Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

[The Hanging Jowl]

20 point gap. Do you think that's insignificant?

Given the games Matthews missed, it's actually not significant at all.

 

[MyBudJT]

Obviously your opinion is nowhere close to the teams. I believe the team might be a better judge of players.

Was in top 10 according to TSN before this past season where he posted 37 goals and 73 points in 68 games.

Link? I haven't seen the TSN list. Thanks.

 

[MyBudJT]

Given the games Matthews missed, it's actually not significant at all.

But what good are you if you only play 60 games a season?

 

[The Apologist]

Given the games Matthews missed, it's actually not significant at all.

but he DID miss them. So it is actually significant.
When did imaginary production become more important than actual?

 

[MyBudJT]

but he DID miss them. So it is actually significant.
When did imaginary production become more important than actual?

The only logical rebuttal to this is that the regular season doesn't matter. As long as he's healthy during the playoffs.

But then I'd suggest: "Players don't pick when they're injured".

 

[18leafsfan18]

How many games again? Thats how.
Mathews is incredibly talented but has yet to establish that he belongs in the upper tier, that he can carry a team, that he deserves the hardware.

That's such a bad take.

112 games isn't a big enough sample size for you ?

He is absolutely in the upper tier. To suggest he isn't is just stupid.

 

[The Apologist]

That's such a bad take.

112 games isn't a big enough sample size for you ?

He is absolutely in the upper tier. To suggest he isn't is just stupid.

I would absolutely not lump him with McD or Sid or Ovie yet.
And 212 is fine (maybe even still low honestly) for three seasons but ? That also means that on average (since you like that so much) hes good for at least 12 games a season of guaranteed zero production before the puck even drops on the season. Those 12 games have value too. We can assume he would have lit up those 34 games or we can acknowledge that in fact he was not out there at all.
Why is it so bad to want our players to earn it? Why is it so bad to think that they could and should be there but arent yet?

 

[The CyNick]

If someone offer sheets Marner, I wouldn't even match above 10mil aav

Take the 4 first rounders, trade some to get a top pairing Dman.

Spend the rest of the cap savings on a new forward. Panarin maybe. If not, maybe get Kessel at a discount.

So we get a top TWO d man and potentially Panarin for the money we save on marner? Guess we're getting Dahlin.

 

[The Apologist]

The only logical rebuttal to this is that the regular season doesn't matter. As long as he's healthy during the playoffs.

But then I'd suggest: "Players don't pick when they're injured".

absolutely, and hopefully they are not a trend. But you cant just pretend they didnt happen. the fact is he DIDNT play 82 games. You cant give him credit for points he didnt score or games he didnt play. You can pay for potential, but durability is an asset too.

 

[The Apologist]

So we get a top TWO d man and potentially Panarin for the money we save on marner? Guess we're getting Dahlin.

I honestly hope it doesnt come to that. I think it would crush an already pessimistic fanbase to see Mitch leave for cash.

 

[18leafsfan18]

I would absolutely not lump him with McD or Sid or Ovie yet.
And 212 is fine (maybe even still low honestly) for three seasons but ? That also means that on average (since you like that so much) hes good for at least 12 games a season of guaranteed zero production before the puck even drops on the season. Those 12 games have value too. We can assume he would have lit up those 34 games or we can acknowledge that in fact he was not out there at all.
Why is it so bad to want our players to earn it? Why is it so bad to think that they could and should be there but arent yet?

He is there, when he plays he is always a threat to score.

How does this turn into a bashing Matthew's thread. He has the potential to be one of the best Leafs to ever play.

Some Leafs fans will never be happy.

Marner is amazing, but he is not on Matthews level and doesn't play the same position. He shouldn't be paid like it. Plain and simple.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

but he DID miss them. So it is actually significant.
When did imaginary production become more important than actual?

Still a small sample size. So then this comes down to paying for projected performance for both players. I personally think Matthews' potential upside is much higher than Marner's.

 

[The Apologist]

He is there, when he plays he is always a threat to score.

How does this turn into a bashing Matthew's thread. He has the potential to be one of the best Leafs to ever play.

Some Leafs fans will never be happy.

Marner is amazing, but he is not on Matthews level and doesn't play the same position. He shouldn't be paid like it. Plain and simple.

Saying that Marner is as good as Mathews is not bashing Mathews.
WHEN Auston is playing he is always a threat to score. There is no debating that. Nobody is questioning that.

 

[The Apologist]

Still a small sample size. So then this comes down to paying for projected performance for both players. I personally think Matthews' potential upside is much higher than Marner's.

And thats fair. I think the Leafs believe that as well. Im not sure the Marners agree. Quite frankly, they have numbers to back them up.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Saying that Marner is as good as Mathews is not bashing Mathews.
WHEN Auston is playing he is always a threat to score. There is no debating that. Nobody is questioning that.

This argument started because you were saying Matthews is not in the upper tier and Marner is.

This is completely inaccurate.

Again, Marner is great, but he definitely isn't as good as Matthews. Especially in a league where goal scorers are considered more important then playmakers.

 

[The Apologist]

This argument started because you were saying Matthews is not in the upper tier and Marner is.

This is completely inaccurate.

Again, Marner is great, but he definitely isn't as good as Matthews. Especially in a league where goal scorers are considered more important then playmakers.

Never once said Marner was in that upper echelon.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Never once said Marner was in that upper echelon.

The entire argument back and forth was that Matthews is not a top tier player.

Why would that even be an argument in this thread about Marner unless you are arguing Marner is in the top tier.

 

[barilko05]

I love Marner and I think that he's absolutely a top 10 winger in this league. But he doesn't deserve AM/JT money. And he shouldn't get it...for 3 big reasons:

1) Not a centre
2) Not a 1st overall (AM, JT, and McD too...all 1OA.). And yes...that means something.
and
3) He's not a goal scorer. To paraphrase Kawhi..."Goalmen get paid."

If he's asking for more than his two teammates and I'm Dubie...see ya.

 

[The Apologist]

The entire argument back and forth was that Matthews is not a top tier player.

Why would that even be an argument in this thread about Marner unless you are arguing Marner is in the top tier.

im not sure. I did say Marner is as good as Mathews but never once said he was in the upper echelon.

My argument was that NEITHER deserves McDavid money, disputing your point that Mathews did.

 

[18leafsfan18]

im not sure. I did say Marner is as good as Mathews but never once said he was in the upper echelon.

My argument was that NEITHER deserves McDavid money, disputing your point that Mathews did.

Noone is worth McDavid money except McDavid. I never said Matthrew was worth that and he didn't get paid that.

Marner is worth less then Matthews by a pretty significant amount imo. Like I said 10 max

 

[Mr Hockey]

im not sure. I did say Marner is as good as Mathews but never once said he was in the upper echelon.

My argument was that NEITHER deserves McDavid money, disputing your point that Mathews did.

There are no unwritten rules for certain players in negotiations, nobody deserves more than McDavid, but Matthews knew his team value and gouged the Leafs for an overpayment on this and will on his next contract also

 

[biotk]

Like if you are upset about the term because you are convinced Matthews is going to hop on a plane to Arizona at his earliest convenience, then that is fine.

The premise makes no sense anyway. If the goal was to get to Arizona as soon as possible, Matthews would have just held for a 4 year offer sheet from Arizona. If it was high enough Toronto wouldn't match. If Toronto did match Matthews would have got to UFA one year earlier. He did the exact same thing Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos etc did. All resigned. If the Leafs ensure that they are good place to be then players will resign. If they don't then I guess you are forced to trap them with 8-year contracts.

 

[Matthews34]

I would absolutely not lump him with McD or Sid or Ovie yet.
And 212 is fine (maybe even still low honestly) for three seasons but ? That also means that on average (since you like that so much) hes good for at least 12 games a season of guaranteed zero production before the puck even drops on the season. Those 12 games have value too. We can assume he would have lit up those 34 games or we can acknowledge that in fact he was not out there at all.
Why is it so bad to want our players to earn it? Why is it so bad to think that they could and should be there but arent yet?

I guess Sid shouldn't go in The Hall because the middle of his career was ravaged by concussions. He's only played 82 games once in his career. What a bum!

 

[The Apologist]

Noone is worth McDavid money except McDavid. I never said Matthrew was worth that and he didn't get paid that.

Marner is worth less then Matthews by a pretty significant amount imo. Like I said 10 max

Thats an opinion and thats fine. I disagree, but to each their own.

 

[The Apologist]

I guess Sid shouldn't go in The Hall because the middle of his career was ravaged by concussions. He's only played 82 games once in his career. What a bum!

nobody said Mathews was a bum, thanks for the reasonable response.

But should Mathews be paid Sid money? Why?