Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

[Rants Mulliniks]

I don't think he's comparing Dubas to himself. He's comparing Dubas to other GM's. You know... the GM's that sign all of their players to fair market value... or better. Non-rookie gm's. Professionals.

Sooooo how come none of the other RFA have signed?

P.S. He said nothing about the contract sizes but the timing. Sizes was you shifting the goalposts of the argument.

 

[biotk]

Has it not raised a red flag to you that Matthews has had like 5 or 6 injuries already in his career?

Other than a bought of Mono, Marner has proven to be a very durable player.

At this point, I don’t know how you can suggest it’s just as likely Marner will miss more games.

No, it hasn't raised a red flag. There is no correlation there at all. Barkov was injured tons in his first couple seasons. Missed far more games than Matthews. Has been fine since. I remember people claiming that McDavid was injury prone after missing significant time to injury in junior and then having much of rookie season cut down to injury. Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos had all proven themselves to be "very durable players" early on. There are very few injury prone players and there are very few players who are impervious to injury. There are mostly players who either got lucky or didn't over a period of time.

 

[kb]

And it could be 3 years from now before you get the benefit of the first one

4 first round picks and the $10 million or so in cap space. No one says you have to use all 4 at the draft.
Sign a UFA like Panarin, Duchene, or Karlsson, and still have 8 first round picks in the next 4 years for upgrades and to keep the pipeline stocked.

Tavares and Hyman will still get their 80 and 40 points without Mitch.....

 

[kb]

No, it hasn't raised a red flag. There is no correlation there at all. Barkov was injured tons in his first couple seasons. Missed far more games than Matthews. Has been fine since. I remember people claiming that McDavid was injury prone after missing significant time to injury in junior and then having much of rookie season cut down to injury. Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos had all proven themselves to be "very durable players" early on. There are very few injury prone players and there are very few players who are impervious to injury. There are mostly players who either got lucky or didn't over a period of time.

Honestly, that red flag excuse is a rather feeble effort to push a narrative.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Sooooo how come none of the other RFA have signed?

P.S. He said nothing about the contract sizes but the timing. Sizes was you shifting the goalposts of the argument.

Yeah, well the other guy defended Dubas by saying "Have you ever negotiated a contract? It takes two to tango."

I then took the opportunity to point out how horrible Dubas has been in relation to other gm's. Contract sizes/term are part of a gm's job. Arguably the most important part of their job.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Yeah, well the other guy defended Dubas by saying "Have you ever negotiated a contract? It takes two to tango."

I then took the opportunity to point out how horrible Dubas has been in relation to other gm's. Contract sizes/term are part of a gm's job. Arguably the most important part of their job.

One of the two shifted goalposts in the conversation. It wasn't him.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Hard to say. I expect ~100 points over 82 or he should be subjected to a lot of criticism. Powerplay performance improvements by the team could net him a bucket load.

Would Marner really get a lot of criticism if he doesn't elevate his game?

Nylander held out till the last possible moment for as big of an overpayment he could get. He then went on a 10 point/40 goal pace over 82.

The majority of fans on this forum make nothing but excuses for him. The media borderline ignores him entirely and just pretends it didn't happen. After Matthews signed his unprecedented contract, he completely disappeared for the next 2 months, playing the worst hockey he ever has as a leaf.
Not a peep.

I'm pretty sure leaf fans at large have become flat out complacent. The organization has been so horrible for so long that all we can do is hope it's getting better, regardless of what the cold hard facts are bellowing right into our ears.

 

[Nineteen67]

TV’s in hotels are either older with poor graphic capabilities, or sometimes even have blockers on them to avoid consoles working on them.

It’s not every away game, just ones where the above issues happen.

Not just Ehlers and Laine either. There’s a lot of athletes that do it across hockey, basketball, even pro wrestling.

I’m surprised Hotels that frequently have athletes staying don’t have TVs available for a tidy 59.99 per night.

 

[biotk]

This is hilarious. For half his career, Marner has been producing at a 95 point pace. Why do you think he peaked at 22?

Staal had a 100 point season and then 28 points in the playoffs at the age of 21. He has never come close again. Renberg had 82 points at 21. Never hit 60 after that. Crosby never again equaled the number he hit at 19. Stamkos spent years not coming close to the numbers he put up at 20 - 22. Seguin topped out at 22. Lots of players found themselves in an ideal set of circumstances where their numbers were inflated during an early season and never managed to top that again. I think that was the case for Marner this season. 50/50 that he tops 94 points going forward.

Has nothing to do with my feelings towards the individual player. Last summer I said it was very doubtful that either Matthews or Nylander would be as productive at 5v5 this year as they were in 2017/18. I also said that it was very doubtful that Marner would be as productive on the PP this season as he was in 2017/18. Next season I expect that Marner's production at 5v5 will drop quite a bit and I don't see him making up much of that on the PP.

 

[LaPlante94]

I never said that we’d keep those 1st round picks... but even if you trade them, youre not going to get anywhere near Marner quality in return.

It’s just as likely as the picks will be in the 22-31 range as it would in the 1-10 range. That is a risk I have no interest in taking.

If you get a young top pairing d man with those picks and even 1 lottery pick then it's already around the same quality as Marner when it comes to the team. I'll take a young elite top pairing d man over a young elite top line winger anyday and idk who wouldn't. I get what you're saying and if there's no young top d man available via trade then obviously you'd keep him over the picks.

 

[HolyCrap]

I’m surprised Hotels that frequently have athletes staying don’t have TVs available for a tidy 59.99 per night.

Wanna go half and half on the dragons den and propose a fully functional gamer room mobile and ready to go at hotel rooms. I think we could be millionaires. Lol

 

[diceman934]

Staal had a 100 point season and then 28 points in the playoffs at the age of 21. He has never come close again. Renberg had 82 points at 21. Never hit 60 after that. Crosby never again equaled the number he hit at 19. Stamkos spent years not coming close to the numbers he put up at 20 - 22. Seguin topped out at 22. Lots of players found themselves in an ideal set of circumstances where their numbers were inflated during an early season and never managed to top that again. I think that was the case for Marner this season. 50/50 that he tops 94 points going forward.

Has nothing to do with my feelings towards the individual player. Last summer I said it was very doubtful that either Matthews or Nylander would be as productive at 5v5 this year as they were in 2017/18. I also said that it was very doubtful that Marner would be as productive on the PP this season as he was in 2017/18. Next season I expect that Marner's production at 5v5 will drop quite a bit and I don't see him making up much of that on the PP.

Lol. Lmao you are really stretching. Marner will be a similar ppg player for a long time and will get over 100 if he is used more at even strength.

 

[Notsince67]

Lol. Lmao you are really stretching. Marner will be a similar ppg player for a long time and will get over 100 if he is used more at even strength.

I honestly believe that Marner expects that output from himself. He will be working hard in the off season to improve his shot further. Maybe he decides that he wants more goals The kid plays an honest 200ft game and it is clear that he didnt cheat himself to 94 points.

 

[Mr Hockey]

IMO, I think he will be looking for 30-35 goals and a 100+ season, I think he will get it

 

[diceman934]

I honestly believe that Marner expects that output from himself. He will be working hard in the off season to improve his shot further. Maybe he decides that he wants more goals The kid plays an honest 200ft game and it is clear that he didnt cheat himself to 94 points.

They will have a different left winger to start the season, perhaps someone with some more offensive flair. This could make them the highest scoring line in hockey.

 

[MyBudJT]

If you get a young top pairing d man with those picks and even 1 lottery pick then it's already around the same quality as Marner when it comes to the team. I'll take a young elite top pairing d man over a young elite top line winger anyday and idk who wouldn't. I get what you're saying and if there's no young top d man available via trade then obviously you'd keep him over the picks.

Yeah, we wil agree to disagree here. I’m not saying your thoughts aren’t possible, but it’s unlikely IMO.

Maybe it’s how we value Marner though. I think Marner is going to be a top 10-15 player in the NHL for quite a while.

 

[Leafidelity]

How, and maybe more importantly, why, would something like that bring you so much joy?

Look at the name, look at the comments. Not a real Leafs fan.

 

[Peasy]

I don't think he's comparing Dubas to himself. He's comparing Dubas to other GM's. You know... the GM's that sign all of their players to fair market value... or better. Non-rookie gm's. Professionals.

Nelson 6x6, Skinner 9x8. Karlsson has been offered more than Doughty's contract. Kevin Hayes will likely fetch around 7m or more. Yeah some great contracts by some professionals right there.

Again, stars are finally realizing they should be getting paid a lot more than middle 6 players. Get use to it and stop crying.

 

[Trapper]

Nelson 6x6, Skinner 9x8. Karlsson has been offered more than Doughty's contract. Kevin Hayes will likely fetch around 7m or more. Yeah some great contracts by some professionals right there.

Again, stars are finally realizing they should be getting paid a lot more than middle 6 players. Get use to it and stop crying.

The salary structure is changing and the NHL/cap hasn’t learned to deal with it yet.

21 year olds are coming out of ELC to multi-million dollar contracts.

It’s going to have a ripple effect through the system and probably be a major factor next bargaining session.

 

[Peasy]

The salary structure is changing and the NHL/cap hasn’t learned to deal with it yet.

21 year olds are coming out of ELC to multi-million dollar contracts.

It’s going to have a ripple effect through the system and probably be a major factor next bargaining session.

Definitely. Can't imagine the majority of the NHLPA will be happy with the way contracts are going. The top 15-25% will be getting the majority of the money now. Not really sure what they can do to try and stop that from happening though.

It use to be that players got paid once they finally hit UFA. But finally, players, agents and GMs now realize that a players prime is actually during the RFA years, not their UFA years so the market is adjusting accordingly.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Would Marner really get a lot of criticism if he doesn't elevate his game?

Nylander held out till the last possible moment for as big of an overpayment he could get. He then went on a 10 point/40 goal pace over 82.

The majority of fans on this forum make nothing but excuses for him. The media borderline ignores him entirely and just pretends it didn't happen. After Matthews signed his unprecedented contract, he completely disappeared for the next 2 months, playing the worst hockey he ever has as a leaf.
Not a peep.

I'm pretty sure leaf fans at large have become flat out complacent. The organization has been so horrible for so long that all we can do is hope it's getting better, regardless of what the cold hard facts are bellowing right into our ears.

Worst hockey as a Leaf? He certainly didn't tear up the league to finish out the season but he had 27 points in the last 30 games, a 0.9 ppg clip, just shy of his 0.96 career average and certainly better than his 0.84 ppg in his rookie year. Kind of a dramatic statement I would say. He basically played at a disappointing career average pace (disappointing mostly because I'm of the opinion they signed him early and overpaid to get it done early hoping his funk at the time was due to contract distractions). I personally think he was still injured for some or maybe all of the remainder of the season.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

IMO, I think he will be looking for 30-35 goals and a 100+ season, I think he will get it

Unless Babcock starts loading lines and Marner starts shooting a hell of a lot more I think 100 points is tough right now and 30-35 goals is a huge stretch for Marner.

He had as good of a season as we could ask for him with Hyman having a career year and Tavares banking in most of his chances along with a career year from Rielly on that PP unit.

I want him to get there, I really do, but we need a Tampa, Boston, or Colorado level top line LW for him to get there consistently IMO.

 

[supsens]

Yeah guys... hes comparing him to all the other GMs that have already signed their own restricted free agents like Laine, Aho, Point, Connor, Tkachuk, Rantanen, etc.

Those professional GMs who have already got those guys signed.

The owners are trying to enforce the cheapo RFA rule and the players want full money deals. I wonder who's going to blink first.

 

[Bigmarycombo]

Some posters are just way out there

Marner has peaked and because he can’t get 94 points again because other players have not bested their elc year.

They say he isn’t great because he gets assists instead of goals.they give example of 50 goals and 44 assists are better than marner and his 94 points.

Who on our team scored 50 goals. Do they think Matthews can. If they think that then he can improve on his stats but Mitch has peaked,

Marner hate is strong on here for some reason.

 

[Nineteen67]

If they don’t already have a deal done, hopefully Shanny has told Marner’s camp there is a deadline to get it done. Either he’s in or out by Weds or Thursday. He can’t be holding them hostage while they’re trying rebuild the D and the bottom of the lineup. Missing the playoffs next year is a very real possibility if they don’t get the work done