Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[LeafingTheWay]

After eveything nylander has shown (double flamingo, quits on the play during the playoffs, holding out for 2 months, 27 points in 54 games, etc) I would not be upset if we traded him for a slight loss.

We have to much committed to forwards and not enough on defense.

But you are probably correct.

After Marner's first 30 games the season before this one, a lot of people wished Marner would be traded for help on D lol.

We are fine cap-wise long-term. We have Sandin, Lilijegren, Dermott that can be locked up for cheap for at least the next 3-6 years at D. That's fantastic. We only have 4 forwords we need to spend big bucks on (Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander I.e The core forwards). Everything else can be filled in for cheap. Guys like Bracco, Moore, Timashov, Brooks, Engvall, Marchment, and even SDA are the next Johnsson/Kapanen/Hyman/Brown filler-ins for us. Heck, we can even lock up Johnsson/Kapanen for cheap for the next 2-3 years.

It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Teams that are actually screwed cap-wise are Winnipeg, Tampa, etc.

 

[Leaf4Life79]

He under performed relative to his new contract by a large margin but I'm expecting that by the end of the contract will be similar to what we saw with Phil Kessel. At the beginning of that contract it seemed like an overpayment based on speculation, but as it will capture his early prime years you'll think of $6.9 million as pretty reasonable by years 2-6.

We shall see, personally I think it was an over payment by large, we shall see =)

 

[Stamkos4life]

I would say our top 4 skaters are Matthew, Marner, Tavares and Rielly.

I should have been more clear but we were talking about the 4 highest paid players on each team. Nylander makes more than morgan

 

[biotk]

But if it comes down to it, nylander has to be the first to go. You cant trade away the younger player who has a career high of 33 more points just because we overpaid nylander and might not get a good return.

5 of the top 6 all-time NHL career point leaders were traded multiple times. No player is bigger than their team. If the Leafs' think that they would be better off trading Matthews they should do it. If the Leafs' think that Marner wants too much and that they can get a really good return for him they should do it.

 

[Stamkos4life]

After Marner's first 30 games the season before this one, a lot of people wished Marner would be traded for help on D lol.

We are fine cap-wise long-term. We have Sandin, Lilijegren, Dermott that can be locked up for cheap for at least the next 3-6 years at D. That's fantastic. We only have 4 forwords we need to spend big bucks on (Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander I.e The core forwards). Everything else can be filled in for cheap. Guys like Bracco, Moore, Timashov, Brooks, Engvall, Marchment, and even SDA are the next Johnsson/Kapanen/Hyman/Brown filler-ins for us. Heck, we can even lock up Johnsson/Kapanen for cheap for the next 2-3 years.

It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Teams that are actually screwed cap-wise are Winnipeg, Tampa, etc.

Re your first paragraph: those posters are probably the same ones that think the nylander contract is good.

Both sandin and lilj are going to have to become top4 defenders for us or else our backend will be atrocious. Also remember rielly is going to get a big raise that we have to account for.

How are Tampa and wpg screwed cap-wise?

Both teams have their star players locked up for a fraction of the price we are paying (minus point and laine)

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

This year Marner played for $875k ELC and put up in 82 games 26 goals 68 assists 94 points.

How much will he produce next year when he is making ~ $10 mil?

The reasonable answer would be about the same 90-100 points, if he continues to play with a #1C and on the #1PP unit.

So the only thing that is going to impact the Leafs is not his production, but his actual cap hit in that Leafs will need to be dumping $9 mil off the roster to accommodate his raise.

Letting Gardiner walk (-$4.05 mil) + dealing Kadri for futures (-$4.5 mil) for cap reasons and replacing them on the roster with Calle Rosen and Nic Petan as regulars would be an example.

So are the Leafs stronger with 95 point Marner ($875k) + Gardiner + #3c Kadri OR 95 point Marner (@$10 mil) + Rosen + #3C Petan for the same # of players and cap hit?

Rinse and repeat that thought process from Matthews moving from $975k to $11.643 mil.

If the Leafs were not good enough to advance past the 1st round with all hands on deck this year while AM and MM where making <$2 mil, then how will cup competitiveness increase if the team is stripping down the roster to accommodate their raises when making > $22 mil?

Kucherov had 65 points as a 22 year old and last year had 128 points.

 

[Stamkos4life]

5 of the top 6 all-time NHL career point leaders were traded multiple times. No player is bigger than their team. If the Leafs' think that they would be better off trading Matthews they should do it. If the Leafs' think that Marner wants too much and that they can get a really good return for him they should do it.

Without looking it up I'm guessing those players were traded before the salary cap was introduced so it's a slightly different scenario.

I agree though, no player is bigger than the team.

But a lot of leafs nation will be and should be angry if we end up losing marner due to nylander.

 

[biotk]

Without looking it up I'm guessing those players were traded before the salary cap was introduced so it's a slightly different scenario.

I agree though, no player is bigger than the team.

But a lot of leafs nation will be and should be angry if we end up losing marner due to nylander.

If the Leafs trade Marner, it wouldn't be because of Nylander; it would be because of Marner. If you can't recognize that I feel sorry for you.

 

[Stamkos4life]

If the Leafs trade Marner, it wouldn't be because of Nylander; it would be because of Marner. If you can't recognize that I feel sorry for you.

If we lose marner it will most likely be due to nylander. If you cannot recognize that I feel sorry for you. (Not really though, it's just a sport).

I feel I was 100% correct that we should've traded nylander last offseason. Who knows, maybe we would still be in the playoffs.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Without looking it up I'm guessing those players were traded before the salary cap was introduced so it's a slightly different scenario.

I agree though, no player is bigger than the team.

But a lot of leafs nation will be and should be angry if we end up losing marner due to nylander.

If the Leafs lose Marner it because of Shanny, Dubas and Babcock couldn't figure out a way to get a deal done and convince Mitch to sign ... its really that simple

 

[stickty111]

Nylander is a comparable player to Marner.
Maybe if Marner showed up in games 6 and 7, we would still be in the playoffs. Dubas should trade him if he asks for too much.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Nylander is a comparable player to Marner.
Maybe if Marner showed up in games 6 and 7, we would still be in the playoffs. Dubas should trade him if he asks for too much.

yea, its Marners fault the Leafs lost game 6 an 7

 

[Notsince67]

Nylander is a comparable player to Marner.
Maybe if Marner showed up in games 6 and 7, we would still be in the playoffs. Dubas should trade him if he asks for too much.

Comparable player in which sport and in which universe?
You really need to lay off the crack.

 

[biotk]

If we lose marner it will most likely be due to nylander. If you cannot recognize that I feel sorry for you. (Not really though, it's just a sport).

No it will not be due to Nylander in any way shape or form. The Leafs have enough cap to sign Marner to a contract on par with Kucherov in terms of hit, but probably also over a significantly shorter term and extremely front loaded - so in other words - a much better contract than Kucherov signed. If Marner doesn't sign it is because he chose not to sign. That would probably be because of world class greed on Marner's part (along with his agent and father). It has nothing to do with Nylander at all.

I feel I was 100% correct that we should've traded nylander last offseason. Who knows, maybe we would still be in the playoffs.

Yeah - who knows. Who knows what the return would have been for Nylander. It is pure speculation. But, you must be 100% correct on your pure speculation. I have always been more than fine with the Leafs trading any of them. Of course it depends on real world situations not just hoping and wishing.

 

[Notsince67]

yea, its Marners fault the Leafs lost game 6 an 7

Its marners fault the leafs won game 1 and 3

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Re your first paragraph: those posters are probably the same ones that think the nylander contract is good.

Both sandin and lilj are going to have to become top4 defenders for us or else our backend will be atrocious. Also remember rielly is going to get a big raise that we have to account for.

How are Tampa and wpg screwed cap-wise?

Both teams have their star players locked up for a fraction of the price we are paying (minus point and laine)

Why would those posters be the same ones that think Nylander contact is good lol? That doesn't make sense. Wouldn't the posters that think Nylander contact is good, be the ones who understand that a small sample size is an outlier and doesn't define a player? Meaning that, these posters would be the ones who understood that Marner's garbage 30 games were an outlier and he would return to his normal amazing self.

Tampa has Callahan, Gourde, Johnson, Palat, Miller EACH signed for ~5 mill each long-term (Callahan expires 2020). Their main stars of Stamkos and Kucherov make 18 mill total (which is good). They have 50 million comitted to their forward-group longterm WITHOUT Point. Add in 8-9 mill for Point... They have 58-59 million comitted to their forward group. Pay raises for Vaseileskly and Sergachev will come in 2020. They do have two top-D in McDonagh and Hedman, but they account for 14 mill. Tampa has a very good problem to have ... lots of talent with little money left to sign their remaining spots. They messed up by signing their non-core guys for such long-term contracts ... gives them no flexibility at all.

In comparison, Toronto has so much flexibility. They only have Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Kadri + Marner long-term. They have Johnsson, Kapanen, Bracco, Hyman, Moore who will be the fillers for much cheaper than the fillers on Tampa's team.

Just take a look at capfriendly.

 

[ktownhockey]

Not a chance, yet! Matthews still has more to do to catch up to McDavid.

I love Matthews and think he will progress but he will never be in the same realm as Mcdavid no matter how much we like him and his game.

 

[ElbowLander]

yea, its Marners fault the Leafs lost game 6 an 7

No Shots in games 4,5 and 6. It might not be his fault they lost but you cant be saying you deserve to be paid the most in the league when you were basically invisible for 3 games.

 

[Mr Hockey]

No Shots in games 4,5 and 6. It might not be his fault they lost but you can't be saying you deserve to be paid the most in the league when you were basically invisible for 3 games.

Tavares line with an injured Hyman had a 36% offensive zone starts in the series, and played the most minutes against McAvoy, Chara, Marchand, Bergeron ... Matthews line had a 54% offensive zone starts in the series.

I'm pretty sure Babcock figured the Tavares and Bergeron lines would cancel each other out in the series and the Leafs had the better #2, 3 and 4th lines for the win. There should be no blame put on Mitch, he fought hard in the series against an elite line

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I bet you those teams had at least 1 defenseman in their top 4 players.

We are going with all 4 forwards.

This has never been done before.

The 2017 cup winning pens did it with Letang sitting in the press box on LTIR. Their list of highest paid players playing in position:

C
C
RW
G
RW
LW
LW

They had Ian Cole at $2.1m

I don’t know why you can’t just try and apply your own critical thinking to what team structure it takes to win a cup instead of constantly trying to compare ours to other teams. Lots of ways to do it bro, but you’re always wrong about your comparisons any way.

- but other teams that won don’t have a player making >$10m
- but other teams have a defenseman in their top 4 salaries

The only comparison you can make is that it is extremely rare for the wealth of prospects that came in all at the same time and did so well so young. Teams that have had that and can keep those great young players and make the playoffs for a decade tend to win multiple cups, even if those kids get paid their worth.

Exciting times ahead.

 

[Lauro]

Nylander is a comparable player to Marner.
Maybe if Marner showed up in games 6 and 7, we would still be in the playoffs. Dubas should trade him if he asks for too much.

Lol, you should take a break from this site. Marner was the reason we won the first games despite playing against the Bergeron and Marchand line. They were still good against them with an injured Hyman during the last games. Lines two and three not stepping up against easier competition was the problem.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Re your first paragraph: those posters are probably the same ones that think the nylander contract is good.

Both sandin and lilj are going to have to become top4 defenders for us or else our backend will be atrocious. Also remember rielly is going to get a big raise that we have to account for.

How are Tampa and wpg screwed cap-wise?

Both teams have their star players locked up for a fraction of the price we are paying (minus point and laine)

Those who think the Nylander contract is good would probably be those that don't knee-jerk on streaks and relatively small samples. So no they wouldn't be the ones professing to trade Marner for D help after his 30 game bad stretch.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

yea, its Marners fault the Leafs lost game 6 an 7

"Fans" come up with the most ridiculous crap. I wouldn't be surprised if half the posters here are basement dwellers with tin foil hats.

 

[Kiwi]

If we lose marner it will most likely be due to nylander. If you cannot recognize that I feel sorry for you. (Not really though, it's just a sport).

I feel I was 100% correct that we should've traded nylander last offseason. Who knows, maybe we would still be in the playoffs.

We can easily offer Marner a "fair" 9.5-10M contract and as we all know Dubas isn't exactly tight when he's dishing out contracts

Iif Marner forces his way out with what could only be rediculous contract demands that's on him, that has literally nothing to do with anybody else on the team including Nylander, it's called "forcing your way out" for a reason

We don't know what was being offered for Nylander but sure if the deal was favorable I'd be onboard with trading him, now if Marner decides to be a prick in contract negotiations like Nylander and ask for more than he's worth are you onboard with trading him to?

 

[Kiwi]

That post was more aimed at the posters who think the nylander contract is fine.

Trading nylander now would most likely result in a fairly bad return, I agree.

But if it comes down to it, nylander has to be the first to go. You cant trade away the younger player who has a career high of 33 more points just because we overpaid nylander and might not get a good return.

The best scenario would be that we keep both and they both outplay their respective contracts.

After eveything nylander has shown (double flamingo, quits on the play during the playoffs, holding out for 2 months, 27 points in 54 games, etc) I would not be upset if we traded him for a slight loss.



We have to much committed to forwards and not enough on defense.

But you are probably correct.

So trade a high value asset at a significant loss so we can give another player miles more money than he deserves

That's some plan

Is it just Marner you want to significantly overpay or are there other guys as well? Also why is it always a decision between Nylander and Marner? Last I looked there were more than two players on the team that could be moved for cap reasons