Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[Throw More Waffles]

Counterpoints:

1. I don't even buy this goals vs assists argument at face value but I'll give a shot anyway. If you look at the dramatic jump in Tavares' EV goal scoring, you can easily conclude that Marner's putting up an impact in ES goals in a largely similar way Rantanen is. In fact Rantanen heavily relied on the PP to put up his goal totals (more than half the kid's goals were on the PP). So it turns out he's heavily relying on that bonus PP time he gets over Marner to put those goal totals up.

2. Yes we did learn in the Nylander vs Pasta contracts that the better final ELC year rules all. But if we're looking at the ELC years as a complete picture, Marner had a vastly superior rookie year to Rantanen. That can easily more than cancel out the deficit in production during their sophomore years (strictly in the context of this argument anyway, plus I could give a more detailed picture in regards to ice-time to show how close they really were in their sophomore years).

"Those three things MORE than make up for the less pp and toi argument." - I sincerely beg to differ.

But we can’t just keep spinning these things around on every player.

Matthews DID make more than comparables, and goals specifically was the rationalization. So we can’t just change all the parameters now that the leaf in question doesn’t score as many goals as comparables.

And Pastrnak wasn’t paid as a 34 goal/70 point guy, and the argument was it’s because he only did it ONCE. So we can’t change the parameters on that with Marner. He was only a 90 point player ONCE, and couldn’t surpass the 60’s his other two seasons. Rantanen was mid 80’s twice. Why did that argument apply to Nylander vs Pastrnak, but not Marner vs Rantanen?

My problem is that the metrics for how players are paid keeps jumping all over the place depending on the strengths of which leaf player we’re talking about.

 

[ULF_55]

But we can’t just keep spinning these things around on every player.

Matthews DID make more than comparables, and goals specifically was the rationalization. So we can’t just change all the parameters now that the leaf in question doesn’t score as many goals as comparables.

And Pastrnak wasn’t paid as a 34 goal/70 point guy, and the argument was it’s because he only did it ONCE. So we can’t change the parameters on that with Marner. He was only a 90 point player ONCE, and couldn’t surpass the 60’s his other two seasons. Rantanen was mid 80’s twice. Why did that argument apply to Nylander vs Pastrnak, but not Marner vs Rantanen?

My problem is that the metrics for how players are paid keeps jumping all over the place depending on which leaf player we’re talking about.

Well as long as they can be traded any reasonable contract would be fine.

I'd suggest you'd have teams lining up with a much bigger package for an 11 per year Matthews than a 11 per year Marner.

 

[Kiwi]

Marner will be signed and will get paid well, he is arguably our best player but the cap will be stretched and I can see a large turn over of players, to get below the cap.

No he isn't, he's arguably our 4th best player

There is no way in hell he's our best player over Matthews and Tavares who are goalscoring franchise level 1C and Rielly our almost franchise level 1D

The hype is bloody ridiculous

 

[LeafsNation75]

And Pastrnak wasn’t paid as a 34 goal/70 point guy, and the argument was it’s because he only did it ONCE. So we can’t change the parameters on that with Marner. He was only a 90 point player ONCE, and couldn’t surpass the 60’s his other two seasons. Rantanen was mid 80’s twice. Why did that argument apply to Nylander vs Pastrnak, but not Marner vs Rantanen?

In Marner's rookie season he had 61 points and in his second season he had 69 points. So you are wrong when you said he couldn't surpass the 60 point mark.

Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[Byron Bitz]

Unless he’s willing to sign for under 10 I would wait to see what Point signs for. Tampa always able to get their players at a discount and Point could be a good comparable for us to use in negotiations with Marner.

 

[Menzinger]

JT is a better goal scorer than Kadri and Bozak? You don't say.
View attachment 228057

Funny he still puts up higher numbers with Kadri than Willy does with Matthews...... wtf does that say? Give me a break. What is the bitterness with the willy fan club? is it because Marner turned out better or something?
Can't even have a normal discussion anymore.

Marner is better than Nylander at this point.

That also doesnt change the reality that Marner benefited a LOT more by playing with JT than folks are able to admit around here

 

[LeafsNation75]

Unless he’s willing to sign for under 10 I would wait to see what Point signs for. Tampa always able to get their players at a discount and Point could be a good comparable for us to use in negotiations with Marner.

I think part of the reason that happened was the influence of Steve Yzerman when he was their GM. So let's see if Julien BriseBois can also talk Point into doing that.

 

[hotpaws]

Was Dubas supposed to not sign Tavares and trade Matthews to compensate for Marleau and Zaitsev?

what Dubas should have done is realized that the kids needed to be paid and he still needed cap for the rest of the roster as well as for the odd mistake every GM makes (1.5m retention on Kessel)

JT was a luxury and not a necessity , a very nice and productive luxury to have but still a luxury .

Dubas should have slapped 9m x 7yrs on the table along with the corporate partners endorsements he lined up for him and said this is best he can do with the situation our cap will be in . Instead he gave him the 2nd highest cap hit in the league , tried to sell it as a sub market contract and expected the kids take sub market deals to compensate for JT's cap hit .

 

[Menzinger]

Keep fighting the good fight with the duplicitous posters here . It's actually comical to see the same people bending over all year, polishing turds, now scouring every angle to **** on the guy who did it all this year.

What next, he stopped talking pucks to the face the last few games?

It's strange that people consider saying something factual - like Marner isnt quite as good as JT - to be "souring" on a guy. JT is one of he best forwards in th league, it's not an insult....

 

[The CyNick]

Unless he’s willing to sign for under 10 I would wait to see what Point signs for. Tampa always able to get their players at a discount and Point could be a good comparable for us to use in negotiations with Marner.

Marner will set the number. Doesn't matter what other RFAs sign for. The player agents already smell blood in the water when dealing with this GM. That's why the nylander failure and then subsequent Matthews failure were so huge. The young GM is like an NFL D that can't stop the run. You better believe every coach will come in with a run heavy gameplan.

 

[Menzinger]

what Dubas should have done is realized that the kids needed to be paid and he still needed cap for the rest of the roster as well as for the odd mistake every GM makes (1.5m retention on Kessel)

JT was a luxury and not a necessity , a very nice and productive luxury to have but still a luxury .

Dubas should have slapped 9m x 7yrs on the table along with the corporate partners endorsements he lined up for him and said this is best he can do with the situation our cap will be in . Instead he gave him the 2nd highest cap hit in the league , tried to sell it as a sub market contract and expected the kids take sub market deals to compensate for JT's cap hit .

The idea that you could sign Matthew's to a 9 million caphit isnt grounded in any sort of reality.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner will be signed and will get paid well, he is arguably our best player but the cap will be stretched and I can see a large turn over of players, to get below the cap.

Yep, pretty much this.
No doubt he's viewed to be on the same level.

 

[LeafsNation75]

what Dubas should have done is realized that the kids needed to be paid and he still needed cap for the rest of the roster as well as for the odd mistake every GM makes (1.5m retention on Kessel)

JT was a luxury and not a necessity , a very nice and productive luxury to have but still a luxury .

Dubas should have slapped 9m x 7yrs on the table along with the corporate partners endorsements he lined up for him and said this is best he can do with the situation our cap will be in . Instead he gave him the 2nd highest cap hit in the league , tried to sell it as a sub market contract and expected the kids take sub market deals to compensate for JT's cap hit .

I wouldn't blame Dubas for retaining the $1.5 million on Kessel's contract. I believe it was Brendan Shanahan who wanted him traded and told Dubas to get it done. Plus let's remember if Kessel is a Maple Leaf in 2016 chances are they never finish last place overall and win the draft lottery with those odds based on the number combinations they got assigned to them.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The idea that you could sign Matthew's to a 9 million caphit isnt grounded in any sort of reality.

But doesn't it make him look smart to say Dubas should have signed Matthews to a better contract? I bet Dubas never even considered that

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In Marner's rookie season he had 61 points and in his second season he had 69 points. So you are wrong when you said he couldn't surpass the 60 point mark.

Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I said Marner never passed “the 60’s” in points, referring to 60-69 points.

 

[hotpaws]

The idea that you could sign Matthew's to a 9 million caphit isnt grounded in any sort of reality.

I was talking about Tavares not AM . No idea how you got i said that's what he should have offered Mathews .

 

[Menzinger]

I wouldn't blame Dubas for retaining the $1.5 million on Kessel's contract. I believe it was Brendan Shanahan who wanted him traded and told Dubas to get it done. Plus let's remember if Kessel is a Maple Leaf in 2016 chances are they never finish last place overall and win the draft lottery with those odds based on the number combinations they got assigned to them.

More recent media reports hae suggested that Shanny did the bulk of the work on the trade.

He seemed to have a severe dislike of Kessel - was the reason why Kessel wasn't given an ACC video tribute during his first game back in Toronto

 

[Menzinger]

I was talking about Tavares not AM . No idea how you got i said that's what he should have offered Mathews .

I misread, apologies.

You still wouldnt have signed JT to that.

 

[nsleaf]

what Dubas should have done is realized that the kids needed to be paid and he still needed cap for the rest of the roster as well as for the odd mistake every GM makes (1.5m retention on Kessel)

JT was a luxury and not a necessity , a very nice and productive luxury to have but still a luxury .

Dubas should have slapped 9m x 7yrs on the table along with the corporate partners endorsements he lined up for him and said this is best he can do with the situation our cap will be in . Instead he gave him the 2nd highest cap hit in the league , tried to sell it as a sub market contract and expected the kids take sub market deals to compensate for JT's cap hit .

This is likely irrelevant though, not worth nearly as much as some believe unless its some sort of national or international endorsement.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Unless he’s willing to sign for under 10 I would wait to see what Point signs for. Tampa always able to get their players at a discount and Point could be a good comparable for us to use in negotiations with Marner.

Tampa actually has to worry late in every season about making payroll. They can negotiate with next to nothing in the bank until subscriber seasons re-ups come in. But Point will wait it out. He knows where Tampa is. He is in no rush. He just may get an offer to good to refuse from Rangers. and he will see where Marner is too. I feel for both Tampa and Toronto as they are in CAP hell right now. I can't see Marner getting anywhere near 15M from anyone else so he will remain a Leaf. Point is a different story if Tampa sticks at 8M he could get a 10.6-12M offer with rangers. Then Tampa would match unless Rangers front loaded it where Tampa just did not have the cash to match.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I said Marner never passed “the 60’s” in points, referring to 60-69 points.

Honestly something like that is so trivial. Does him getting 69 points in 2018 make him look any bad? My god you sound like those non Leafs fans who kept bashing Auston Matthews because he had not got at least 70 points until this season.

 

[LeafsNation75]

More recent media reports hae suggested that Shanny did the bulk of the work on the trade.

He seemed to have a severe dislike of Kessel - was the reason why Kessel wasn't given an ACC video tribute during his first game back in Toronto

I have read those same things and I believe they claim that Shanahan held Kessel responsible for "salute gate" in his final season with Toronto.

 

[DarkKnight]

It's strange that people consider saying something factual - like Marner isnt quite as good as JT - to be "souring" on a guy. JT is one of he best forwards in th league, it's not an insult....

Yes of course, facts are interesting here but on the other thread, well. You don't see how obvious it is do you bro? Not a good look.

Again, I ask you to go look at JT's career 5 v 5 numbers. Consider it educationally I suppose...or better yet just ignore it again because your tortured narrative implodes.

 

[hotpaws]

I wouldn't blame Dubas for retaining the $1.5 million on Kessel's contract. I believe it was Brendan Shanahan who wanted him traded and told Dubas to get it done. Plus let's remember if Kessel is a Maple Leaf in 2016 chances are they never finish last place overall and win the draft lottery with those odds based on the number combinations they got assigned to them.

some people wouldn't blame Dubas for anything , lol but have no problem blaming LL for everything to try to make the Dube's light shine brighter , not saying this is you

LL's gamble on Z didn't work out and he's overpaid by about 1/1.5m and he gave Marleau a year too much when he didn't look into his crystal ball and see JT would sign for us but somehow the same people ignore the team friendly deals with term he signed Rielly/Kads/Andy too and how he managed to dump a much worse player than Kessel in Phaneuf (who Dubas couldn't trade) without retaining salary or long term cap dumps in return .

 

[JT AM da real deal]

what Dubas should have done is realized that the kids needed to be paid and he still needed cap for the rest of the roster as well as for the odd mistake every GM makes (1.5m retention on Kessel)

JT was a luxury and not a necessity , a very nice and productive luxury to have but still a luxury .

Dubas should have slapped 9m x 7yrs on the table along with the corporate partners endorsements he lined up for him and said this is best he can do with the situation our cap will be in . Instead he gave him the 2nd highest cap hit in the league , tried to sell it as a sub market contract and expected the kids take sub market deals to compensate for JT's cap hit .

I don't think it was that easy. Tavares and Marner are hometown kids who people here in Toronto know and have seen play since they were kids. Much easier for someone to buy from them. Matty is relatively unknown around here. Sponsors love the hometown kid angle and a lot easier to pony up the money where they can see a good return on their investment. Matty is quiet and a much harder sell here. I think he had to get the higher AAV. That is where he will get his income. Same with Willy although he is way better looking and the chicks love him so he will get some cash love.