Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

[Nineteen67]

So? Dubas doesn’t need to trade Willie unless it is a package that make sense. Like I said, Willie is not a cap dump like Lucic.

Nor Marleau.

They’ll get good player and likely one that’ll try in the p,ayoffs. Which is a far cry better than what they have.

 

[The90]

I think the "left money on the table" has to be investigated here.

One steak 2 kids, you give the entire steak to 1 and say we love you both but Fred got an A, you only got a B.

I think the "left money on the table" has to be investigated here.

One steak 2 kids, you give the entire steak to 1 and say we love you both but Fred got an A, you only got a B.

Well aside from picking apart one line of what I said, the point of ‘he deserves x but should take y to play for my beloved leafs’ still applies

 

[MyBudJT]

4 1st round picks and a 2nd are spare parts? I'm not even going to point out you don't know where those picks will end up I'd just like you to explain the first bit

Spare parts as in: None of them will become as good as Marner, nor will they "add up" to be as good as Marner. You'd be lucky if 3/4 of those first round picks turn out, and you'd be lucky if 1/4 picks turn into a 1st line/top pair player, let alone one that has 100+ point potential.

Barrel-16th overall
Pasternak- 25th overall
Boeser- 23rd overall
All of them were pretty much picked where they were supposed to.

Senyshyn - 1 before Barzal
Jared McCann - 1 before Pastrnak
Samsanov - 1 before Boeser

What is your point exactly?

Well I have Kucherov and Stone who just signed 9.5M×8 year contracts recently that ate a ton of UFA years and are significantly better players than Marner to back my argument

Now explain to me how Marner's taking a discount if he accepts 10M×7?

You people have lost your bloody minds, he should be laughed out of the room if he even breaths 12.5M

Neither of them scored 90 points in their ELC contracts. Marner has a very good chance at being better than both... and possibly as soon as next season.

You're acting like Marner has reached his peak... meanwhile use players like Kucherov and Stone as comparables who are peaking / have peaked in their mid-late 20s.

 

[Kiwi]

Spare parts as in: None of them will become as good as Marner, nor will they "add up" to be as good as Marner. You'd be lucky if 3/4 of those first round picks turn out, and you'd be lucky if 1/4 picks turn into a 1st line/top pair player, let alone one that has 100+ point potential.



Senyshyn - 1 before Barzal
Jared McCann - 1 before Pastrnak
Samsanov - 1 before Boeser

What is your point exactly?



Neither of them scored 90 points in their ELC contracts. Marner has a very good chance at being better than both... and possibly as soon as next season.

You're acting like Marner has reached his peak... meanwhile use players like Kucherov and Stone as comparables who are peaking / have peaked in their mid-late 20s.

You don't know that, in fact you don't even know where those picks end up, do you remember Ottowa?
Then we already have 2 franchise level #1C and having assets and cap space to fill around them massively helps, sinking 12.5M into a winger when you already have high end talent to build around is highly questionable

I want to know what comparable your using to justify your assertion Marner is taking a discount at 10×7, UFA wingers with outstanding records dont make that so why is one with multiple RFA years?

I never wrote Marner has peaked, I want to know how the hell you people are getting to 10M×7 is a discount

 

[diceman934]

You ***** about other people being fanboys of certain players while being exactly the same if not worse about guys you like, it's getting bloody old

Marner is a player, nothing more nothing less and he should be treated as such, if that means we get better trading him he should be traded just like every other player on our roster

We aren't the Toronto Maple Marner's or the Toronto Maple Nylander's
We're the Toronto Maple Leafs

True hurts. I am a Leaf fan. You are a Nylander fan been proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

 

[diceman934]

You don't know that, in fact you don't even know where those picks end up, do you remember Ottowa?
Then we already have 2 franchise level #1C and having assets and cap space to fill around them massively helps, sinking 12.5M into a winger when you already have high end talent to build around is highly questionable

I want to know what comparable your using to justify your assertion Marner is taking a discount at 10×7, UFA wingers with outstanding records dont make that so why is one with multiple RFA years?

I never wrote Marner has peaked, I want to know how the hell you people are getting to 10M×7 is a discount

It would be a huge discount if he signed for 10m x 7 years. I doubt he signs that cheap or that long.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Tavares is a nice #1 center and he has a nice touch in and around the net but he does not dominate games or even shifts.

 

[diceman934]

You don't know that, in fact you don't even know where those picks end up, do you remember Ottowa?
Then we already have 2 franchise level #1C and having assets and cap space to fill around them massively helps, sinking 12.5M into a winger when you already have high end talent to build around is highly questionable

I want to know what comparable your using to justify your assertion Marner is taking a discount at 10×7, UFA wingers with outstanding records dont make that so why is one with multiple RFA years?

I never wrote Marner has peaked, I want to know how the hell you people are getting to 10M×7 is a discount

You seem to have lost the script. Marner is our best player. If we need more cap space we trade others to get the needed cap space. You do not trade or get rid of your best player to free up cap space.

 

[diceman934]

Tavares is a nice #1 center and he has a nice touch in and around the net but he does not dominate games or even shifts.

That was very obvious in the playoffs when he attempted to be a one man show. He failed to distribute the puck and attempted to be a hero far to often.

 

[Legion34]

The JT contract is not being disputed. You expect to overpay to get an elite UFA to switch teams.

Matthews is grossly overpaid based on the term of the deal.

You seemed to say matthews and marner are close in points. One guy was close to 100 and the other guy barely cracked 70.

As for the centre- wing thing. Kane got the same deal as Toews. Who would you rather have today?

And matthews isn't even elite at the position yet. He was a minus player on a team that had one of the best plus minus in the league and he didn't even draw the top defenders or centers most of the season.

I think both guys are superb talents. I want them both here as long ad possible, but this weak narrative that Marner is inferior to matthews has no legs to stand on. Marner is on his way to becoming one of the best 200ft players in the league. Matthews isn't there nor anywhere close.

Just to be clear. 94 is close to 100 and 73 is barely cracking 70?

 

[MyBudJT]

You seem to have lost the script. Marner is our best player. If we need more cap space we trade others to get the needed cap space. You do not trade or get rid of your best player to free up cap space.

I wouldn’t even say it matters whether you think he is the best player in the league or not.

Can we all agree he has potential to be a top 10-15 player in the league? And sooner rather than later? You don’t trade that for cap concerns.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Projecting Mitch Marner's next contract

Verdict: 6 years, $55.5 million ($9.25M AAV)

Plus the Dubas Negotiation Premium, the Babcock Saskatchewan Science™ Incentive, and the Putting Up With The Toronto Media Circus Bonus. Which adds up to $10.516M AAV.

 

[diceman934]

Plus the Dubas Negotiation Premium, the Babcock Saskatchewan Science™ Incentive, and the Putting Up With The Toronto Media Circus Bonus. Which adds up to $10.516M AAV.

I have said along that 10.5 is the number.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I have said along that 10.5 is the number.

Me too. Just made it $16,000 prettier.

 

[Kiwi]

It would be a huge discount if he signed for 10m x 7 years. I doubt he signs that cheap or that long.

The highest RFA winger contract in league history by an absolute mile is a discount? Jesus you people have lost your minds

Makes Nylander's ass of a contract look positively "team friendly", which RFA contract will be the worst in league history? Matthews or Marner so roll up and place your bets now

You seem to have lost the script. Marner is our best player. If we need more cap space we trade others to get the needed cap space. You do not trade or get rid of your best player to free up cap space.

It's called lost the plot
He's not our best player you homer
You trade guys who make insane salary demands they don't deserve (like 12.5M) especially if the player is a winger and you have a magical thing called a hard salary cap

True hurts. I am a Leaf fan. You are a Nylander fan been proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

What is getting old is posters like your self being transparent and redundant

I've talked about trading all our players, Nylander included because I don't particularly like most of our guys on a personal level, there not a very likable bunch

I do admire how little self reflection you show though, it's a beautiful thing to watch

 

[HolyCrap]

Just back the brinks truck up and give him whatever he wants. Because you just cannot lose a winger like Marner. He has all the cards and leafs would be foolish not to move other players to accommodate him.

Am I doing this right? I’m wondering if some of these posters are actually Oilers fans. This is crazy.

 

[thewave]

Clearly they won't get a deal done. Go for Duchene and EK and trade Kadri and Marner to restock the cupboards.

 

[GardinerTheForward]

I wish we sat nylander and then signed these chumps at (even slightly) better deals for the club

 

[KIWILEAFFAN]

Marner is a great player and a hometown boy but he is replaceable imo.
He should get paid to a comparible standard surely.
But if he is genuinely asking to be paid as much or as close to another player on the team who is overpaid, see ya later.
If the team can get better by trading his entitled ass I would do it.

 

[AreBe]

You take the 4 consecutive first round lottery picks. Trading 4 consecutive first round picks is flat out crazy stupid. Nuttersville. So that means the GM parting with them is running his team badly. Which means you are getting really good lottery picks.

That GM who takes Marner and gives us 4 hall of famers has a team full of Patrick O'Thuggos and is busy trying to score from the penalty box, whereas the Leafs, with the golden age of reason in Leafs management through an in-house analytics department, is trying to win with a thinking man's hockey and keeps drafting and developing those European Ivan Svenskys.

It's against the rules in the NBA to not have at least 1 first round pick of any description (could be from another team) every 2 years. You cannot go 2 years without a 1st round pick in the NBA because the consequences are so catastrophic for the team losing the picks and the team getting them is pissing themselves laughing! "In total, the Stepien rule prevents NBA teams from making any transaction that could leave them without any first-round picks in any two consecutive future drafts in any scenario for any reason." CBA Encyclopedia: Stepien Rule
The rule reads

“7.03. First Round Draft Choice. No Member may sell its rights to select a player in the first round of any NBA Draft for cash or its equivalent, or trade or exchange its right to select a player in the first round of any NBA Draft if the result of such trade or exchange may be to leave the Member without first-round picks in any two (2) consecutive future NBA Drafts.”

Losing 4 consecutive first round picks in the NHL is completely against the rules of the NBA unless you acquire other first round picks from someone else. And trading first round picks hurts your ability to sign restricted free agents.

If some idiot gives you 4 hall of famers, you take them.

In 1981, the league took the bold step of preventing the Cavs from trading future draft picks without league approval. While the NBA stopped that policy at the end of the 81-82 season, the Stepien rule arose from the fear of another owner being similarly reckless with draft picks. Remarkably, Stepien was out as owner before most of those drafts even occurred, selling the team to Gordon Gund in 1983. Even more remarkably, the league gave the Cavs compensatory first-round picks in 1983, 1984, 1985 and 1986, presumably to keep the franchise afloat after the ownership change. Cleveland’s trade partners were allowed to keep their picks as well, with Derek Harper (1983), Sam Perkins (1984), Detlef Schrempf (1985) and Roy Tarpley (1986) eventually becoming the four players taken with the Stepien-traded selections.

CBA Encyclopedia: Stepien Rule

 

[IPS]

You take the 4 consecutive first round lottery picks. Trading 4 consecutive first round picks is flat out crazy stupid. Nuttersville. So that means the GM parting with them is running his team badly. Which means you are getting really good lottery picks.

The offer sheet idea is a pure fabrication.

Speaking of golden eras, we are truly in the era of clickbait. You can put out an article not telling one ounce of truth and your credibility will remain 100% intact. Honesty and integrity is not required anymore.

 

[HolyCrap]

You take the 4 consecutive first round lottery picks. Trading 4 consecutive first round picks is flat out crazy stupid. Nuttersville. So that means the GM parting with them is running his team badly. Which means you are getting really good lottery picks.

That GM who takes Marner and gives us 4 hall of famers has a team full of Patrick O'Thuggos and is busy trying to score from the penalty box, whereas the Leafs, with the golden age of reason in Leafs management through an in-house analytics department, is trying to win with a thinking man's hockey and keeps drafting and developing those European Ivan Svenskys.

It's against the rules in the NBA to not have at least 1 first round pick of any description (could be from another team) every 2 years. You cannot go 2 years without a 1st round pick in the NBA because the consequences are so catastrophic for the team losing the picks and the team getting them is pissing themselves laughing! "In total, the Stepien rule prevents NBA teams from making any transaction that could leave them without any first-round picks in any two consecutive future drafts in any scenario for any reason." CBA Encyclopedia: Stepien Rule
The rule reads


Losing 4 consecutive first round picks in the NHL is completely against the rules of the NBA unless you acquire other first round picks from someone else. And trading first round picks hurts your ability to sign restricted free agents.

If some idiot gives you 4 hall of famers, you take them.

CBA Encyclopedia: Stepien Rule

Yeah but four first round picks and the cap space is considered spare parts by some fans here.

 

[NiL8r87]

Tavares is a nice #1 center and he has a nice touch in and around the net but he does not dominate games or even shifts.

Wait what? That's literally what he does lol. He's basically a slightly lesser Crosby in terms of his style.

 

[Brown Dog]

This all comes down to the threat of an offer sheet. As an RFA, that's Marner's leverage.

Will another team offer sheet him? And how much would that team have to offer that Leafs don't match? Is an unmatchable offer sheet a realistic possibility? If not, let him sit until he comes back to Earth or gets the offer he's looking for.

 

[AreBe]

Yeah but four first round picks and the cap space is considered spare parts by some fans here.

When you have a hard salary cap you need to keep your first round picks and use them wisely! You get to control your own players, as they are yours, you do not have to go acquiring them as unrestricted or restricted free agents or trades, you need lights out scouting, and analytics, on draft day you need to be making a good educated guess.

In the salary cap era, you need to pay for tomorrow today, not yesterday today! Paying for past performance means you are getting older, weaker, slower, and more injury prone! Every single time you sign an unrestricted free agent, consider: This player is at the precipice of their career. There may be a year or 2 of joy, and then the collapse, the very, very expensive, costs against the cap decline. When asked, "What free- agents should the Leafs go after?" there is a lot to be said for saying "Absolutely none!" But we here in Leafs Nation want to trade our picks and get grizzled veterans and always be all in all the time, and in the past, so were our GMs with the catastrophic results to show for it, we all fear.

First round draft picks are gold. Any GM who tosses them about or considers his options and is ok with giving up 4 consecutive first round picks is turning their team into a real mess

Salary cap means drafting counts, you need excellent information and great scouting and analytics, you need to watch your spending especially when it comes to grizzled veterans and intangibles, as those players will mandatorily get worse and worse and decline rapidly after a couple of years, and perhaps the hardest bit to get is to pay today for tomorrow - which is part of the reason why you need analytics, as it is supposed to be difficult - and not pay for yesterday. Let's try to avoid signing up for the law of diminishing returns in a cap system, let's see about avoiding that calamity. Just thinking about it makes me want to crack open another European pilsner beer!