Marner haters right now

[m1ker]

Bunting-Tavares-Marner
Simmonds-Matthews-Spezza
Kase-Kampf-Nylander
Ritchie-Kerfoot-Clifford

Playoff line up. I think Simmonds and spezza would awaken the beast because he will stop passing so much and they’ll grind for him creating space. Oh and maybe he won’t get ragdolled again.

Keefe needs to stop focusing on his main guys and focus on the team as a whole.

 

[ACC1224]

He's playing well but I would fall into the same category as you. It all just came off as greedy and immature; "I want as much as Matthews" that we kept hearing about.

'Greedy and immature' is just a perception, I don't believe that to be the case.
Not signing Matthews first would have avoided all that. That was a colossal mistake by Dubas probably more so than caving to Nylander.

Whole thing has been beaten to death
I already know the various replies that will follow this.

 

[Notsince67]

There are no Marner haters...

 

[Notsince67]

'Greedy and immature' is just a perception, I don't believe that to be the case.
Not signing Matthews first would have avoided all that. That was a colossal mistake by Dubas probably more so than caving to Nylander.

Whole thing has been beaten to death
I already know the various replies that will follow this.

First in....
Dubas should have signed Marner at 8.5mm for 8 years as Marner requested before his last ELC year began.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not signing Matthews first would have avoided all that. That was a colossal mistake by Dubas probably more so than caving to Nylander. I already know the various replies that will follow this.

He didn't sign Matthews first. He signed Nylander first, then signed Matthews due to Marner's unwillingness to negotiate in-season and the need to get him locked up before RFA status, and then signed Marner as soon as possible. Doing so was not a "colossal mistake", and Dubas did not cave to Nylander. You know what the replies will be to this because you've made the same incorrect and disproven statement in pretty much every thread.

 

[Notsince67]

He didn't sign Matthews first. He signed Nylander first, then signed Matthews due to Marner's unwillingness to negotiate in-season and the need to get him locked up before RFA status, and then signed Marner as soon as possible. Doing so was not a "colossal mistake", and Dubas did not cave to Nylander. You know what the replies will be to this because you've made the same incorrect and disproven statement in pretty much every thread.

He took his time with Nylander and with Marner and admitted that was the lesson Lou taught him.

 

[ACC1224]

He took his time with Nylander and with Marner and admitted that was the lesson Lou taught him.

Which is it? Lou a poor teacher or Kyle a poor student.

 

[VanW27]

Which is it? Lou a poor teacher or Kyle a poor student.

Can't it be both?

 

[ACC1224]

Can't it be both?

I was trying to be nice

 

[Notsince67]

Which is it? Lou a poor teacher or Kyle a poor student.

Dumb lesson. Many years ago I worked for GE Capital in the days of Jack Welsh. His motto was "It's better to make a mistake early than make a mistake late"

That was a company that knew how to make money.
The risks were easily articulable in Marner's case and any analysis would have shown what the high range and low range risk and opportunities were. For an analytic guy, he was gambling for little return and risking much.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He took his time with Nylander and with Marner and admitted that was the lesson Lou taught him.

He was somewhat patient with Nylander in the summer of Nylander's contract, at the suggestion of Lou, but we now know that we would have been looking at the same outcome regardless of when the negotiations started intensifying. Nylander waiting until the last minutes in November before calling up Dubas and caving was a not a result of when the negotiation started.

There's really no evidence that Dubas "took his time" with Marner. In fact, I believe he noted a discussion with Marner's agent as the first thing he did as GM. Everything points to Marner wanting to wait, like every other mid-high-end, post-ELC RFA that year; even ones that weren't set to play with Tavares after having their production suppressed by their toxic head coach for years.

 

[ACC1224]

First in....
Dubas should have signed Marner at 8.5mm for 8 years as Marner requested before his last ELC year began.

Dubie must be kicking himself daily for passing up on that. With a rookie GM it was always going to be a work in progress. These lessons will serve him well as his career progresses.

 

[zeke]

it's come down to resorting to blatant fictions in order to criticize Dubas now.

that's progress, i think.

 

[Notsince67]

He was somewhat patient with Nylander in the summer of Nylander's contract, at the suggestion of Lou, but we now know that we would have been looking at the same outcome regardless of when the negotiations started intensifying. Nylander waiting until the last minutes in November before calling up Dubas and caving was a not a result of when the negotiation started.

There's really no evidence that Dubas "took his time" with Marner. In fact, I believe he noted a discussion with Marner's agent as the first thing he did as GM. Everything points to Marner wanting to wait, like every other mid-high-end, post-ELC RFA that year; even ones that weren't set to play with Tavares after having their production suppressed by their toxic head coach for years.

On the contrary. Marners agent came right out and stated Dubas attempted to lowball Marner that summer. Only an idiot would believe that Marner's ask was 11MM over 6 years after a 69 point season. Dubas knew full well that after the season began, all bets were off. Marner would be taking all the risks like injury but he knew a full year with Tavares would yield crazy numbers

 

[Dekes For Days]

On the contrary. Marners agent came right out and stated Dubas attempted to lowball Marner that summer.

Marner's agent said a whole bunch of stupid stuff that wasn't true. That's what Ferris does.

Only an idiot would believe that Marner's ask was 11MM over 6 years after a 69 point season.

Nobody said Marner's ask that summer was 11m x 6, though it's unlikely that Marner was willing to sign for any reasonable amount based on his play to date, if at all. He had more reason to wait it out than every other mid-high-end, post-ELC RFA - all of which also waited it out.

Marner would be taking all the risks like injury but he knew a full year with Tavares would yield crazy numbers

While increased production was expected, nobody really expected Marner to post one of the best pre-signing ELC seasons in the history of the cap era.

 

[freshwind]

signing marner for 8.5 for 8 after year 2 is pretty solid hindsight thinking ... and I know it is pointed out that he had a top 2nd half of the season that 2nd year BUT the reality is that for his first 2 years he was a 60'ish point player, the same as willie ...
2 issues with this scenario ..

1) if marner signs for 8.5 after 130 points in his 1st 2 seasons do you think willie signs for 6.9 with 122 points?
2) signing for 8.5 for 8 years after half a season of production would have been akin to lou signing zaitsev for 7 years after a partial season

in hindsight everyone says they would have signed him at that point, but remember, kypreos was still trying to trade him and spewing that on broadcasts... there were no guarantees he would produce the numbers he has

i may think the cap hit is a tad high at the end of the day but no sane person could have predicted the pandemic and the halt on revenues and cap increases ...

some people may suggest trading mitch, not as a "hater" but as a way to potentially rebalance the roster ... same as some may say it should be auston or willie ... only opinions of the fanbase and nothing to get worked up about

regardless, i suspect something big will happen if they flame out in the playoffs again .. just how big that is time will tell

 

[glue]

Strange thread title, any discussion regarding any of our players is going to have some negative and positive debate. Thread should just be ‘Marner’ like any other player thread. I get that Marner has become a target for some unwarranted opinions, that said I think many appreciate his value and talent and are quite fair when they criticize.

 

[Notsince67]

Marner's agent said a whole bunch of stupid stuff that wasn't true. That's what Ferris does.

Nobody said Marner's ask that summer was 11m x 6, though it's unlikely that Marner was willing to sign for any reasonable amount based on his play to date, if at all. He had more reason to wait it out than every other mid-high-end, post-ELC RFA - all of which also waited it out.

While increased production was expected, nobody really expected Marner to post one of the best pre-signing ELC seasons in the history of the cap era.

Dubas never refuted making an offer after the claim.

 

[ACC1224]

signing marner for 8.5 for 8 after year 2 is pretty solid hindsight thinking ... and I know it is pointed out that he had a top 2nd half of the season that 2nd year BUT the reality is that for his first 2 years he was a 60'ish point player, the same as willie ...
2 issues with this scenario ..

1) if marner signs for 8.5 after 130 points in his 1st 2 seasons do you think willie signs for 6.9 with 122 points?
2) signing for 8.5 for 8 years after half a season of production would have been akin to lou signing zaitsev for 7 years after a partial season

in hindsight everyone says they would have signed him at that point, but remember, kypreos was still trying to trade him and spewing that on broadcasts... there were no guarantees he would produce the numbers he has

i may think the cap hit is a tad high at the end of the day but no sane person could have predicted the pandemic and the halt on revenues and cap increases ...

some people may suggest trading mitch, not as a "hater" but as a way to potentially rebalance the roster ... same as some may say it should be auston or willie ... only opinions of the fanbase and nothing to get worked up about

regardless, i suspect something big will happen if they flame out in the playoffs again .. just how big that is time will tell

Sign Nylander 1st
Sign Marner 2nd
Sign Matthews 3rd

 

[Gary Nylund]

On the contrary. Marners agent came right out and stated Dubas attempted to lowball Marner that summer. Only an idiot would believe that Marner's ask was 11MM over 6 years after a 69 point season. Dubas knew full well that after the season began, all bets were off. Marner would be taking all the risks like injury but he knew a full year with Tavares would yield crazy numbers

Did you mean to say that only an idiot would pay much attention to an agent saying his client is being lowballed during summer negotiations? If so then I agree 100%.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas never refuted making an offer after the claim.

I'm not sure what you're even trying to say here. Why would Dubas say there weren't discussions when there were? That doesn't equate to lowballing. For the record, on those "lowball" comments, Ferris himself stated that they were "taken out of context" and that "in normal negotiations, everyone starts off low, and you get to a common ground". It's time for people to stop pretending they know the intricate details of these negotiations.

 

[NinjaKick]

Marner should have no haters right now

 

[Notsince67]

I'm not sure what you're even trying to say here. Why would Dubas say there weren't discussions when there were? That doesn't equate to lowballing. For the record, on those "lowball" comments, Ferris himself stated that they were "taken out of context" and that "in normal negotiations, everyone starts off low, and you get to a common ground". It's time for people to stop pretending they know the intricate details of these negotiations.

Not from my recollection. His only out of context claim was in relation to Matthews. The reasonableness of the rumored 8.5mm x 8 years resonates. No chance he would have been looking for significantly more.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not from my recollection.

Then your recollection is wrong. Those were his quoted words. Marner had no reason to want to do anything other than wait the year like everybody else. It's time for people to stop pretending they know the intricate details of these negotiations.

 

[ACC1224]

Not from my recollection. His only out of context claim was in relation to Matthews. The reasonableness of the rumored 8.5mm x 8 years resonates. No chance he would have been looking for significantly more.

In hindsight it seems reasonable but at the time Dubas obviously didn't think it so.
I'm sure it's one of his regrets.