Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

[Dreakmur]

ELC - Prior to contract
Pasta (0.72 PPG)
Nylander (0.73 PPG)

Those numbers are accurate, but all ELC years are not created equal.

 

[LaPlante94]

Your first paragraph is slightly off.

Still, nylander's best season during his elc was 61 points and 22 goals. Pasta's best was 74 points and 34 goals (in 75 games).

I included goals because many in this thread keep saying that goal scorers are paid more and that marner should be paid less.

Yet those same posters have no problem with nylander being paid more than pasta because he had two 60 point seasons and was therefore more proven. Marner has two 60 point seasons, a 90 point season and has led our team in scoring for two straight years. The hypocracy is astounding.

I haven't really seen anyone who is cool with Nylanders contract. I've seen some accept it and some completely hate it. But those saying he's getting paid more than Pasta is just wrong because he's not. If Pasta signed his same deal today he'd be making around 7.4 mil. Also, Marners career high in goals is 26. Much easier to get assists in this game then it is to score goals.

 

[MyBudJT]

ELC - Prior to contract
Pasta (0.72 PPG)
Nylander (0.73 PPG)

They were very comparable. Now that we know the future, Pasta is a MASSIVE bargain. I would have paid more for Nylander after looking at mins played and pp time.

In no way are they comparable. You can't look at Pastrnaks' U19 and U20 production and compare it to Nylander's U21 and U22 production.

By his U21 season, Pastrnak has shown to be a better player than Nylander has ever shown to be.

 

[MyBudJT]

I haven't really seen anyone who is cool with Nylanders contract. I've seen some accept it and some completely hate it. But those saying he's getting paid more than Pasta is just wrong because he's not. If Pasta signed his same deal today he'd be making around 7.4 mil. Also, Marners career high in goals is 26. Much easier to get assists in this game then it is to score goals.

Its also much easier to score goals when you have Marner as your linemate. Go ask Tavares.

 

[Walshy7]

It absolutely boggles my mind how quick some people are willing to just give up on Marner. Its ridiculous.

This kid has and will continue to break records for this club.

You know how many players have scored more points in a season for the last 25 years by their U22 season? SEVEN.
You know how many players have scored more points in a season in our franchise's history? FIVE.
You know how many players have scored more assists in a season in our franchise's history? TWO.

Not only is Marner one of the most skilled players in the NHL, but he has also become one of our better PK options.

All this by the age of 22! He has shown nothing but growth since his rookie season... imagine what he can do when he is 24, 25, 26!!

But Nooooooo.... people want to trade him, because he wants to be compensated adequately. Ironically enough, these people never called out Nylander and Matthews demanding they get traded for signing above market value.

Haha even you know marner is not worth mcdavids contract to say different is beyond a joke.

I say $12.5 because that’s all we have to go on, the biggest marner homer in the world could never justify $12.5m

 

[Walshy7]

I haven't really seen anyone who is cool with Nylanders contract. I've seen some accept it and some completely hate it. But those saying he's getting paid more than Pasta is just wrong because he's not. If Pasta signed his same deal today he'd be making around 7.4 mil. Also, Marners career high in goals is 26. Much easier to get assists in this game then it is to score goals.

$7.4m is an underpayment pasta is on par with marner not nylander. 3 30 goal season already, Boston got so very lucky he signed that contract

 

[MyBudJT]

If it makes the team better you trade him, I'm not keen on trading half the roster so Marner can make what he thinks he's worth (12.5M) which if true is just wow

He's a fantastic player and has a value to the team, once his demands exceed that his head should be on the block however

This is absurd man. What team is going to be willing to give us the assets to make us better? Its like Chicago saying "We don't need Kane.... he wants too much money.... lets trade him". And then proceeds to trade him for draft picks... That would be down right stupid!

 

[MyBudJT]

Haha even you know marner is not worth mcdavids contract to say different is beyond a joke.

I say $12.5 because that’s all we have to go on, the biggest marner homer in the world could never justify $12.5m

I'm by no means advocating on signing him to 8 years x 12.5. I don't think its going to get that high. But if it has to, you do it, and trade other players to make the cap fit.

McDavid took a discount. People thought he was going to get 13.5-14M. And that number would be much higher now with inflation.

 

[Walshy7]

I'm by no means advocating on signing him to 8 years x 12.5. I don't think its going to get that high. But if it has to, you do it, and trade other players to make the cap fit.

McDavid took a discount. People thought he was going to get 13.5-14M. And that number would be much higher now with inflation.

You do not pay marner $12.5m you say thank you for a great 3 years and you start shopping your 4x1st round picks or enjoying your new dman

 

[Stamkos4life]

I haven't really seen anyone who is cool with Nylanders contract. I've seen some accept it and some completely hate it. But those saying he's getting paid more than Pasta is just wrong because he's not. If Pasta signed his same deal today he'd be making around 7.4 mil. Also, Marners career high in goals is 26. Much easier to get assists in this game then it is to score goals.

I've seen posters say that his contract will be a steal and others say that his contract is fine.

When a team is looking to trade for a player, they dont care that nylander took a slightly lower percent of the current cap than pasta. They care about the fact that nylander is paid more than pasta. Therefore I dont really take cap percentage that seriously.

Yes goals are harder to get. But isnt it better to have a player who can get the most out of his linemates by being the playmaker, instead of just looking to be the finisher?

I personally think playmakers are underappreciated. Or maybe its just goal scorers are overrated.

 

[MyBudJT]

You do not pay marner $12.5m you say thank you for a great 3 years and you start shopping your 4x1st round picks or enjoying your new dman

What would you rather have? 8 years of prime Dougy Gilmour OR a Todd Gill and four mid-low 1st round draft picks?

 

[Walshy7]

What would you rather have? 8 years of prime Dougy Gilmour OR a Todd Gill and four mid-low 1st round draft picks?

why todd gill? randomly picked dman is a pretty huge strawman. Why cant we trade those 4x 1st round picks? cant do it because you say so or becasue that would bring back a pretty f***ing good dman that ruins your analogy?

 

[thewave]

ELC years prior to signing those contracts.

Tarasenko averaged (0.75 PPG)
Johnny Hockey ave. (0.89 PPG) (21yo and 22yo seasons)
Pasta ave (0.72 PPG)
Dri aver (0.72 PPG)

Mitch Marner (0.93)

One of those players stands out a lot more than the others. Pasta and Dri just went on to have great years after signing.

Scoring was up among top scorers in the league due to Tender equipment shrinking. My best guess is without those changes he would have been .80 - .85

 

[Kiwi]

This is absurd man. What team is going to be willing to give us the assets to make us better? Its like Chicago saying "We don't need Kane.... he wants too much money.... lets trade him". And then proceeds to trade him for draft picks... That would be down right stupid!

You see there's this thing called a salary cap and if Marner won't sign for a resonable (9M-10M×6-7 years) type contract his value to the team drops significantly

By you "logic" if Marner demands league max we should still give it to him, no ******* way and if you think giving guys significantly more than there worth contractually is a way to build a successful team I don't know what to say to you

 

[MyBudJT]

why todd gill? randomly picked dman is a pretty huge strawman. Why cant we trade those 4x 1st round picks? cant do it because you say so or becasue that would bring back a pretty ****ing good dman that ruins your analogy?

Todd Gill was one of our better defencmen in the Doug Gilmour era.

 

[MyBudJT]

You see there's this thing called a salary cap and if Marner won't sign for a resonable (9M-10M×6-7 years) type contract his value to the team drops significantly

By you "logic" if Marner demands league max we should still give it to him, no ******* way and if you think giving guys significantly more than there worth contractually is a way to build a successful team I don't know what to say to you

9M for 6 or 10M for 7 would be a discounted rate.

Again, what can we get in return that makes us better?

 

[crump]

I can only hope that Marner is moved by what legend status the Raptors will have in this town. Go to the parade and bask in the celebration and imagine what it will be like when he held bring home a cup to this city. If his dad and agent are calling the shots we have no hope, but if Marner mans up and says where is heart is, something reasonable can be done.

 

[LaPlante94]

Its also much easier to score goals when you have Marner as your linemate. Go ask Tavares.

Marner does help make his linemates better, but if you're trying to credit Marner for Tavares season then that's just crazy. Tavares has been carrying his linemates his entire career and their numbers show that with him and then when they move on and aren't with him. He turned Anders Lee into a 40 goal scorer being on his line. No coincidence Marner beat his career best by 20+ points when Tavares signed here and Tavares only beat his career best by 2. Their strengths compliment each other well.

 

[Walshy7]

Todd Gill was one of our better defencmen in the Doug Gilmour era.

i get that, but why is the comparison gilmour (a leaf great) or todd gill (one of the better dmen). Why arbitrarily choose that dman. Marner as an elite piece being traded id imagine could bring back a pretty high end dman or alternatively 4 1st round picks would entice someone to bite on a pretty high end dmean too. Your comparison assumes that all we get in return for marner would be "one of our better dmen" thats not possible to know the return

I want to keep marner at a reasonable price, but not at the cost of a bunch of other pieces

 

[MyBudJT]

Marner does help make his linemates better, but if you're trying to credit Marner for Tavares season then that's just crazy. Tavares has been carrying his linemates his entire career and their numbers show that with him and then when they move on and aren't with him. He turned Anders Lee into a 40 goal scorer being on his line. No coincidence Marner beat his career best by 20+ points when Tavares signed here and Tavares only beat his career best by 2. Their strengths compliment each other well.

Tavares had easier goals with Marner than he did in New York. That’s all what was meant by that statement.

 

[MyBudJT]

i get that, but why is the comparison gilmour (a leaf great) or todd gill (one of the better dmen). Why arbitrarily choose that dman. Marner as an elite piece being traded id imagine could bring back a pretty high end dman or alternatively 4 1st round picks would entice someone to bite on a pretty high end dmean too. Your comparison assumes that all we get in return for marner would be "one of our better dmen" thats not possible to know the return

I want to keep marner at a reasonable price, but not at the cost of a bunch of other pieces

Because that’s the caliber dman we’d expect during free agency.

4 1st round picks Will not yield us a Marner caliber player.

 

[LaPlante94]

I've seen posters say that his contract will be a steal and others say that his contract is fine.

When a team is looking to trade for a player, they dont care that nylander took a slightly lower percent of the current cap than pasta. They care about the fact that nylander is paid more than pasta. Therefore I dont really take cap percentage that seriously.

Yes goals are harder to get. But isnt it better to have a player who can get the most out of his linemates by being the playmaker, instead of just looking to be the finisher?

I personally think playmakers are underappreciated. Or maybe its just goal scorers are overrated.

Cap percentage means something especially if the cap is gonna keep increasing. Look at Crosbys contract. he signed for 17.30% of the cap which was a 8.7 mil cap hit when he signed his deal after his ELC. That'd be 14.3 mil right now. Then his deal after that he signed for 14.50% which again was 8.7 mil cap and today that'd be around 12 mil. The more the cap goes up the better that Nylander contract looks, especially when he's gonna be a 70+ point guy imo.

I agree playmakers are under appreciated but people who score consistently will always be paid more

 

[Walshy7]

Because that’s the caliber dman we’d expect during free agency.

4 1st round picks Will not yield us a Marner caliber player.

ok thats fair, i guess. Not sure i agree but not the worst take. Trading marner himself is also a possibility, if a team is offersheeting him they may be inclined to try and trade for him first a team with surplus high end dmen. 4 1st round picks would get you a hell of a player straight up for them man.

 

[ChuckWoods]

Because that’s the caliber dman we’d expect during free agency.

4 1st round picks Will not yield us a Marner caliber player.

Im not sure the target would be free agents if the Leafs declined to match an offer sheet for Marner that exceeded 10.2m for that level compensation.

They’d be tossing some heavy offers out there for the likes of a Trouba, Dumba, Provorov etx with the newly found wealth of picks.

All while having the threat to potentially offersheet someone like Trouba, Werenski or Provy at just a tier below and then still having picks in hand to make additional deals.

Ultimately, Marner potentially signs in the 10.6 to 10.8m range and none of this matters.

 

[Walshy7]

Tavares had easier goals with Marner than he did in New York. That’s all what was meant by that statement.

is that a provable stat?

is there a goal difficulty chart we can look at? Marner is the best winger he has played with but this acting like it was all marner is getting a bit much. JT put up elite numbers before marner, Marner did not. Now of course some of that is Marner's growth but lets not pretend JT is jsut some average centre here