Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

[Badhands]

There have been very few Leafs in my life that I would say mean much more than a $. Dave Keon was one and I would say Sittler the other, I could include Sundin if pressed. They epitomize what being a Leaf is all about, not just to the team, but to the fans, the community, and the kids. Marner, to my way of thinking, is one of those guys that comes along once in a generation. Sign him!

Keon is a great guy he spent a week at my great uncles cottage every year after his was damaged in a storm. Then my Dad had him and a group of friends for a few years at our cottage always very nice invited my parents to his legends row ceremony. Not a big Leaf fan but am a big Keon fan. Ive been a sharks fan for year but Marner is the only reason I watch the leafs now. I know I’m off topic.

 

[Cotton]

I wouldnt be opposed to trading all three of Nylander, Matthews and Marner. I'd rather trade them for players already signed to palatable contracts that play like they give a shit 100% of the time.

That Nylander thought he was worth 8.5M, that Matthews wanted 14M over 8 years, and that Marner thinks he's worth every cent Auston is just rubs me the wrong way. Tavares played for years giving a big discount, he was a UFA and made bank on his 3rd contract - what have these kids done that they think they deserve as much after their ELC's.

Wont happen, and I'm sure it's an unpopular notion, but none of them are worth handcuffing Dubas' ability to ice a competative team. Becoming Chicago or Pittsburgh, but without the post season success and Cups is a scary thought.

 

[diceman934]

There have been very few Leafs in my life that I would say mean much more than a $. Dave Keon was one and I would say Sittler the other, I could include Sundin if pressed. They epitomize what being a Leaf is all about, not just to the team, but to the fans, the community, and the kids. Marner, to my way of thinking, is one of those guys that comes along once in a generation. Sign him!

Quoted for truth!

I said he was our Franchise player before he played a game in the nhl I stand by that still.

Just an FYI. Keon was my favourite player growing up. Was at the last cup parade.

 

[supermann_98]

I wouldnt be opposed to trading all three of Nylander, Matthews and Marner. I'd rather trade them for players already signed to palatable contracts that play like they give a **** 100% of the time.

That Nylander thought he was worth 8.5M, that Matthews wanted 14M over 8 years, and that Marner thinks he's worth every cent Auston is just rubs me the wrong way. Tavares played for years giving a big discount, he was a UFA and made bank on his 3rd contract - what have these kids done that they think they deserve as much after their ELC's.

Wont happen, and I'm sure it's an unpopular notion, but none of them are worth handcuffing Dubas' ability to ice a competative team. Becoming Chicago or Pittsburgh, but without the post season success and Cups is a scary thought.

It would suck but I hear ya. MacKinnon is making 6.3 long-term. I'd trade Matthews straight up for him easily simply because of the contract value, age and overall potential be damned.

Nylander making more than Pastrnak is a joke ... now Marner expects to make more than the best wingers in the game like Kane, Kucharov, Goudreau and Ovi?

I love how our young guys are more interested in money than winning a cup, it would make my decision as a GM that much simpler.

Nylander should have been the first domino to fall where I would have rather he sat for a year instead of signing him to the contract he does not even come close to deserving. Now Dubas has shown the league his soft underbelly and the agents are laughing because they know their percentage is gonna be worth more than it should be.

It's a bad situation to be in unless mediocrity like first round playoff eliminations are the goal.

 

[killer1980]

Quoted for truth!

I said he was our Franchise player before he played a game in the nhl I stand by that still.

Just an FYI. Keon was my favourite player growing up. Was at the last cup parade.

And I was at every game of the final, 3 in Montreal, 3 in Toronto. I was such a teenage rebel, I went with my mother to all 6 games. Marner is more than a Maple Leaf. He is Toronto. Sign him.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I wouldnt be opposed to trading all three of Nylander, Matthews and Marner. I'd rather trade them for players already signed to palatable contracts that play like they give a **** 100% of the time.

That Nylander thought he was worth 8.5M, that Matthews wanted 14M over 8 years, and that Marner thinks he's worth every cent Auston is just rubs me the wrong way. Tavares played for years giving a big discount, he was a UFA and made bank on his 3rd contract - what have these kids done that they think they deserve as much after their ELC's.

Wont happen, and I'm sure it's an unpopular notion, but none of them are worth handcuffing Dubas' ability to ice a competative team. Becoming Chicago or Pittsburgh, but without the post season success and Cups is a scary thought.

The old adage about a fool and his money is very evident in Toronto and has been for a long time. Ownership are corporate, how many of them haven't ever laced up their skates or been in competive sports?

They have a right to print money, the market is created for them already, all they do is put players out there and count the cash. The more invested fans are in players, (like Marner, Matthews et al) the more effort they apply to sign them, at all costs.

I always hear excuses as to why Canadian teams don't win the Cup. I heard Burke is talk factors things like taxes. It's a silly argument because if it were only about most money spent, every Cup would be decided by payroll before the seasons started. It's about logical business people who understand that sports HAS to be about winning. You win a Cup, you get paid. You're not a winner, you have to be judged by others in your category.

Leafs have to consider ticket sales, jersey sales, corporate boxes, advertisers etc. Americans just like winners. Canadians would be wise to think the same, especially management. It's why I shook my head when Anthopolous was "resigned" with the Blue Jays. He built a winner. He spent money yes, but he was building a culture of success. Short sightedness ensures the Jays won't win anytime soon unless it all comes together with their youth. We've seen with the Leafs how dicey and uncertain that can be (though I still think Leafs best hockey is definitely yet to come).

Now, if you are trying to build a blueprint for winning, you need the talent and personnel up and down the lineup. You also need the resources to obtain this talent. In a cap world that means you need cap space, draft picks, great scouts and competent coaches. If you overspend in one area, you are going to be shortchanged on the ice somewhere. It requires planning and making difficult decisions. You have to set a max on a contract your line in the sand. You have leverage, use it!

P.S If Dubas wants to send a message, and I think he should. He should trade Nylander and Kadri in the off season. He will do what he must with Marner Find some extra endorsements for him in the market if it can take a few bucks off his contract etc. If not, welcome the 4 first rounders (which I doubt any team is willing to give up) and flip them for solid players.

The message has to be sent, "there is talent here, but you have to show up, not be selfish and win. The clubhouse, hand holding is over. Get more Muzzins, less prima donnas. You surround the talent with some hungry Gamers and the entire team gets a lift.

 

[Stamkos4life]

I wouldnt be opposed to trading all three of Nylander, Matthews and Marner. I'd rather trade them for players already signed to palatable contracts that play like they give a **** 100% of the time.

That Nylander thought he was worth 8.5M, that Matthews wanted 14M over 8 years, and that Marner thinks he's worth every cent Auston is just rubs me the wrong way. Tavares played for years giving a big discount, he was a UFA and made bank on his 3rd contract - what have these kids done that they think they deserve as much after their ELC's.

Wont happen, and I'm sure it's an unpopular notion, but none of them are worth handcuffing Dubas' ability to ice a competative team. Becoming Chicago or Pittsburgh, but without the post season success and Cups is a scary thought.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I just hope the rest of the league starts over paying their rfa's as well. Otherwise I do not like our future

 

[diceman934]

And I was at every game of the final, 3 in Montreal, 3 in Toronto. I was such a teenage rebel, I went with my mother to all 6 games. Marner is more than a Maple Leaf. He is Toronto. Sign him.

I was at game 3 when Pulford scores in OT.

 

[Nithoniniel]

2) He was the major reason the PP was smoking hot.
Ovi has scored over 38% of his career on the PP, does that take away from being Ovi??? (1211GP - 464 PPP)

I'm not trying to take that away from him. The point made was that Marner did just as well with Kadri. To judge that we have to look on even strength production, and that's where you see a big difference.

So what happened was that Marner started to become the elite PP QB he is now, and put up a torrid pace because of it. And then he got Tavares to play with, which brought up his even strength numbers while he produced under more sustainable circumstances.

4) "but it seems clear to me which one is benefiting most" seems to imply different. As in Marner can't put up these numbers without JT, when he already has...... great PP1 is not a negative.

Good point. I think they are benefiting rather equally; in my haste to disprove, I took a stance I don't stand for. My bad.

 

[Nithoniniel]

It would suck but I hear ya. MacKinnon is making 6.3 long-term. I'd trade Matthews straight up for him easily simply because of the contract value, age and overall potential be damned.

MacKinnon got $6.3M because that's what he was worth at the time. Nylander got about the same cap percentage as Pastrnak as his case was pretty much the same.

You're basically holding it against our players that they are excelling early in their NHL careers rather than after their ELC. They are not greedier than most players, they just have better cases.

Having MacKinnon-type contracts are great. All teams should want them. We have some of our own in Rielly and Kadri.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Time will tell. Marner shouldn’t make a single PENNY more than a Rantanen.

and Overpay Dubas should wait til Rantanen is signed to help his poor negotiating skills

 

[ToneDog]

I'm not trying to take that away from him. The point made was that Marner did just as well with Kadri. To judge that we have to look on even strength production, and that's where you see a big difference.

So what happened was that Marner started to become the elite PP QB he is now, and put up a torrid pace because of it. And then he got Tavares to play with, which brought up his even strength numbers while he produced under more sustainable circumstances.


Good point. I think they are benefiting rather equally; in my haste to disprove, I took a stance I don't stand for. My bad.

Marner QB'd a terrible PP since December. Not singling you out but I find the term "elite" is used very loosely by Leaf fans. Sorry but I do not agree that Marner is an "elite" PP QB until he develops a shot. Personally I think he should shoulder some of the blame for our 90 lb "enforcer" because he does not have a good enough shot and is too predictable and hence easily shutdown by "elite" PKers.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

@ToneDog

What about the fact our PP sucked the last 50 games and Babcock tried nothing.

 

[Pi]

MacKinnon got $6.3M because that's what he was worth at the time. Nylander got about the same cap percentage as Pastrnak as his case was pretty much the same.

You're basically holding it against our players that they are excelling early in their NHL careers rather than after their ELC. They are not greedier than most players, they just have better cases.

Having MacKinnon-type contracts are great. All teams should want them. We have some of our own in Rielly and Kadri.

Yeah people don't quite understand that MacKinnon was not even close to a PPG player for his first 4 years. 0.59, 0.62, 0.72 and 0.77. He got 6.3M because he didn't deserve more than that. It's not out of the goodness of his heart that he took a discount.

Matthews on the other hand? 0.84 in his rookie year which is better than any year MacKinnon had till age 22, 1.02 in his second year, 1.04 in his third year and a much, much better goal scorer. They are not comparable at all at the same age. If not for injury, he would have had three straight 40+ goal seasons in his ELC as a young center. That has not happened since some guy named Mario Lemieux.

This is also why it is very funny to see people write Nylander off. They say how good MacKinnon is right now and compare him to all the other high salary players but conveniently leave out some big details surrounding his contract.

Nylander's going to be a good damn player if he's given ice time and PP1 minutes. One season where he didn't even play till December doesn't define him.

 

[ToneDog]

@ToneDog

What about the fact our PP sucked the last 50 games and Babcock tried nothing.

Well they did try a few things (Isles game) with some success but would revert back to the same old same old. Finally tried playing AM and MM on their off wings but it was too little too late. The second unit was pretty much a non factor.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Marner QB'd a terrible PP since December. Not singling you out but I find the term "elite" is used very loosely by Leaf fans. Sorry but I do not agree that Marner is an "elite" PP QB until he develops a shot. Personally I think he should shoulder some of the blame for our 90 lb "enforcer" because he does not have a good enough shot and is too predictable and hence easily shutdown by "elite" PKers.

Wow, never considered that when judging how well someone specifically QB's a PP, to include how well they can snipe in there.

That said, Marner will make less than Matthews because Matthews scores goals better.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah people don't quite understand that MacKinnon was not even close to a PPG player for his first 4 years. 0.59, 0.62, 0.72 and 0.77. He got 6.3M because he didn't deserve more than that. It's not out of the goodness of his heart that he took a discount.

Matthews on the other hand? 0.84 in his rookie year, 1.02 in his second year, 1.04 in his third year and a much, much better goal scorer. They are not comparable at all at the same age. If not for injury, he would have had three straight 40+ goal seasons in his ELC as a young center. That has not happened since some guy named Mario Lemieux.

This is why it is very funny to see people write Nylander off. He's going to be a good damn player if he's given ice time and PP1 minutes. One season where he didn't even play till December doesn't define him.

Nylander did nothing to earn ice time and PP1 minutes. Good thing is he gets a reset at training camp.

 

[Fakejake51]

@ToneDog

What about the fact our PP sucked the last 50 games and Babcock tried nothing.

Like what? Take Marner off of it? I’m sure that woulda gone over well on here.

 

[ToneDog]

Wow, never considered that when judging how well someone specifically QB's a PP, to include how well they can snipe in there.

That said, Marner will make less than Matthews because Matthews scores goals better.

Results are what count and our PP fell short given our talent. Marner was good but I cannot call him "elite" when the results were not there. At times I thought he was more dangerous on the PK than on the PP.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There have been very few Leafs in my life that I would say mean much more than a $. Dave Keon was one and I would say Sittler the other, I could include Sundin if pressed. They epitomize what being a Leaf is all about, not just to the team, but to the fans, the community, and the kids. Marner, to my way of thinking, is one of those guys that comes along once in a generation. Sign him!

It's a short list, agree with Keon and Sittler and personally I'd add Salming to the list before Sundin.

I'd hope for Marner to be the next person on the list, he certainly has what it takes but for me, he doesn't get there if he's going to try to squeeze every last penny out of the Leafs so for now, I'm in wait and see mode. He's going to make tens of millions in endorsement money if he stays in Toronto, that should be enough compensation for staying a tier below Matthews on the pay scale (leaving aside for the moment the centre vs winger value discussion). If he let's his dad's ego run things and tries to get the most money he possibly he can on his next contract, he'll never mean as much to me as Keon/Sittler/Salming did. Take a fair deal and help bring the cup back to Toronto and he'll be immortal.

 

[Pi]

Nylander did nothing to earn ice time and PP1 minutes. Good thing is he gets a reset at training camp.

What are you talking about? He had back to back 61 point seasons, he shot 5% this season, he was really really good on the PP in his rookie year. 17/18 was a shit year for everyone on the PP.

Marner had a PDO of 103.2 this season (really f***ing high) and Nylander was at 98.6.

Nylander will be within 10 points of Marner next season if he's on PP1. If he isn't on PP1, he will still end up with about the same or more ES points than Marner.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Results are what count and our PP fell short given our talent. Marner was good but I cannot call him "elite" when the results were not there. At times I thought he was more dangerous on the PK than on the PP.

You're talking about the results of the PP as a group, though. But what about the specific role in the PP as the PP QB, how do you measure those results. By how much QB himself snipes the puck?

 

[ToneDog]

You're talking about the results of the PP as a group, though. But what about the specific role in the PP as the PP QB, how do you measure those results. By how much QB himself snipes the puck?

Mitch is a great playmaker but on the PP if team know that he is not a threat to shoot it makes it easier on the defending team to shut down the Leafs PP. IMO it is part of the reason why our PP sucked. Rielly not having a slapshot from the point is another. Now if Mitch starts shooting and scoring on the PP, then teams cannot cheat which opens up room for the others.

I ask myself how can a PP with an elite PK QB, an elite point man, and two elite Cs be so unproductive? I cannot lay all the blame on the specialities team coach. Some blame has to go to the players.

 

[Pookie]

The good news is the Cdn economy is now in big trouble. With $2/L and inflation coming big time we may actually start to see some empty seats next year. Toronto needs to start trading expensive skill for cheaper grit and character players plus picks. We can't afford all of them cap wise and some are passengers or reg season players. On top of that we need to replenish our prospect pool again. We kept JVR and Gardiner for nothing while giving up picks. No change will equal the same result. Kadri gets suspended once, no change. Kadri gets suspended twice. Having a decent reg season then losing first round does nothing.

Personal Seat Licenses pretty much assure the team that there will be no empty seats.... or at least no unpaid seats.

If you have a PSL and don’t renew, you lose your PSL and the tickets.

 

[Morbo]

Like what? Take Marner off of it? I’m sure that woulda gone over well on here.

Like...anything.