Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[hotpaws]

I misread, apologies.

You still wouldnt have signed JT to that.

maybe , but it's funny how i keep hearing how T-Bays players sign for less because they pay less taxes so there take home pay is the same it would be for players paid more in other markets but the huge endorsements deals we arrange for our players dosen't factor into them taking a lower NHL salary here and having it made up by endorsement money , curious

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Honestly something like that is so trivial. Does him getting 69 points in 2018 make him look any bad? My god you sound like those non Leafs fans who kept bashing Auston Matthews because he had not got at least 70 points until this season.

I’m just using the PRECISE argument that leaf fans used against Pastrnak. Yes, I agree that leaf fans were making a trivial argument against Pastrnak, but I’m just being consistent. How come you didn’t care when leaf fans were using such trivial arguments to rationalize Pastrnaks cheap contract?

When I said a proven 20 goal/60 point player shouldn’t make as much as a proven 34 goal/70 point player, I was told Nylander had TWO years at that level, and Pastrnak only one.

So why does that not now apply to Marner vs Rantanen? Why is there no consistency? Rantanen scored mid 80’s TWICE, and scored significantly higher goals per game both years than Marner, and significantly higher ppg.

 

[LeafsNation75]

some people wouldn't blame Dubas for anything , lol but have no problem blaming LL for everything to try to make the Dube's light shine brighter , not saying this is you

LL's gamble on Z didn't work out and he's overpaid by about 1/1.5m and he gave Marleau a year too much when he didn't look into his crystal ball and see JT would sign for us but somehow the same people ignore the team friendly deals with term he signed Rielly/Kads/Andy too and how he managed to dump a much worse player than Kessel in Phaneuf (who Dubas couldn't trade) without retaining salary or long term cap dumps in return .

Personally speaking I have always complimented Lou for those good moves you mentioned because he deserves it.

However for next season Marleau's contract will be an issue unless he's traded and if Lou was not so insistent on giving Marleau 3 years, Dubas would not be in this situation.

 

[hotpaws]

This is likely irrelevant though, not worth nearly as much as some believe unless its some sort of national or international endorsement.

whatever it's worth it seems none of it is being taken into account during salary negotiations

and i've heard they get varying amounts from a few hundred k to a few million so it's not as overstated as you believe if the numbers are to be believed

 

[Deebo]

I wouldn't blame Dubas for retaining the $1.5 million on Kessel's contract. I believe it was Brendan Shanahan who wanted him traded and told Dubas to get it done. Plus let's remember if Kessel is a Maple Leaf in 2016 chances are they never finish last place overall and win the draft lottery with those odds based on the number combinations they got assigned to them.

IIRC, they had it worked out so they would take on a contract rather than retain on Kessel, but the player in question refused to waive his NTC. I can't remember who the player was.

So the options were retain or let the deal fall through. We have to remember that Phil had a limited NTC, was coming off a 60 point year and had 7 years left at 8M.

There was real danger of the contract becoming an immovable anchor. What if they decided not to deal him to Pittsburgh, and he stayed and went on to have another 60 point year (which is what he produced in the regular season with the Penguins), fail to make the playoffs but get us out of last place.

We got decent assets in Kapanen and the 1st, got out from out of the contract and finished poorly enough to draft Matthews. It must have been a tough decision to retain, but it ended up being the right decision.

 

[MLSE]

I'm going to throw my bet out there right now if it's a long term deal...

8 years 11-11.5 per is what we pay.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So why does that not now apply to Marner vs Rantanen? Why is there no consistency? Rantanen scored mid 80’s TWICE, and scored significantly higher goals per game both years than Marner, and significantly higher ppg.

I'm not saying it was Leafs fans but last year when Rantanen outscored Marner there was a bunch of Leafs haters on here who still claimed what a bust Marner was. It's like a certain ex Leafs fan who once said Matt Barzal is way better than Marner because he had an 85 point rookie season and the Leafs made a mistake not selecting him 4th overall.

 

[LeafsNation75]

IIRC, they had it worked out so they would take on a contract rather than retain on Kessel, but the player in question refused to waive his NTC. I can't remember who the player was.

So the options were retain or let the deal fall through. We have to remember that Phil had a limited NTC, was coming off a 60 point year and had 7 years left at 8M.

There was real danger of the contract becoming an immovable anchor. What if they decided not to deal him to Pittsburgh, and he stayed and went on to have another 60 point year (which is what he produced in the regular season with the Penguins), fail to make the playoffs but get us out of last place.

We got decent assets in Kapanen and the 1st, got out from out of the contract and finished poorly enough to draft Matthews. It must have been a tough decision to retain, but it ended up being the right decision.

I want to say it was Chris Kunitz who would not agree to waive his NTC and play in Toronto.

I also remember that among Kessel's approved team trade list only Pittsburgh was willing to talk about trading for him. So that didn't make it any easier since they could not use another teams deal against Pittsburgh's offer.

 

[ITM]

Personally speaking I have always complimented Lou for those good moves you mentioned because he deserves it.

However for next season Marleau's contract will be an issue unless he's traded and if Lou was not so insistent on giving Marleau 3 years, Dubas would not be in this situation.

Often wondered what Lou's specific contingency was for the third year. Would be shocked if he didn't have one.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Personally speaking I have always complimented Lou for those good moves you mentioned because he deserves it.

However for next season Marleau's contract will be an issue unless he's traded and if Lou was not so insistent on giving Marleau 3 years, Dubas would not be in this situation.

You are a hockey guy and you know better. You know who pushed for Z and Marleau. Both of them got deals they could not refuse from the DON.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

and the DON is stubborn and will never accept responsibility.

 

[Nineteen67]

My favorite thing is people who go "Oh Marner will point internally for comparable not other teams".

Well where was the internal comparable for Matthews? JT signed 7 UFA years and had higher points than every year of his career. Worst case Matthews should have gotten the JT deal but for 8 years.

If Dubas botches another deal I will be on the fire him train. I like his scouting, I think he is smart. However contracts are a fundamental part of building a successful team. This team will be torn apart in 5 years when they have to pay

Andersen
Rielly
Matthews
Marner
Nylander


All new deals. They have 5 years to win. They better win.

Laugh at theagent’s all you want.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

Look at how well Boston is doing btw..... We had a golden opp if we could have gotten by Boston.

 

[hotpaws]

Personally speaking I have always complimented Lou for those good moves you mentioned because he deserves it.

However for next season Marleau's contract will be an issue unless he's traded and if Lou was not so insistent on giving Marleau 3 years, Dubas would not be in this situation.

I wouldn't put it that LL insisted on the 3rd yr , i believe that's what it took to sign him and you could say he should have walked away if Marleau wouldn't sign a 2 yr term and that's fair but the contract was set up to easily move him if he waives which he might since he seems like a quality person and he has to realize his play has dropped off even from last year so i don't know if he wants to just hang around another year and be a bit player while knowing he hurts our cap and forces us to move out players because of him .

Dubas might have to deal with it but he also didn't have to deal with DP's boat anchor of a salary or having to deal with re signing Rielly or Kads if LL didn't gamble and went with a bridge deal for them . Overall Dubas was left in a great situation if all he had to do is deal with one year of Marleau and a slightly overpaid Z .

edit: i also keep forgetting how he made Lupes cap hit disappear , just called him into the office and he was gone , i would have loved to have heard what he said to him , lol

 

[1specter]

I'm going to throw my bet out there right now if it's a long term deal...

8 years 11-11.5 per is what we pay.

Lol, Dubas should be fired if that happens.

 

[Nineteen67]

I don't think it was that easy. Tavares and Marner are hometown kids who people here in Toronto know and have seen play since they were kids. Much easier for someone to buy from them. Matty is relatively unknown around here. Sponsors love the hometown kid angle and a lot easier to pony up the money where they can see a good return on their investment. Matty is quiet and a much harder sell here. I think he had to get the higher AAV. That is where he will get his income. Same with Willy although he is way better looking and the chicks love him so he will get some cash love.

That is backward thinking......less salary but you need to do more ....

 

[LeafsNation75]

I wouldn't put it that LL insisted on the 3rd yr , i believe that's what it took to sign him and you could say he should have walked away if Marleau wouldn't sign a 2 yr term and that's fair but the contract was set up to easily move him if he waives which he might since he seems like a quality person and he has to realize his play has dropped off even from last year so i don't know if he wants to just hand around another year and be a bit player while knowing he hurts our cap and forces us to move out players because of him .

Dubas might have to deal with it but he also didn't have to deal with DP's boat anchor of a salary or having to deal with re signing Rielly or Kads if LL didn't gamble and went with a bridge deal for them . Overall Dubas was left in a great situation if all he had to do is deal with one year of Marleau and a slightly overpaid Z .

I'm sure that Marleau or his agent told Doug Wilson that Toronto was offering him 3 years and they only offered 2 years. Had they matched that I guarantee he remains in San Jose.

I also wonder how easily his contract could be moved since Lou also included a NMC clause.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm sure that Marleau or his agent told Doug Wilson that Toronto was offering him 3 years and they only offered 2 years. Had they matched that I guarantee he remains in San Jose.

I also wonder how easily his contract could be moved since Lou also included a NMC clause.

LL's pretty good at making cap hits disappear and who knows maybe he had an agreement at the time of the deal that if Marleau's play dropped he'd agree to waive . We'll soon find out and with our shitty winters and crap weather overall maybe his wife is saying enough is enough and lets get back to SJ .

 

[LeafsNation75]

LL's pretty good at making cap hits disappear and who knows maybe he had an agreement at the time of the deal that if Marleau's play dropped he'd agree to waive . We'll soon find out and with the our ****ty winters and crap weather overall maybe his wife is saying enough is enough and lets get back to SJ .

I agree because Lou did that with Lupul and Robidas, so we will wait and see what happens with Marleau.

 

[Stephen]

I’m just using the PRECISE argument that leaf fans used against Pastrnak. Yes, I agree that leaf fans were making a trivial argument against Pastrnak, but I’m just being consistent. How come you didn’t care when leaf fans were using such trivial arguments to rationalize Pastrnaks cheap contract?

When I said a proven 20 goal/60 point player shouldn’t make as much as a proven 34 goal/70 point player, I was told Nylander had TWO years at that level, and Pastrnak only one.

So why does that not now apply to Marner vs Rantanen? Why is there no consistency? Rantanen scored mid 80’s TWICE, and scored significantly higher goals per game both years than Marner, and significantly higher ppg.

You have to move away from the notion that David Pastrnak is the benchmark median for all fair RFA contracts. There’s no Pastrnak clause in the NHL CBA.

 

[Kiwi]

I'm going to throw my bet out there right now if it's a long term deal...

8 years 11-11.5 per is what we pay.

**** that

I'd rather bridge him if that's what 8 years is going for

 

[GilmoursCowboyCard]

There's no way Tavares was going to sign for less than he did. He took a cut as is. I agree with those saying he was a nice-to-have rather than a necessity -- and it IS great to have him on this team -- but that contract is going to start to hurt more and more every single year, and in the end Mitch deserves to get paid what he's worth. He's not a centre so he's not going to get as much as Matthews and JT -- at least not here -- but I hope he gets what's coming to him. He's unreal. If he decides to take a team friendly deal, then he's already a legend at 16 years old or whatever he is. But the Leafs management has twisted themselves into a tough spot for sure.

 

[GilmoursCowboyCard]

You have to move away from the notion that David Pastrnak is the benchmark median for all fair RFA contracts. There’s no Pastrnak clause in the NHL CBA.

This.

The faster people forget about that contract the better. Pointing to contracts like that is like when people used to say "Why aren't our seventh round picks turning out like Detroits?"

 

[Bigmarycombo]

Dubas aid Nylander 6.9 when he should have got 5.5-6 like ehlers
Tervainen(sp) Larkin got so he is overpaid by at least a million

Matthews got 11.6 he should have got Eichel money at 10 so overpaid by 1.6 especially on a 5 year deal

Marner should get 9.5 and he will get paid at least 10.5 so he will be overpaid by a million

This is what Dubas has done overpaid by 4-5 million on those three. And people wonder why we have a cap crunch

 

[Duke Silver]

I agree because Lou did that with Lupul and Robidas, so we will wait and see what happens with Marleau.

Lupul and Robidas were perpetually injured, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what Marleau has been for almost his entire career.