Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

[Fatass]

Some posters are just way out there

Marner has peaked and because he can’t get 94 points again because other players have not bested their elc year.

They say he isn’t great because he gets assists instead of goals.they give example of 50 goals and 44 assists are better than marner and his 94 points.

Who on our team scored 50 goals. Do they think Matthews can. If they think that then he can improve on his stats but Mitch has peaked,

Marner hate is strong on here for some reason.

Marner IMO is the offensive player on the team. Plus, he plays his guts out every shift. He even does PK! Kid is great. Trade Zaitsev and Nylander for picks. Then there is the dash for Marner.

 

[ACC1224]

TV’s in hotels are either older with poor graphic capabilities, or sometimes even have blockers on them to avoid consoles working on them.

It’s not every away game, just ones where the above issues happen.

Not just Ehlers and Laine either. There’s a lot of athletes that do it across hockey, basketball, even pro wrestling.

We use to drink and chase girls on the road, times have changed.

 

[Mess]

If they don’t already have a deal done, hopefully Shanny has told Marner’s camp there is a deadline to get it done. Either he’s in or out by Weds or Thursday. He can’t be holding them hostage while they’re trying rebuild the D and the bottom of the lineup. Missing the playoffs next year is a very real possibility if they don’t get the work done

June 26th is the date other teams are legally permitted to talk to pending RFA players, without risk of tampering charges. That is only 9 days away.

Ideally Leafs would like to know where they stand prior the entry draft this weekend beginning Friday, as that is when more opportunities exist to reshape your team.

Currently the Marner situation is at the forefront to help understand where the Leafs will sit cap wise next year.

NO Doubt Leafs want Marner back, but the clock is ticking with a very small window now of milestone dates before July 1st, and lots of questioned unanswered and other dominoes needing to fall.

 

[Walshy7]

If they don’t already have a deal done, hopefully Shanny has told Marner’s camp there is a deadline to get it done. Either he’s in or out by Weds or Thursday. He can’t be holding them hostage while they’re trying rebuild the D and the bottom of the lineup. Missing the playoffs next year is a very real possibility if they don’t get the work done

totally agree, need some sort of closure on the issue ASAP. Im sure the leafs management can see right now how close they are if it appears unlikely marner camp budges and the leaf camp has no desire at that price point, move him on for that dman maybe. With losing gardiner and injured dermott and having to resign hainsey (or not) there is far too much work to do to let marner drag this out.

 

[Nineteen67]

totally agree, need some sort of closure on the issue ASAP. Im sure the leafs management can see right now how close they are if it appears unlikely marner camp budges and the leaf camp has no desire at that price point, move him on for that dman maybe. With losing gardiner and injured dermott and having to resign hainsey (or not) there is far too much work to do to let marner drag this out.

If Dubas fumbles and turns the ball over here it could be catastrophic.

 

[Nineteen67]

We use to drink and chase girls on the road, times have changed.

We were men, too.

 

[Stamkos4life]

They absolutely have been paying based on current performance. They pay based on how effective the player is when they are on the ice. You just refuse to believe that players don't get deducted salary due to entire team failure.

Lecavalier fits the bill above, and he even played mostly full seasons. Also since elite players don't get penalized for not scoring points when they aren't on the ice, Malkin is Matthews' best comparable in production and he was made the 2nd highest paid player in the league (tied w/ Ovy and Crosby in salary) before he won any individual awards or a stanley cups. Except Matthews scores more goals when on the ice than all of the above players. FYI players also don't get deducted salary because the whole team gets bottom in the league in PP time.

Sorry for the late reply, had a very busy weekend.

I don't think players get deducted salary due to entire team failure. But do you think players are not rewarded for having a good post season?

Malkin's 22 points > Matthews' 6 points.

Malkin had 85 points in 78 games during his rookie season. Auston had 69.

Malkin had 106 points his 2nd season and came 2nd in league scoring. Matthews had 63 points in 62 games and his ppg would've had him at around ~15th in points..

Matthew's 3rd season he finished with 73 points in 68 games. His ppg would've had him at around ~15th again.

Malkin's 2nd season trumps Austin's first 3 seasons and it isnt even close!

When you take into account Malkin's post season > Matthews post season and 106 points, 2nd in league scoring >> 73 points in 68 games, auston should not be paid 14.63% of the cap.

We are paying matthews based on g/60 and p/60 instead of actual production. Which was my original point. We do not pay based on what they have proven. We hope auston can continue his pace as he gets more ice time but that is not a given. More likely his pace will regress as he gets more fatigued.

I could make a poll if you dont believe me but the majority would say Malkin's first 2 seasons >> matthews' first 3 seasons and the pay should reflect that.

 

[Nineteen67]

June 26th is the date other teams are legally permitted to talk to pending RFA players, without risk of tampering charges. That is only 9 days away.

Ideally Leafs would like to know where they stand prior the entry draft this weekend beginning Friday, as that is when more opportunities exist to reshape your team.

Currently the Marner situation is at the forefront to help understand where the Leafs will sit cap wise next year.

NO Doubt Leafs want Marner back, but the clock is ticking with a very small window now of milestone dates before July 1st, and lots of questioned unanswered and other dominoes needing to fall.

 

[Mess]

totally agree, need some sort of closure on the issue ASAP. Im sure the leafs management can see right now how close they are if it appears unlikely marner camp budges and the leaf camp has no desire at that price point, move him on for that dman maybe. With losing gardiner and injured dermott and having to resign hainsey (or not) there is far too much work to do to let marner drag this out.

Trading Marner would need to be weighed against the possibility of 4 X 1st round picks as compensation for a contact > $10.6 mil per AAV offersheet.

If you have turned the page and decided that the Marner asking price too high, what would be the better return in trade or offersheet picks.

The gamble being " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush" as your including an OS in your situation decision making that may not even come but could be higher, vs trading him for a known return.

If your priorities are;

1) Resign
2A) Trade
2B) OS compensation picks (4 X 1sts)

and the resign train has been taken off the table what is the next best move?

 

[Stamkos4life]

Arvidsson had a career high of 18 points before that, one of many examples of why one single season is not as highly valued as some think. He was never a comparable, and what he did this year has absolutely no bearing on a contract discussion. Which you well know.

If Nylander got 6 million, he would have had the best contract of any player with his kind of case with one exception, Ehlers. He'd have been at almost a full million less than the average of his ten closest comparables.

Any expectation there around is entirely unrealistic.

So you think having two 61 point seasons of 22 and 21 goals (while playing with Matthews because linemates are so important) is worth ~2.75 mil more than an 18 point season and a 61 point 30 goal season?

That means marner is worth at least 3-4 mil more when you consider that he had 33 more points this year than nylander's career high. So you have no issue with marner at 10-11 mil right?

I made an edit to my previous message re you saying we pay based on performance;

Edit: can you name 1 player who was made the 2nd highest paid player in the league after a career high of 73 points? Or with no major awards to their name? Or no deep run into the post season? I can only think of 1.

The leafs have most definitely not been paying based on current performance.​

Any thoughts? I'm just looking for consistency.

 

[Walshy7]

If Dubas fumbles and turns the ball over here it could be catastrophic.

well lets hope they have a walk away point, there is so much work to do this offseason. OR preferably the Marner camp lowers into a comfortable range. I forgot Zaitsev requesting out too!.
Gardiner
Zaitsev
Dermot (injured)
Hainsey

All need paying or moving (except dermott) busy leafs summer which I do like

 

[Walshy7]

Trading Marner would need to be weighed against the possibility of 4 X 1st round picks as compensation for a contact > $10.6 mil per AAV offersheet.

If you have turned the page and decided that the Marner asking price too high, what would be the better return in trade or offersheet picks.

The gamble being " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush" as your including an OS in your situation decision making that may not even come but could be higher, vs trading him for a known return.

If your priorities are;

1) Resign
2A) Trade
2B) OS compensation picks (4 X 1sts)

and the resign train has been taken off the table what is the next best move?

if you can get a top pair dman then 2A is far better for our current position maybe with pluses if the dman isn't that high end

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think we plan on resigning Marner at 10.6M per after he gets an offer sheet. and we budget that way. and if he gets less than 10.6M in an offer sheet then we match and we get an AAV unexpected uptick. I would not rush out to sign him quick at that rate no need. and if he gets more than we take the 4 1st rounders depending on the team. also the pressure can be applied to the sponsor money. if he does not take the 10.5M for 8 years before the draft than the sponsor money goes away for good. He could lose a cool 5M per which is a boatload of money lost per. very east to do for rogers and bell as team owners and partners.

 

[ACC1224]

Trading Marner would need to be weighed against the possibility of 4 X 1st round picks as compensation for a contact > $10.6 mil per AAV offersheet.

If you have turned the page and decided that the Marner asking price too high, what would be the better return in trade or offersheet picks.

The gamble being " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush" as your including an OS in your situation decision making that may not even come but could be higher, vs trading him for a known return.

If your priorities are;

1) Resign
2A) Trade
2B) OS compensation picks (4 X 1sts)

and the resign train has been taken off the table what is the next best move?

2B is by far the least desirable outcome. I'd be very surprised and disappointed if they settled for that.

 

[MyBudJT]

If an injury prone Karlsson with half an ankle gets 11.5 x 8, I think it’s fair to give 22 year old Marner something similar.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I don’t understand how this is going to work, 3 guys making 11+ on the cap, when the coach we have aims for even ice time distribution across all lines. He will need to play those 3 guys 20+mins a night for us to win. His coaching philosophy has to change.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Nelson 6x6, Skinner 9x8. Karlsson has been offered more than Doughty's contract. Kevin Hayes will likely fetch around 7m or more. Yeah some great contracts by some professionals right there.

Again, stars are finally realizing they should be getting paid a lot more than middle 6 players. Get use to it and stop crying.

Isn't this the opposite of argument of those defending Dubas?

What I've been continuously told is that there is a new paradigm in the nhl, where young rfa's in their prime get the big pay days, and it will be ufa's who take a hit. Dubas was "ahead of crowd" and saw this new paradigm approaching when he gave out those dramatic overpayments.

But as the Nelson and Skinner contracts show... that most certainly doesn't seem to be the case...

Most teams were up against the cap ceiling as it was. If every rfa and ufa just makes higher cap percentages than before, how exactly will this work out? Most bottom 6 players already make diddly squat, so paying them less will barely make a dent.

 

[Mess]

2B is by far the least desirable outcome. I'd be very surprised and disappointed if they settled for that.

Those picks are still currency and you could then bundle them with your own draft picks to complete a successful trade to fill immediate roster needs with NHLer(s).

I agree taking 4 X 1sts from 2020-2023 drafts as compensation would have little use to a team that "Win Now Window" is open, as those drafted players would be years away from making any useful impact any time soon, if at all.

Might all come down to cap space for your trade partner and what is best for them if they can't fit Marner themselves.

ex Marner gets an OS worth 4 X 1sts (then by CBA rules you either match and keep and not permitted to trade him for 1 year, or take the 4 X 1sts).

Then you parlay multiple 1sts draft picks to say Winnipeg for Jacob Trouba in trade to pair with Rielly as your top D pairing. Winnipeg due to cap reasons could never deal Trouba for Marner unless much more pieces were involved to help balance not only Leafs cap but Jets as well.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I don’t understand how this is going to work, 3 guys making 11+ on the cap, when the coach we have aims for even ice time distribution across all lines. He will need to play those 3 guys 20+mins a night for us to win. His coaching philosophy has to change.

I highly doubt it

 

[Mad hatter]

If an injury prone Karlsson with half an ankle gets 11.5 x 8, I think it’s fair to give 22 year old Marner something similar.

An argument could be made that Karlsson is the best RD in the league. The last half of the season and playoffs he was phenomenal and basically looked to be back in norris form. I’m a Marner fan but he’s not the best RW in the league but he’s definitely upper echelon. Also RD is probably the most sought after position in the league and imho is more valuable then a RW. I don’t feel Karlsson is a good comparable to Marner for contract talks.

 

[Mess]

I don’t understand how this is going to work, 3 guys making 11+ on the cap, when the coach we have aims for even ice time distribution across all lines. He will need to play those 3 guys 20+mins a night for us to win. His coaching philosophy has to change.

Even ice time is a luxury of a DEEP team where your 3rd line is fully capable of playing a regular shift. Why wouldn't a coach be comfortable giving a Marleau -- Kadri -- Nylander 3rd line ~ 17-18 minutes of TOI/g while exposing a Leafs advantage of another teams 3rd/4th lines that go up against them?

Now Kadri and Marleau might both be gone as cap manipulation moves and Nylander returned to play RW with Matthews.

AJ/Kapanen -- Matthews -- Nylander
Hyman -- Tavares -- Marner

Next year Leafs will have no choice but to play their top 2 lines more because 1/2 you cap is spent only 4 forwards in AM + JT + MM + WN and they will essentially have become due to cap spending be a top 6 and bottom 6 formation with the bottom 6 players now out of necessity mostly Marlies or rookies or inexpensive players. ie Petan, Korshkov, Bracco, Mikheyev, Gauthier, Moore etc as bottom 6 players.

Mikheyev -- Petan -- Brown
Moore -- Gauthier --- Korshkov

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If an injury prone Karlsson with half an ankle gets 11.5 x 8, I think it’s fair to give 22 year old Marner something similar.

Couldn’t others say Matthews is injury prone with half a shoulder?

And if Marner gets 11.5x8, wouldn’t Rantanen, Aho, and Point deserve at least that much as well?

It’s such a weird argument you’re making. Once even ONE gm overpays a ufa, that’s the new benchmark for where rfa contracts should begin?

 

[Peasy]

Isn't this the opposite of argument of those defending Dubas?

What I've been continuously told is that there is a new paradigm in the nhl, where young rfa's in their prime get the big pay days, and it will be ufa's who take a hit. Dubas was "ahead of crowd" and saw this new paradigm approaching when he gave out those dramatic overpayments.

But as the Nelson and Skinner contracts show... that most certainly doesn't seem to be the case...

Most teams were up against the cap ceiling as it was. If every rfa and ufa just makes higher cap percentages than before, how exactly will this work out? Most bottom 6 players already make diddly squat, so paying them less will barely make a dent.

Its more so that regardless of age, the top stars on your team will be paid top dollar, which is what we are continuously seeing now around the NHL. It use to just be that UFA players did, but if your RFA's are your best players, they will now be paid the most regardless.

 

[Nineteen67]

well lets hope they have a walk away point, there is so much work to do this offseason. OR preferably the Marner camp lowers into a comfortable range. I forgot Zaitsev requesting out too!.
Gardiner
Zaitsev
Dermot (injured)
Hainsey

All need paying or moving (except dermott) busy leafs summer which I do like[/QUOTE]

I like it too

 

[Nineteen67]

Trading Marner would need to be weighed against the possibility of 4 X 1st round picks as compensation for a contact > $10.6 mil per AAV offersheet.

If you have turned the page and decided that the Marner asking price too high, what would be the better return in trade or offersheet picks.

The gamble being " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush" as your including an OS in your situation decision making that may not even come but could be higher, vs trading him for a known return.

If your priorities are;

1) Resign
2A) Trade
2B) OS compensation picks (4 X 1sts)

and the resign train has been taken off the table what is the next best move?

1A) Trade Nylander and bite the bullet on a $10.5 to 11 million AAV.