Marner haters right now

[Notsince67]

In hindsight it seems reasonable but at the time Dubas obviously didn't think it so.
I'm sure it's one of his regrets.

Most certainly a huge failure but I supposed we should have expected it from someone so young. No excuse for Shanahan who didnt have someone experienced and competent to mentor him through it.

 

[freshwind]

guess i need to avoid these threads ... seems like the disconnect between emotions and reality is quite extreme ... all the intelligent people now say it was a no brainer to give a 65'ish point player 8.5 X 8 ... can anyone pull a post where they stated that after his 2nd year he should get 8.5 for 8 then, and not 2-3 years later? if i recall (and i am too lazy to search to be honest) but was the rumour not 9 per for 8 years that he wanted? matters not ... just wish we had a gm as smart as all these internet warriors out here pontificating how they would have done this and that ...

hindsight
[ˈhīn(d)ˌsīt]
NOUN

1. understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

 

[Notsince67]

guess i need to avoid these threads ... seems like the disconnect between emotions and reality is quite extreme ... all the intelligent people now say it was a no brainer to give a 65'ish point player 8.5 X 8 ... can anyone pull a post where they stated that after his 2nd year he should get 8.5 for 8 then, and not 2-3 years later? if i recall (and i am too lazy to search to be honest) but was the rumour not 9 per for 8 years that he wanted? matters not ... just wish we had a gm as smart as all these internet warriors out here pontificating how they would have done this and that ...

hindsight
[ˈhīn(d)ˌsīt]
NOUN

1. understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

From Aug 1 2018
Marner's Next Contract

How about an apology?

 

[Dekes For Days]

if i recall (and i am too lazy to search to be honest) but was the rumour not 9 per for 8 years that he wanted?

That's what I remember too, and I've found discussions referencing 9m, but nothing referencing 8.5m. The original source of the rumour seems to have disappeared, which doesn't suggest great things for its accuracy in the first place. Of course, the rumour was always illogical based on everything we know about the negotiation, because aside from Marner having absolutely no reason to want to be the only one in his cohort to sign a year early, before finally getting to play in less production-suppressing situations, he was also quite consistent about not wanting an 8 year deal.

Unfortunately, this rumour this one guy made this one time months after the supposed negotiation took place has taken on a life of its own, and even though it's never been confirmed or even remotely supported/backed-up by anything or anyone, some choose to spread it as fact.

And you are absolutely correct that Marner and Dubas would have been similarly blasted for that hypothetical contract, had it been signed.

 

[freshwind]

From Aug 1 2018
Marner's Next Contract

How about an apology?

good for you .. and thank you for this ... not sure it needs an apology, but if it makes you feel better .. i apologize ... not sure what i am apologizing for ... i asked a question, you answered it, i would have said thank you either way ...
this also was your take, nothing about the rumour that mitch offered this to the leafs which is the criticism (unwarranted) of dubas
if i get the chance i will peruse that thread a bit and see if there was a consensus or were you on your own LOL
anyhow... thanks for this... cheers

 

[nsleaf]

From Aug 1 2018
Marner's Next Contract

How about an apology?

Angry Wendel wants an apology.

 

[Notsince67]

Angry Wendel wants an apology.

Great ankle bite junior

 

[Apex Predator]

If Lou knew he was coming back do you think he would try and negotiate the Nylander contract early?

Sometimes I wonder that was why he never prioritized it.

 

[AcerComputer]

The mistake was signing the Matthews contract before the Marner one. Always sign the big one last, unless Matthews was getting the Jack Eichel contract of $10M x 8 years, and sign right now the deal is off type of thing. Otherwise there was no rush to announce his first.

 

[Orfieus]

I know we are 27 pages in and I haven't read a single one but I might as well put my 2cents in here

My opinion has always been if someone in the top3 has to go (Matthews, Nylander, Marner) it is Marner that needs to go. I still stand by this and I hope Marner does really well no matter what because if this team once again fails in the playoffs Marner has to be the one to go and Marner with a bunch of points will be A LOT easier to trade and the return will be really good

What is a good return I say a package, top6 forward + blue chip prospect + 1st + 2nd

 

[Antropovsky]

Think it was Keith Jones during the broadcast who said "Marner has to shoot that" during a powerplay - but of course Marner opted for a pass. Watching the powerplay with him, yes he's great at zone entry but jeez at this rate I don't think he will ever score a powerplay goal again. Would Spezza be a worse option as a #1 PP option? Seems like a waste for him to play only 25 seconds of every powerplay.

 

[WTFMAN99]

'Greedy and immature' is just a perception, I don't believe that to be the case.
Not signing Matthews first would have avoided all that. That was a colossal mistake by Dubas probably more so than caving to Nylander.

Whole thing has been beaten to death
I already know the various replies that will follow this.

I think Dubas was worried about an offer sheet on Matthews, not that it can't happen but it was just a poor way of running business, I will forever argue with anyone who says that the Matthews contract made sense when you had Eichel at 8 years 10M per and McDavid at 12.5M 8 years to go off of. He paid 8 year money and got 5 year term, massive blunder.

My issue with Marner's contract is he did better than most UFA wingers, some of them better than he is.

I am beating the dead horse...so I will stop...I think younger Dubas screwed current Dubas, he hasn't been doing too bad lately but he's limited himself because of a stagnant cap.

 

[Confucius]

I think Dubas was worried about an offer sheet on Matthews, not that it can't happen but it was just a poor way of running business, I will forever argue with anyone who says that the Matthews contract made sense when you had Eichel at 8 years 10M per and McDavid at 12.5M 8 years to go off of. He paid 8 year money and got 5 year term, massive blunder.

My issue with Marner's contract is he did better than most UFA wingers, some of them better than he is.

I am beating the dead horse...so I will stop...I think younger Dubas screwed current Dubas, he hasn't been doing too bad lately but he's limited himself because of a stagnant cap.

Not having money to throw around can be a blessing in disguise.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

From Aug 1 2018
Marner's Next Contract

How about an apology?

Exactly my point. There is an upper limit and a lower limit. The lower one is likely around 7MM (no indication he will play worse than last year). The upper one is 10mm. If he put away the right number of points (in my mind 95-100), he is worth the 10MM.
If Dubas insists on paying him what he has produced, Marner will just not sign until next year. If Marner produces a 10MM season, then Dubas clearly had a bad strategy.
How to fix the strategy...
1. Determine the base based on locked in performance (in my mind 7MM)

2. Do a fair assessment of what Marner will produce next year (in my mind better than this year due to better QoT and the elimination of the impact of the early demotion last year….say 80 points)

3. Stress test assumption of worse case scenario (my mind 96 points because it will likely yield a 10MM contract)

Item 2 might put him closer to 8MM
This is defendable position except that if Marner comes to the same conclusion, he is asking himself why would he sign early when there is a possibility that he can get #3..,That is a 2MM difference which is equal to the discount Tavares took on a much higher contract. It is a full 25% of 8MM

How can Dubas incent Marner to sign early? He meets him somewhere in between. Marner (in his mind) will mitigate his own risk against injury and take some team discount. Dubas mitigates his risk of having a 10MM player he can't afford.

8.5MM-8.8MM

Dude. You crushed it.

Proud of you

 

[HamiltonNHL]

What is a good return I say a package, top6 forward + blue chip prospect + 1st + 2nd

We aren’t trading for picks, end of story

 

[Niagara Bill]

10.5$, but will he even be in the conversation for Olympic team. Hyman will, maybe even Reilly, JT will be a consideration.

 

[Dekes For Days]

will he even be in the conversation for Olympic team.

He's a lock.

 

[francis246]

10.5$, but will he even be in the conversation for Olympic team. Hyman will, maybe even Reilly, JT will be a consideration.

he's making the team...

 

[daethfromabove1979]

Why should Marner be on the Canadian Olympic team? He's skilled and puts up regular season points but he is a loser when it counts. Canada can do better than him.

 

[Notsince67]

10.5$, but will he even be in the conversation for Olympic team. Hyman will, maybe even Reilly, JT will be a consideration.

Are you serious?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why should Marner be on the Canadian Olympic team?

Because he's one of the best players in the world.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The mistake was signing the Matthews contract before the Marner one. Always sign the big one last, unless Matthews was getting the Jack Eichel contract of $10M x 8 years, and sign right now the deal is off type of thing. Otherwise there was no rush to announce his first.

I've never understood this train of thought. Matthews was a 1st overall pick, he's a franchise centre, not a pint sized winger so they're not really comparable players. And if Marner's dad claims they are then you just ignore him, simple.

I think Dubas was worried about an offer sheet on Matthews, not that it can't happen but it was just a poor way of running business, I will forever argue with anyone who says that the Matthews contract made sense when you had Eichel at 8 years 10M per and McDavid at 12.5M 8 years to go off of. He paid 8 year money and got 5 year term, massive blunder.

My issue with Marner's contract is he did better than most UFA wingers, some of them better than he is.

I am beating the dead horse...so I will stop...I think younger Dubas screwed current Dubas, he hasn't been doing too bad lately but he's limited himself because of a stagnant cap.

Good summary.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Are you serious?

I said WILL he be. I know others will be for sure. Actually watched a program on the make up of the team and he was not mentioned.
Do you think he will be?
If he is not does that tell us what the hockey community thinks of him, which may be different than the Leafs.

 

[Apex Predator]

I know this is a thread about Marner but I’m sure Dubas has been mentioned already. I think Dubas has learned a lot from the first few years he started. The mistakes he made handelimg the contracts I don’t think he will do that again. He was a rookie GM in a tough spot. The contracts have handcuffed him but it’s a lesson he has learned. We all at some point started a new job/position with no to little experience and made mistakes.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'd still like someone to explain the criteria - what qualifies someone as a Marner hater?