Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[Legion34]

they don't make a difference because Dubas can't negotiate a contract and only in T-Bay does the no state tax (which is way overblown to begin with) make one since Yzerman can and no other zero state tax team is getting discounts yet this crap on how it makes a huge difference keeps getting repeated to defend Dubas being bent over

the sad part is how many fans we have that couldn't care less how incompetent out GM is yet feel the need to defend every move he makes , first it was with Burke and now it's with Dubas

You are just seeing what you want to see so you can complain about Dubas. Here are the facts. The leafs have met with the 2 biggest UFA centers since the lockout... Maybe ever. Once with Lou. Once with Kyle.

Stamkos was offered contract and all the endorsement deals were laid out. They had reps from Canadian tire come out. We know that when stamkos has the opportunity to choose between lower taxes with lower AAV and higher gross salary with endorsements.

Stamkos took the tax free bonuses.

That is a fact.

That has nothing to do with Dubas. That was Lou failing.

It showed that endorsements don’t make up the difference. Or stamkos face would be on Canadian tire money as we speak.

We also know that dubas was able to sign willy. When Lou wasn’t. Fact.

We also know that Dubas was able to sign Tavares. When Lou wasn’t. Fact.

You keep repeatjng no other tax free state gets deals.

That’s wrong according to players. Managers. Agents and insiders.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Does that mean he’s as good as McDavid? How do we know what Matthews asked for, aren’t these negotiations private?

his agent commented on the deal after it was signed with something to that effect, like "Auston didn't want to handicap the team by futureproofing his contract with a 15% percentage of cap, so he took less for a shorter team to help keep the team together"

It was his agent's position that Matthews was in the McDavid tier, which of course it would be

 

[biotk]

I agree, I don’t think a winger has ever been paid 10+ Off their elc. Why should Marner be the first?

I think that Kane is the only winger to have ever made 10+ AAV and that was his third contract and after a couple cups. Among wingers making 9 or more next year you would have Kane (10.5), Ovi (9.54), Stone, Kucherov and Benn (all at 9.5).

Making 9 per season, would place him 6th among wingers, and is a ridiculous amount of money for Marner - especially as it can be frontloaded, he makes tons in endorsements, he gets to play for the team he grew up playing for, and he gets to play with Tavares. Again if he refuses 9 per I would trade him without a second thought, especially as I think he is, while a great player, currently over-valued and would bring a great return.

 

[Legion34]

Does that mean he’s as good as McDavid? How do we know what Matthews asked for, aren’t these negotiations private?

Nobody really knows. People speculate after the fact. If they really knew. They would have known at the time. Even if it comes out then. It’s all hypothetical. People say lots of things. But it only matters when pen hits paper.

More likely if anything is that people are feeding the media things for negotiations with Marner.

Matthews and mcdavid have the same agency. If they think Matthews is worth mcdavid money. Then they can

 

[Mr Hockey]

I remember hearing he wanted $14 million if he was to get an 8 year contract.

If Matthews wanted 14 for 8, Marner has to be asking 12 for 8 and will settle for 10.5 for 5, I bet ...

 

[Legion34]

his agent commented on the deal after it was signed with something to that effect, like "Auston didn't want to handicap the team by futureproofing his contract with a 15% percentage of cap, so he took less for a shorter team to help keep the team together"

It was his agent's position that Matthews was in the McDavid tier, which of course it would be

They are from the same agency. I love how people talk about Marner comparing himself to matthews.

People don’t think agencies have heirarchies

 

[Randy Randerson]

They are from the same agency. I love how people talk about Marner comparing himself to matthews.

People don’t think agencies have heirarchies

it's Ferris's prerogative to get Marner as much as possible I guess, but Marner's real comps will be Kucherov and especially Rantanen if that happens first. Centers get a premium

 

[Legion34]

it's Ferris's prerogative to get Marner as much as possible I guess, but Marner's real comps will be Kucherov and especially Rantanen if that happens first. Centers get a premium

Yes. I agree ratanen will be comparable.

He can compare himself to Matthews. But he will look silly

 

[Randy Randerson]

Yes. I agree ratanen will be comparable.

He can compare himself to Matthews. But he will look silly

from your mouth to gods ears. I think it's hard for him or Rantanen to say their worth more than (or even as much as) Kucherov personally

 

[as Pure as Evil]

this is the exact reason the nhl has to work out a new rule for arbitration . this shit is just gonna get more out of hand each year that passes.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You have to move away from the notion that David Pastrnak is the benchmark median for all fair RFA contracts. There’s no Pastrnak clause in the NHL CBA.

I just want consistency.

When I said Nylander deserves less than Pastrnak (20 goal/60 Point career high vs 34/70) I was told over and over and over again that Pastrnak isn’t paid as a 34/70 player because he only did it once during his elc, compared to Nylander doing 60 points twice.

Now many of those VERY same leaf fans are saying the precise opposite when it comes to Rantanen vs Marner.

My criticism is that the metrics they use to measure a players worth changes from leaf player to leaf player. It’s all just a rationalization to defend Dubas and the contracts he's giving out.

I paid attention very VERY carefully at the rationalizations leaf fans used to defend Nylander making as much as Pastrnak. Now I’m just using those very arguments back against them in regards to Marner, and it drives them insane. They are not showing even an attempt at consistency. All the metrics change for them when it’s a LEAF player.

 

[stickty111]

Marner is really overrated.
He's our 4th best player, and only the 5th most important.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

This.

The faster people forget about that contract the better. Pointing to contracts like that is like when people used to say "Why aren't our seventh round picks turning out like Detroits?"

Why are good contracts ignored but horrible contracts like Eichel and Drai set the new benchmark for everybody?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Marner is really overrated.
He's our 4th best player, and only the 5th most important.

Honestly I think he's their 3rd best player after Matthews and Tavares.

 

[Team Cozens]

I remember hearing he wanted $14 million if he was to get an 8 year contract.

That’s insane. Marner should be 9 million on an 8 year contract. Maybe 9.5

 

[LeafsNation75]

Why are good contracts ignored but horrible contracts like Eichel and Drai set the new benchmark for everybody?

Because Draisaitl got his contract based on 1 year of playing with McDavid which heavily inflated his points and everyone said at the time he was overpaid.

Eichel got $10 million AAV after his 2nd season when he scored 24 goals and 33 assists for 57 points. Hell he has still not got 30 goals which a centre of his caliber should get every season.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

they don't make a difference because Dubas can't negotiate a contract and only in T-Bay does the no state tax (which is way overblown to begin with) make one since Yzerman can and no other zero state tax team is getting discounts yet this crap on how it makes a huge difference keeps getting repeated to defend Dubas being bent over

the sad part is how many fans we have that couldn't care less how incompetent out GM is yet feel the need to defend every move he makes , first it was with Burke and now it's with Dubas

I find these other people’s stance MORE negative.

I’m saying (and I think you as well) that the leafs current gm sucks, and we’ll never be competitive given his overpayments.

They counter that with “it’s not our current gm. It’s EVERY gm. Toronto will always have to pay more. ALWAYS.”

Then they call me the negative one for criticizing Dubas’ contracts. It’s nuts.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

Question: why didnt the leafs just sign all 3 of them To 8 year deals 1-2 years ago. Much better contracts.
Or did the players want to wait?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Because Draisaitl got his contract based on 1 year of playing with McDavid which heavily inflated his points and everyone said at the time he was overpaid.

Eichel got $10 million AAV after his 2nd season when he scored 24 goals and 33 assists for 57 points. Hell he has still not got 30 goals which a centre of his caliber should get every season.

You didn’t answer my question though. You pretty much just restated it.

Why do horrible contracts become the new benchmark, but great contracts just don’t seem to “ to count” as comparables?

 

[biotk]

Does that mean he’s as good as McDavid? How do we know what Matthews asked for, aren’t these negotiations private?

McDavid is underpaid and took a team friendly deal. No agent is going to use him as a comparable. I think that Malkin was the likely comparable. Their numbers are pretty comparable for 5v5 and ES through their first 3 seasons, Malkin was D+5 and Matthews D+3, Malkin had big playoff success, but Matthews is the much better goal scorer.

They both signed for 5 years and while Matthews signed for 14.63% of the cap and Malkin 15.34% I wouldn't actually consider it as close as that indicates. When Malkin signed it was already known that it was unlikely the cap was going up for his first year (and it only went up 100K - leaving him at 15.32% for his first year of that contract) whereas when Matthews signed it was already known that the cap was expected to go up to 83M (which would put Matthews at 14.02% of the cap for his first year on the contract, with it likely of additional cap increases coming over the next couple years due to expansion). So while I had said from the get go that it is a bad deal, do I think that Matthews is worth 92% of what Malkin was worth when he signed his second contract? I guess he is not too far out.

 

[BertCorbeau]

You didn’t answer my question though. You pretty much just restated it.

Why do horrible contracts become the new benchmark, but great contracts just don’t seem to “ to count” as comparables?

Because NHL agents are typically always looking to maximize their client's earnings, so they will keep using the inflated contracts as benchmarks in their demands. And with the cap steadily raising, these agents will even ask for more money as they know they will need to negotiate down.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Imo... Matthews f***ed everything up for the leafs and the league, huge overpayment

 

[LeafsNation75]

You didn’t answer my question though. You pretty much just restated it.

Why do horrible contracts become the new benchmark, but great contracts just don’t seem to “ to count” as comparables?

Why do you even care about previous contracts of other players? It's like someone said to you before, there is no rule that Pastrnak's contract must be used since it's worked out for the Bruins.

 

[Kiwi]

Honestly I think he's their 3rd best player after Matthews and Tavares.

After Rielly's season plus his contract situation I'd say he's higher in value than Marner right now

I'm taking the 70 point 1D on a steal of a deal every day of the week that a 10M? Winger, even though the winger is bloody good

That’s insane. Marner should be 9 million on an 8 year contract. Maybe 9.5

I think they were talking about Matthews, although 14M for him was bloody stupid as well

Because NHL agents are typically always looking to maximize their client's earnings, so they will keep using the inflated contracts as benchmarks in their demands. And with the cap steadily raising, these agents will even ask for more money as they know they will need to negotiate down.

With the cap rising your always going to get some salary inflation but what's happening with our RFA'S especially does seem excessive, no not does seem excessive it just is

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Because NHL agents are typically always looking to maximize their client's earnings, so they will keep using the inflated contracts as benchmarks in their demands. And with the cap steadily raising, these agents will even ask for more money as they know they will need to negotiate down.

And GM’s are always looking to minimize the amount they pay their players.

Both groups are involved in the negotiation you know...