Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[Notsince67]

IMO, Marner would not even sign an offer sheet or even listen to offers while he is a Leaf, he will force some kind of deal out of the Leafs.

Why would he need to? Dubas already has his hands up.

 

[Notsince67]

And then he brings up the PK...

He doesnt need to. Shanny already brought it up yesterday on Tim and Sid.

 

[hotpaws]

Trade him in a year. If the Leafs say this is the best we can do in order to keep a competitive team on the ice and a player decides to sign an offer sheet then you either take the picks or you match and trade them as soon as you can. I would prefer the Leafs give Marner their final offer before the end of May and if he doesn't accept it then have him traded by the draft. As I have said, if they can get a return that includes someone like Manson, a good prospect and a good draft pick then I think Toronto is better off taking it unless Marner is willing to sign for 9M. The cap space that would be available with such a trade would allow them to keep Kapanen and Johnsson as well.

Marner isn't going sign for 9m unles it's for 3/4 yrs and our mgmt team which didn't have the balls to trade Willie will never even consider trading Marner

and how do you think it'll play out if they do indeed trade a kid as good as MM has been with his entire prime in front of him because they didn't have the cap space to sign him due to giving 11m per to a ufa who's near the end of his prime ?

and trading any of Kap/Johnson/Marner in a year if we match an offer sheet is all well and good but we still have to fit them under the cap for this season and that may not be possible

 

[DarkKnight]

JT is a better goal scorer than Kadri and Bozak? You don't say.
View attachment 228057

Funny he still puts up higher numbers with Kadri than Willy does with Matthews...... wtf does that say? Give me a break. What is the bitterness with the willy fan club? is it because Marner turned out better or something?
Can't even have a normal discussion anymore.

So getting primary assists is a bad thing now? How many amazing primary assists did this guy generate this year, I mean I've never seen a guy more deserving of an assist to a goal than the magic man this year.

And yes yes you're going to increase your assist total when you set up JT for 13 more even strength goals in a season than he's ever had, and he's been in the league for a decade. Who exactly is helping who here?

 

[DarkKnight]

He doesnt need to. Shanny already brought it up yesterday on Tim and Sid.

Keep fighting the good fight with the duplicitous posters here . It's actually comical to see the same people bending over all year, polishing turds, now scouring every angle to shit on the guy who did it all this year.

What next, he stopped talking pucks to the face the last few games?

 

[18leafsfan18]

The hate for Dubas on here it laughable.

Let's look at 2 contracts signed and after 4 months of play judge them as awful contracts.

Marner isn't even signed yet and posters already saying he overpaid.

The Matthews contract opinions are hilarious. Posters say he is overpaid based on term. Then when questioned on how they determine that he is overpaid on term they have nothing whatsoever to back it up (Why use math or comparables or logic to prove it).

What the hell does overpaid based on term mean ? I've seen posters claim he is overpaid 1 mil based on term, others say 3 mil. When you pull a number out of thin air it's hard for it to have any credibility.

 

[Kiwi]

Of course you do. You are wrong on everything else so why not this.

Do you have an argument in favor of your position? Or are you just going to spout your usual tactless bull****

The better goal scorer and more points over the last two seasons.

This is what a fact based argument looks like, I know that's a bit beyond your pay grade but give it a try

Yeah. So Matthews is the better goal scorer and Marner the better in points over 2 seasons. Is it a tie. You bend over backwards to diminish Marner because you are but hurt over Nylander. Really sad

The better goal scorer? Matthews is one of the best goal scorers in the entire league, he's an elite goal scorer by any sane metric we can use

Players get paid for goals, especially if your elite at it and Matthews is a unicorn in terms of center goal scoring on his ECL, so no it's not a tie
It's not even close

This has nothing to do with Nylander, Marner doesn't deserve Matthews money and only a complete homer would say he does, it's mind numbing you people now want to overpay because its your favourites time to get a new contract

The hypocrisy is mind numbing, if overpaying was bad for the other two it's bad for Marner, you can't have this **** both ways

 

[KuleminFan41]

The problem when you sign a player to an atrocious contract like Dubas did with Matthews is that all the other agents are going to expect an equally or worst case scenario, a slightly less atrocious contract.

Inexperience has cost this organization dearly.

I wonder how much Dubas thinks his "advanced" stats can overcome his terrible cap spending?

And if Dubas doesn't get the contract signed, you'll still say his inexperienced is what put the Leafs into position to deal with offer sheets from other teams and that he should have given Matthews(and Marner)whatever they wanted . I know how fans like you are, no matter what, nothing will satisfy you in terms of what Leafs management does. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Stop believing players owe teams undervalued contracts that isn't how this works. Why not, wait until you know...July before making posts about how awful everything is? There's still the draft and July 1st coming up, plenty of time to make moves, hell the Stanley Cup finals haven't even started yet.. And btw, it was that veteran GM Lou Lamoriello who put Dubas into this cap crunch situation by giving Marleau a 3rd year at 6 million and giving Zaitsev over 4 million for 6 years. But yes, everything is Dubas' fault ....

 

[Kiwi]

Keep fighting the good fight with the duplicitous posters here . It's actually comical to see the same people bending over all year, polishing turds, now scouring every angle to **** on the guy who did it all this year.

What next, he stopped talking pucks to the face the last few games?

Facts are duplicitous? I'd like you to give me one reason why our player should get more money than a guy who had more goals and points over the last two seasons?

Best of luck with that duplicitous fact

 

[Throw More Waffles]

There's one major elephant in the room with that demand:

Mikko Rantanen average PP TOI: 4:05

Mitch Marner average PP TOI: 2:35


Mikko Rantanen EV TOI: 16:44

Mitch Marner EV TOI: 15:53


Mikko Rantanen TOI/GP: 20:51

Mitch Marner TOI/GP: 19:49


Less PP time, less ES time, MORE PK time (minutes where you just don't produce). They will not receive the same contracts, you can clearly see from the different usage pointed out above that Marner has his offensive production artificially suppressed.

But there’s more to the story that balances it out again.

Rantanen scored significantly more goals (and we learned with the Matthews contract that goals matter more). And Rantanen scored in the mid 80’s in points twice , while Marner was stuck in the 60’s his first two season. (And we learned with the Nylander vs Pasta contracts that one much better final elc year doesn’t matter nearly as much as doing it twice.) Rantanen also played 8 less games than Marner, while still putting up more goals and almost as many points (and we learned in the Matthews contract that we can’t use an inability to stay healthy against the player in any way).

Those three things MORE than make up for the less pp and toi argument.

 

[DarkKnight]

Facts are duplicitous? I'd like you to give me one reason why our player should get more money than a guy who had more goals and points over the last two seasons?

Best of luck with that duplicitous fact

Odd you personalized that comment. Wasn't directed at you, you've called out Nylander deal as well.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Imo Rantanen has a stronger case for more money.

Of course he does.

If Marner gets even a penny more than Rantanen, Dubas should be fired.

 

[Jozay]

i'm the one trying to diminish how good players are ? lol

you're trying to fit a players worth into just one category then when it's pointed out to you how absurd that is you can't admit your wrong and instead just double down

as others and i have already said , nothing we post here will have any influence on the salary MM gets so trying to diminish him as a player as you're trying to do will have zero effect on negotiations

and as a Leaf fan i'd love him to take a discount just like i would have loved for Willie to take 6m per and AM to take 9.5m at that term and for JT to have signed for the same cap hit Stamkos did but i;m not going come on here to to spin non sense believing i can diminish his demands

Im not diminishing Marners value, im saying he's not as valuable as Matthews or Tavares lol. Just because I feel like he's not as good or valuable to the team as Matthews and JT doesnt mean im sh*tting on the guy. I never once talked down on his game, I just pointed out the obvious (the obvious being thats he not a center or a particularly strong goal scorer).

Obviously theres other ways that help measure a players value to a team. I chose one universal way of thinking why I believe he isnt as valuable as JT or Matthews, which is that he's not a goal scoring center, which is universally valued more than play making wingers. Hell, just being a center will give a player an extra boost.

Im not trying to influence his negotiations lol. Im stating my opinion on why I think he should get less than JT and Matthews.

 

[IPS]

But there’s more to the story that balances it out again.

Rantanen scored significantly more goals (and we learned with the Matthews contract that goals matter more). And Rantanen scored in the mid 80’s in points twice , while Marner was stuck in the 60’s his first two season. (And we learned with the Nylander vs Pasta contracts that one much better final elc year doesn’t matter nearly as much as doing it twice.) Rantanen also played 8 less games than Marner, while still putting up more goals and almost as many points (and we learned in the Matthews contract that we can’t use an inability to stay healthy against the player in any way).

Those three things MORE than make up for the less pp and toi argument.

Counterpoints:

1. I don't even buy this goals vs assists argument at face value but I'll give a shot anyway. If you look at the dramatic jump in Tavares' EV goal scoring, you can easily conclude that Marner's putting up an impact in ES goals in a largely similar way Rantanen is. In fact Rantanen heavily relied on the PP to put up his goal totals (more than half the kid's goals were on the PP). So it turns out he's heavily relying on that bonus PP time he gets over Marner to put those goal totals up.

2. Yes we did learn in the Nylander vs Pasta contracts that the better final ELC year rules all. But if we're looking at the ELC years as a complete picture, Marner had a vastly superior rookie year to Rantanen. That can easily more than cancel out the deficit in production during their sophomore years (strictly in the context of this argument anyway, plus I could give a more detailed picture in regards to ice-time to show how close they really were in their sophomore years).

"Those three things MORE than make up for the less pp and toi argument." - I sincerely beg to differ.

 

[Al14]

Andersen? if he chokes one more time in the playoffs, I would be looking for another goalie next summer.

I'd be looking to trade him right now. Between his off months during the season, and, his all too timely piss poor playoff games, I'd be looking elsewhere. JMHO.

I think he needs to be part of a platoon tandem. Unforunately, they gave him too big a contract for that to be viable. You can't have 2 goalies taking up $11.0M in cap space.

 

[Bomber0104]

And if Dubas doesn't get the contract signed, you'll still say his inexperienced is what put the Leafs into position to deal with offer sheets from other teams and that he should have given Matthews(and Marner)whatever they wanted . I know how fans like you are, no matter what, nothing will satisfy you in terms of what Leafs management does. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Stop believing players owe teams undervalued contracts that isn't how this works. Why not, wait until you know...July before making posts about how awful everything is? There's still the draft and July 1st coming up, plenty of time to make moves, hell the Stanley Cup finals haven't even started yet.. And btw, it was that veteran GM Lou Lamoriello who put Dubas into this cap crunch situation by giving Marleau a 3rd year at 6 million and giving Zaitsev over 4 million for 6 years. But yes, everything is Dubas' fault ....

Marleau and Zaitsev's contracts were already here when Dubas chose to add, not one, but two $11 million contracts to the team's payroll.

Dubas crunched the team, not Lou, and now Dubas is going to have to dig himself out of the mess he's created for himself.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Marleau and Zaitsev's contracts were already here when Dubas chose to add, not one, but two $11 million contracts to the team's payroll.

Dubas crunched the team, now he's going to have to dig himself out of the mess he's created for himself.

Was Dubas supposed to not sign Tavares and trade Matthews to compensate for Marleau and Zaitsev?

 

[Kiwi]

Odd you personalized that comment. Wasn't directed at you, you've called out Nylander deal as well.

I've called out all of our big RFA deals

I want to know what's duplicitous about stating that the guy with more points and goals over the last two seasons should get paid more? Because that was Menzinger's argument which you took the other side on

 

[Bomber0104]

Was Dubas supposed to not sign Tavares and trade Matthews to compensate for Marleau and Zaitsev?

I probably would have still signed Tavares but the decision was clearly made knowing full well there would be substantial cap casualties for the 2019/20 season.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

or why not just continue to follow the most successful sport in North America which is the NFL and continue to grow the sport league wide like they have ?

eliminating the hard cap and going to a 2 tier league in a sport which is well down the list of sports in the US would kill off at least a third if not half the franchises and reduce the NHL to a fringe sport in the US and a glorified CFL but hey at least we would have a much easier path to win the cup even though few people would give a damn

i also don't understand this mentality that if we don't have a huge advantage instead of a just small one then we're being treated unfairly because we're a large revenue team , maybe it comes from the x-box crowd who believe stacking there team is entertainment and the way real life should be

The third of franchises like Carolina should not even have a top flight professional hockey team. 1 year after winning the Cup only 2 people out of a branch of 100 people even knew what hockey was. and only 1 was a moderate fan. so we are bringing the quality of the game down to their level? and at same time reducing our quality? I could not give a rats *** about Carolina. They should be an ECHL team, if that, where they belong. In Phoenix I could not even give away some tickets I had for a game in an large office there. No one gives a cr*p. When I pay the big bucks that I do I want to watch Montreal, Boston, Chicago, New York and Detroit play. Those people care about their team and are passionate for their hockey. I was in Chicago for their first Cup parade in 2010 and they had over 1M people line the street. There are a select few other teams that can man up and play big boy hockey and then let the free markets prevail and lets get back to best on best hockey. Where only superstars made the league. Limping around supporting these loser hockey markets is dropping the quality and the big boys need to make a lot more dough. Like Barcelona we should have a 50M per guy on our team.

 

[Trapper]

You would, but professional GMs dont seem to think about offersheets the same way. They're clearly considered to be fairly taboo

You would have to think with so many young big names up for contract, good players are getting traded this summer.

 

[Nineteen67]

The offersheet threat can easily come in at $10.5M , just shy of the four 1st round pick compensation.



You can dream all you want but there's not a reason in the world why Marner needs to make concessions to the Leafs when Matthews, Nylander, and Tavares didn't.

They'll take this to July 1st and gain leverage to push the ask to $10+ million..

I know I would.

 

[Nineteen67]

In today’s sports and hockey world , Marner and all the new signings around the league will get 95% of what they want ....
Live with it !
Times have changed , period !
You can talk all you want about hard ball
It ain’t going to happen
You as management , ownership will give them their contract in order that other players and new players will see that you care about winning at all costs ...
Like it or not ... this is the new NHL and another step towards being the replica of the NBA
I abhor salary caps in professional sports , it’s bull**** !
We shouldn’t be talking about contracts and cap hits and blah blah blah parity and anything can happen once in the playoffs
No more dynasties
So let’s get over the facts that no more hard ball with players , cuz if you do , you won’t have a good program ...
The young players have hand and the hammer , that’s what it is now

The Leafs will never push for no salary cap until they start losing money.

 

[Kamiccolo]

My favorite thing is people who go "Oh Marner will point internally for comparable not other teams".

Well where was the internal comparable for Matthews? JT signed 7 UFA years and had higher points than every year of his career. Worst case Matthews should have gotten the JT deal but for 8 years.

If Dubas botches another deal I will be on the fire him train. I like his scouting, I think he is smart. However contracts are a fundamental part of building a successful team. This team will be torn apart in 5 years when they have to pay

Andersen
Rielly
Matthews
Marner
Nylander


All new deals. They have 5 years to win. They better win.

 

[hotpaws]

The hate for Dubas on here it laughable.

Let's look at 2 contracts signed and after 4 months of play judge them as awful contracts.

Marner isn't even signed yet and posters already saying he overpaid.

The Matthews contract opinions are hilarious. Posters say he is overpaid based on term. Then when questioned on how they determine that he is overpaid on term they have nothing whatsoever to back it up (Why use math or comparables or logic to prove it).

What the hell does overpaid based on term mean ? I've seen posters claim he is overpaid 1 mil based on term, others say 3 mil. When you pull a number out of thin air it's hard for it to have any credibility.

either your ignoring why people say he's overpaid or your not on here much

the comparable's most people have stated as the reason he's overpaid at that term is posters are using McD's 12,5 x 8 as the ceiling and Eichel 10 x 8 as the floor

lower term at AM's age has usually meant lower salary because your not buying many ufa's years and your paying a huge premium in the short term but not getting enough of his peak years to justify the short term premium