Especially considering he's one of the hardest working players on the team when actually playing.
On-ice leadership > off-ice leadership any day of the week,
Traded Mathieu Joseph traded to Blues
- Thread starter Ouroboros
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Especially considering he's one of the hardest working players on the team when actually playing.
On-ice leadership > off-ice leadership any day of the week,
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Either way, the guy is a 25-35 point winger with speed. The season doesn't rest on his shoulders, so love the deal or hate the deal, it really doesn't matter. Pretty obvious the deal has a human element we won't ever get an explanation on.
Trying to get rid of him beginning of last year with little success made sense, he was injured and underperformed the previous season and Dorion put himself in a bad spot by leaving zero room to resign Pinto. Everyone knew he was desperate for space and they were going to make him pay for it. This year however, it makes no sense. And no, you should definitely go through waivers first, someone would've taken a flier on him if it cost them nothing, he's not a negative value at that contract and age for what he brings. I'm sorry, I aint buying it. He's a capable 3rd liner that can move up in a pinch and has good utility on the pk and opening up the ice, and he's productive, even if inconsistent.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Sorry but I'm not buying it. This guy has been out there as available for a long time now and Staios wasn't paying a 3rd without knowing that was the only route to go. They've obviously targeted him as the guy to move to alleviate cap and that wasn't just the one year thing. Just like Brannstrom was available for basically free and nobody went there until they could have him for free for 900k likely to be upgraded on at the deadline. Other teams are paying to dump contracts too, and they aren't placing those guys on waivers first either, it's just not how it works in most cases.
I agree that he is a capable player that probably earns or at least comes close to earning his salary, but he's also a guy that has had his name out there for a full year and was wildly inconsistent, so I'd come to terms with them identifying him as a player they don't want on the team. The fact that they moved him at a cost while signing an almost equal cost 3rd liner tells me management didn't think too highly of him. Considering how much he slowed down after Martin took over, I can't help but think the recommendation may have come from him.
They tried to move Joseph at the deadline but there were no takers.
Ya im not buying that either. Not sure why players that we offload all the sudden all have negative value, and we just keep shrugging it off as that being the norm. Buying high and selling low is not a winning strategy, yet we've become accustomed to it as the norm here, even expecting it at this point.
Gil Gunderson
Registered User
Jason York on CIH said Jacques Martin told him during the season that the team needs to be more professional and needs more guys like Giroux. I think it's unfair for people to blame it on Joseph considering none of his know him (and these problems preceded him), but the Perron and Amadio signings make a lot of sense.
I guess Staios turned down a good pick so that he could channel his inner Dorion and throw away a pick.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
There's not really anything to buy from what I said though. I'm not making outlandish claims like they paid a 3rd to move him even though he could just be given put on waivers and claimed easy peasy. He was available to every team and had his name in the mill for like 365 days, even disregarding the cap issue last year. Last summer the rumored cost was a 2nd, so 1 less year on the deal now aligns with cost dropping to a 3rd. Nothing really changed. The market dictates the price and whether you, I, or anyone else here likes it, the cost to move Joseph and his 2 years left was a 3rd round pick. Sucks, stings, seems like it makes no sense based on our viewings, but it was obviously the price with nothing coming back. The argument is whether or not they should have moved him and/or made any subsequent moves that affected the situation, but the price is not really debatable.
If any of you just stated is true, and that's a big if that I still dont buy, then you just keep him for another season. We could've used what he brought, and injuries have always been a thing. Still doesn't make sense.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
If you or anyone else wants to argue that Joseph should have been kept and subsequently Amadio or Perron not brought in, that's fine. I think that's the debatable part that will have to bear out on the ice this year. I don't care about Joseph personally, but I do think it's clear there was no market out there for him at his current contract and that's not debatable. Why? I do not know, but for whatever reason, GM's just don't seem to be interested in Joseph at his current price tag. It's not like any contender went there for a 3rd either, he still had to be stashed on a middling team without any cap issues to worry about. I think his career norms may hurt him a bit here, is he a 15goal 35ish point guy or more of a 8-10 goal 25ish point guy. The former sets you apart as a solid 3rd liner, while the latter is more of an easily replaceable 4th liner you don't want to spend 3 mil on.
frightenedinmatenum2
Registered User
I think it's a sum of the parts sort of thing.
The players they walked away from weren't your traditional locker room cancers. They were just regular young players. They identified a need to bring in veterans. They did not have much cap flexibility, and there are only 21-23 roster spots. The core is already very young, so all the secondary and tertiary players were moved out to allow them the opportunity to reshape the room.
What the hell does Brady Tkachuk do? As much as I like the player, he has it way, way too easy around here.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
No you can't. Cap rosters have been posted many times showing it doesn't work. Certainly not if they don't want to hamstring themselves again with a 20 man roster completely capped out. And that's also discounting the likelihood of rounding out the 4th line/3rd pairing on the roster with the cap space that is left now.
yes not ideal, but Staios is the one that decided to give overinflated contracts to both those players. That's his responsibility, he doesn't get to fix that by turning around and throwing away more assets in return. The cap would've been 700k with all 3 still on the book and Pinto signed, not great, but not over either. You can spin it any which way you want, still terrible management, and it's solely on him. Period.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
It's not spin, it's a difference of opinion. I prefer the players he chose to bring in and the route he went and don't see it as "terrible" management. I think he's done great this summer.
I don't think those numbers are accurate though. I think the rosters that account for everything, including Sanderson's overage, showed it's not possible. Either way, I think it's obvious as well that at least one more body is being brought in/interchanged based on the cap space available to them now.
Micklebot
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Yeah, the guys we brought in are pros (Jensen too),
Joseph was the odd man out, that doesn't mean he was a bad pro, but he was one of the few movable pieces when you get down to it. We weren't going to move Batherson or Norris, that just isn't happening.
For the sake of the team, I hope you are right it actually is a net benefit somehow. I just don't see it at all right now and I'm judging it at face value as just very poor management decisions. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, would love to have a great team to cheer for, thats all I want at the end of the day, but I'm not liking the odds with what he's done so far.
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Micklebot
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- Apr 27, 2010
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I'm unclear what your solution here is,
If the problem is we need more "pros like Giroux", and to make room for them we need to clear some money, the answer isn't trade Tkachuk, so why bring him up at all? You want Tkachuk to be more mature, ok, that should come with time, but the GM can't solve the need for more pros by waiting on Tkachuk to mature, he needs to bring those guys in to support the team.
Joseph was one of the few contracts that you could realistically move, him, Chychrun and Brannstrom. We moved all three.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
I hope so too. My priorities this summer were as follows, so I'm happy, even if the value on a couple of the deals was hard to swallow. I didn't actually even think it would all be accomplished.
1. Bring in true #1 Goalie
2. Escape from Korpisalo contract
3. Remake D with proper 2nd pairing, defensively minded RD
4. Improve forward depth with veterans
Regardless how we got here, I think the roster is a lot better now, and we have an all new coaching staff in its first year of an actual stable organization. Belleville should also be in much better shape with significant investment down there finally.
Pierre from Orleans
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aragorn
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Joseph is fast & that's it IMO, I don't really see anything else about his game that is inspring. He's not much of a goal scorer, he's not much of a playmaker & he isn't hard to play against which seem to be what they want most from players. He might out race someone for a puck to prevent an icing or use his speed to prevent the odd breakout, but there is no consistency from his game.
Pinto & Norris have great shots from the circle, Joseph does not, Batherson & Giroux are great playmakers, I don't see that from Joseph at all & IMO Kelly was harder to play against than Joseph. Of course, I have no idea if these new guys are going to be much better, but my guess is that they will be much harder to play against.
Pinto & Norris have great shots from the circle, Joseph does not, Batherson & Giroux are great playmakers, I don't see that from Joseph at all & IMO Kelly was harder to play against than Joseph. Of course, I have no idea if these new guys are going to be much better, but my guess is that they will be much harder to play against.
I don't have a solution, I'm just thinking aloud. I have no issue at all with the Joseph deal, assuming there are still some additions to come. I have generally liked what Staios has done in the last few weeks.
My concern is with Tkachuk's maturity and leadership skills. Think of it in this sense. Bob is the manager of a factory. A new, well-respected and experienced consultant takes a look at the operations and determines that the factory needs to operate more professionally, and that they need more people like Jim, who is the assistant manager. What does that say about Bob?
Nick Paul scored 6 more goals last year than Joseph scored in his career with the Senators. He's a replaceable bottom 6 player that was overpaid for 11 meaningless games against week teams.
Happy to see that the new group isn't concerned about "vibes".
That everyone's priorities for years now. Those were all clear glaring holes for the team. It's how you address those issues and the moves you make to fix them that you get judged on, not the fact that just something was done about them. Dorion brought in Korp to address the goaltending on an anchor contract, he technically addressed an outstanding priority, but it wasn't a good move from the outset, and that's what he's judged on. The way Staios has been addressing those problems leaves alot to be desired. For me, Ullmark can be his one saving grace if he can get him extended, that could make up for alot of these blunders, everything else was a crapshoot.
