Don't do this dumb Jospeh trade, you didn't need to for cap reasons at all, especially if he'd bought out Hamonic to begin with like he should've. I'll take Tank over Perron anytime. Hire literally anyone than bottom barrel Green, even an uproven coach is a preferable option than one that has already proven he's a failure. Impossible to say how to deal Chykrun, I'm not privy to any inside info of what was available and what wasn't, picks/players etc, no one guessed Boston would agree to take Korpi, so anything is possible, but if you can't find a youngish RD to swap with that can be part of the teams future for several years, then look for best assets available and use those as trade bait later, sign a temporary plug in meantime if necessary. Sometimes you can't check all boxes adequately, prefer he'd done that than just make any underwhelming move just to say a need was addressed, while gifting away asset like its Christmas. Ullmark as is.

You can love him or hate him, but Im starting to hate him already with the moves he's done so far. First impressions matter and its been completely underwhelming, no way we're making the playoffs for the 8th year in a row. Not gonna wait and see and decide 5 years later like with Dorion, don't have that patience anymore frankly. We've been told to be patient for a decade now, I can't stand trash leadership, management or coaching anymore. If you do, good for you.

 

[GCK]

LOL Im not the GM, I don't have access to all the offers and players and picks available. I can't offer you what would be a good move if I dont know whats realistically available or possible to begin with, BUT I can absolutely criticize AS MUCH AS I WANT for dumb shit that has ACTUALLY happened. His very first move should've been to buy out Hamonic, no excuse to leave him on the roster, that frees up 700k right away. No clue why he didn't do that, apart from his personal connections to him. Also, should've shopped Chabot, he's nowhere near his cap hit, too injury prove, way too inconsistent, too many brainfarts, you can't fix that at this point of his career with coaching or new partner. Replace him with someone cheaper that will be stapled on 2nd line behind Sanderson, where he belong. Here is my other suggestions I wrote just a couple posts before your reply here, as if you actually cared about anything but running cover for a terrible GM job so far: Don't do this dumb Jospeh trade, you didn't need to for cap reasons at all, especially if he'd bought out Hamonic to begin with like he should've. I'll take Tank over Perron anytime. Hire literally anyone than bottom barrel Green, even an uproven coach is a preferable option than one that has already proven he's a failure. Impossible to say how to deal Chykrun, I'm not privy to any inside info of what was available and what wasn't, picks/players etc, no one guessed Boston would agree to take Korpi, so anything is possible, but if you can't find a youngish RD to swap with that can be part of the teams future for several years, then look for best assets available and use those as trade bait later, sign a temporary plug in meantime if necessary. Sometimes you can't check all boxes adequately, prefer he'd done that than just make any underwhelming move just to say a need was addressed, while gifting away asset like its Christmas. Ullmark as is.

You can love him or hate him, but Im starting to hate him already with the moves he's done so far. First impressions matter and its been completely underwhelming, no way we're making the playoffs for the 8th year in a row. Not gonna wait and see and decide 5 years later like with Dorion, don't have that patience anymore frankly. We've been told to be patient for a decade now, I can't stand trash leadership, management or coaching anymore. If you do, good for you.

Thanks for the response. I agree 100% on Hamonic. I don’t think a plug at 2RD does anything but tank the season.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Really don't recall Norris being that fast.

Lots of players are fast. And top speed tracking is fine. But Norris simple doesn’t use his speed like Joseph does. Maybe it’s an acceleration thing.

Ok, so Joseph's top speed was 22.85 last year, and we know that guys like Norris (22.95), Stutzle (23.47), Ostapchuk (22.92) and Gregor (22.97) all had higher top speeds last year, but how about busts over 22 mph, that should give you an idea how much these guys use their speed in game

Joseph 9 times over 22 mph

Norris 12 times,
Stutzle 23,
Ostapchuk 2 (in 7 games)
Gregor 15

Honestly, I feel like Joseph's speed is very good, but it's like a fishing story, it gets bigger every time we talk about it. Everybody seemed to want that element Formenton brought and just decided, well this new guy is a pretty fast 3rd liner, and transferred that reputation over to him, but when you look at the fastest guys in the league, Joseph doesn't really hold up

Miles Wood : 23.88 max, over 22mph 45 times
Formenton (2022): 24.21 max, 31 times
Point: 23.46, 43 times
MacKinnon: 24.05, 118 times
McDavid: 24.19, 66 times
McLeod: 23.82, 27 times
Tippett 24.21, 46 times

Joseph is quick, and he's fast, certainly well above average in both, but he is not uniquely fast the way some portray him, that's fantasy.

I don’t know did you see ostapchuk fly by defenders last year when he played for us? I didn’t

Maybe the number say after some build up their top speeds are higher. Whatever. Then I would say what are they doing ? Why aren’t they catching defenders unaware every single game and blowing by them?

 

[Micklebot]

Lots of players are fast. And top speed tracking is fine. But Norris simple doesn’t use his speed like Joseph does. Maybe it’s an acceleration thing.


I don’t know did you see ostapchuk fly by defenders last year when he played for us? I didn’t

Maybe the number say after some build up their top speeds are higher. Whatever. Then I would say what are they doing ? Why aren’t they catching defenders unaware every single game and blowing by them?

The legend of Joseph's speed extends far beyond his actual speed, I think you've created a narrative of Joseph that doesn't actually align with what happened on the ice, and that's the issue.

Is Joseph fast, sure. But people are acting like he is one of the fastest guys in the league and that just doesn't line up with the facts.

The reality is a lot of players have faster top end speed, and get up to top speed more often. So what about Joseph is it that has you think he's uniquely fast? I see you claim he's blowing by defenders, but honestly, I think you're wildly exaggerating how frequently he did that.

I think the rose coloured glasses are in full force with people saying he's among the fastest in the league, it just doesn't match up with my viewings or any of the tracked data. He's fast, and he's quick but he is not uniquely so.

 

[DueDiligence]

Who was faster than Joseph. There’s a reason you see the other teams defence legit leave the puck and start frantically backpedaling when it’s. A loose puck on the power play.

OK so for a guy who is so fast he didn't create much with it.
And for being a great penalty killer the team ranked 29th.

 

[Micklebot]

OK so for a guy who is so fast he didn't create much with it.
And for being a great penalty killer the team ranked 29th.

To be fair to Joseph, Id argue our pk ranking had more to do with goaltending and D than the forwards. We needed to get some saves, clear the net and clear rebounds more, none of that is the responsibility of the forwards on the PK, not that they were perfect

 

[DueDiligence]

His very first move should've been to buy out Hamonic, no excuse to leave him on the roster, that frees up 700k right away

: Don't do this dumb Jospeh trade, you didn't need to for cap reasons at all, especially if he'd bought out Hamonic to begin with like he should've.

I'll take Tank over Perron anytime.

OK let's do the math: Senators have $3.6 million in cap right now. Buyout Hamonic save $733K keep Joseph add back $2.95 million . Sign Tarasenko instead of Perron add another $750 K.

So after those moves Senators available cap is less than $700 thousand and they only have 5 defensemen on the roster and 12 forwards.

 

[SensontheRush]

If BUF likes McLeod so much they give up Savoie, STL is going to LOVE Joseph and a 3rd for... nothing. They even have similar contracts. Joseph's might even be better because McLeod is going to have to be extended following this season.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The legend of Joseph's speed extends far beyond his actual speed, I think you've created a narrative of Joseph that doesn't actually align with what happened on the ice, and that's the issue.

Is Joseph fast, sure. But people are acting like he is one of the fastest guys in the league and that just doesn't line up with the facts.

The reality is a lot of players have faster top end speed, and get up to top speed more often. So what about Joseph is it that has you think he's uniquely fast? I see you claim he's blowing by defenders, but honestly, I think you're wildly exaggerating how frequently he did that.

I think the rose coloured glasses are in full force with people saying he's among the fastest in the league, it just doesn't match up with my viewings or any of the tracked data. He's fast, and he's quick but he is not uniquely so.

If you look at a bunch of speed tracking I bet you’ll see a lot of players that make you go “hm. I watch him and he doesn’t seem that fast”.

OK so for a guy who is so fast he didn't create much with it.
And for being a great penalty killer the team ranked 29th.

Yeah he’s not that great of a player. He’s a fine player.
Didn’t say he was a great penalty killer. But the pp is very aware when he’s on the ice and the fact he can hit top speed extremely quickly

 

[Micklebot]

If you look at a bunch of speed tracking I bet you’ll see a lot of players that make you go “hm. I watch him and he doesn’t seem that fast”.

Now, is that because you aren't paying attention or because somehow the empirical evidence is misleading?

Here's my perspective, right from the get go, I found Joseph to be pretty fast, but never quite lived up to the hype. I've watched almost every game he's played here just as I'm sure you and others have, and all that has done is solidified my position. I'm not saying he's slow, he's certainly not. But, I frankly don't see him as a speedster the way you seem to.

He is not even in the same league as guys like Formenton or Miles Wood for example, yet that's the pedestal it feels like people are putting him on. He is garden variety fast imo. What he does do well is pounce on opportunities, I think he's good at anticipating a chance to pressure the oppositions D. What I don't see is him blowing by guys unless he's caught them flat footed with that anticipation I just highlighted.