Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion XX - The Dog Days of August V3

[ZippityDooDa]

Oh sure, the posters here loved Hainsey, Zaitsev, Marincin, Ozhiganov, Holl, and Hunwick (throw in Polak and Carrick for the adoration they received while here)

Yea that's my point, players who f*ck up a lot are going to get the heat. Hainsey was just getting old and slow, the rest were/are just terribly unreliable.

 

[MyBudJT]

You are literally the only person I have ever seen use that to show 1 season.

The U18, U19, U20 hockey tournaments you refer to just means the players have to be under the age of 18, 19, or 20. There are 16 yr olds that play for the U20 team. If anything this disproves your "Common way for prospects to be discussed"

Well if you want to be technical, you’re right and you’re wrong.

Technically, Marner has had had 3 U22 NHL seasons...

But very rarely when people discuss U whatever propspects, do they refer to their total career... it’s normally used to discuss one year/season... Marner’s U22 season is clearly what I have been referring to...

I apologize for forgetting one word.

 

[ACC1224]

Oh sure, the posters here loved Hainsey, Zaitsev, Marincin, Ozhiganov, Holl, and Hunwick (throw in Polak and Carrick for the adoration they received while here)

Fans have always had unreal expectations when it comes to Leaf defenders.
I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Well if you want to be technical, you’re right and you’re wrong.

Technically, Marner has had had 3 U22 NHL seasons...

But very rarely when people discuss U whatever propspects, do they refer to their total career... it’s normally used to discuss one year/season... Marner’s U22 season is clearly what I have been referring to...

I apologize for forgetting one word.

It's not that you just forgot a word. Kane was better in his ELC (comparing points and goals), but you purposely keep that out of your post.

Why nitpick and only use 1 season to discuss a player ?

 

[Nineteen67]

a well known name/source with years of credible reporting.

Reporters are not sources.

 

[zeke]

Well, I apologize if you weren’t. Your first response led on like I was right by that assumption...

honestly I rarely respond to posters, just to posts. I don't know who I was responding to exactly.

 

[zeke]

It's not that you just forgot a word. Kane was better in his ELC (comparing points and goals), but you purposely keep that out of your post.

Why nitpick and only use 1 season to discuss a player ?

9 more goals and 6 more points in 3 more games "better", with much much more PP time, to be completely accurate.

 

[18leafsfan18]

9 more goals and 6 more points in 3 more games "better", with much much more PP time, to be completely accurate.

Again, This is why I asked for context.

To blindly say U22 Marner is better then U22 Kane, with nothing to support it was confusing.

If there is a discussion to compare stats / ice time / linemates etc, that is something else.

 

[egd27]

Yea that's my point, players who f*ck up a lot are going to get the heat. Hainsey was just getting old and slow, the rest were/are just terribly unreliable.

See below

Fans have always had unreal expectations when it comes to Leaf defenders.
I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon.

100% agree.

There is no doubt in my mind that Ceci will be this season's "Larry Murphy"

 

[MyBudJT]

It's not that you just forgot a word. Kane was better in his ELC (comparing points and goals), but you purposely keep that out of your post.

Why nitpick and only use 1 season to discuss a player ?

I purposefully keep ELC years out of the post because it’s a silly thing to look at. I’ve yet to see a solid argument on how it has any relevance....

What does U20 seasons have anything to do with how good a player is in their U22 season?

When discussing / debating how good a player is and how much they should earn... what they did as a rookie really doesn’t matter all that much(unless they only had 1 ELC year in the NHL)

For instance... who is the better player?

Player 1:
Y1: 18P
Y2: 61P
Y3: 61P

Player 2:
Y1: 10P
Y2: 40P
Y3: 85P.


Give me the 85P U22 year old any day of the week!!!

 

[Nineteen67]

This is a ridiculous statement.

I pointed them out at the time....I don’t just follow the puck....there were a couple of plays that had us shaking our heads.

 

[Heisen]

What's Dubas' CaveIn/60 at?

 

[18leafsfan18]

I purposefully keep ELC years out of the post because it’s a silly thing to look at. I’ve yet to see a solid argument on how it has any relevance....

What does U20 seasons have anything to do with how good a player is in their U22 season?

When discussing / debating how good a player is and how much they should earn... what they did as a rookie really doesn’t matter all that much(unless they only had 1 ELC year in the NHL)

For instance... who is the better player?

Player 1:
Y1: 18P
Y2: 61P
Y3: 61P

Player 2:
Y1: 10P
Y2: 40P
Y3: 85P.


Give me the 85P U22 year old any day of the week!!!

So with your way of evaluating players, only the last season matters ?

All other stats, context isn't important ?

Of coarse when you throw out a ridicules example (like you did) you pick player 2.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I pointed them out at the time....I don’t just follow the puck....there were a couple of plays that had us shaking our heads.

I agree with you on Matthews. For some reason, he still leaves you wanting more. He was still much better than the previous year against Boston.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Okay, so you think PP ice time is what got Kane more points and goals ? That's a valid point.

Did Kane have the advantage of playing with a sure fire #1 C in the league during his ELC ?

Toews and Sharp were pretty good

That's ordered by Kane's TOI.

I used this tool: Corsica | Line Stats

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Fans have always had unreal expectations when it comes to Leaf defenders.
I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon.

Well no one is b*tching about the current lot we have other than Ceci and I think it's pretty normal for some to be skeptical about him. So, I guess things changed..Is it too much to ask that a player making millions of dollars a year as an NHL defenseman not make crucial mistakes every game? I think those are pretty baseline expectations.

 

[ACC1224]

Well no one is b*tching about the current lot we have other than Ceci and I think it's pretty normal for some to be skeptical about him. So, I guess things changed..Is it too much to ask that a player making millions of dollars a year as an NHL defenseman not make crucial mistakes every game? I think those are pretty baseline expectations.

I don't recall any defenseman making 'crucial mistakes every game'?
Which player are you referring to?

 

[IPS]

Again, This is why I asked for context.

To blindly say U22 Marner is better then U22 Kane, with nothing to support it was confusing.

If there is a discussion to compare stats / ice time / linemates etc, that is something else.

But what if Kane had the smaller goalie equipment to shoot out (he's a much better shooter than Marner)? Icing rules (Kane's never liked physical contact)? 3 on 3 OT (Kane is one of the very best 3 on 3 players in the league)? An easier league to score at ES (ES scoring is higher now than it was during Kane's era)?

Is this Marner > Kane narrative taking any of this into account? Didn't f***ing think so, it's stupid and not even worth addressing.

In Kane's day there was 7 guys who cracked 90+ points. We had 14 players crack 90+ last year. It's a much different league.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Toews and Sharp were pretty good

View attachment 251481

That's ordered by Kane's TOI.

I used this tool: Corsica | Line Stats

During those seasons, Toews was nowhere close to as good as tavares today (His ELC also).

Again, I'm not arguing there can be an argument made, but by looking at only points and only 1 season it doesn't really make the argument very valid.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I pointed them out at the time....I don’t just follow the puck....there were a couple of plays that had us shaking our heads.

You mean a 21-year old player didn't make the 100% perfect play (according to you, who was probably misreading what he was supposed to be doing at that time) a "couple" of times in the playoffs against the 3rd best team in the league?



Trade him away! #Doesn'thavewhatittakestowin

 

[ZippityDooDa]

I don't recall any defenseman making 'crucial mistakes every game'?
Which player are you referring to?

Again...the players who get sh*t on, are getting sh*t on for good reason and not just because "fans have always had unreal expectations".
No one b*tches about Rielly do they? Wonder why? Maybe it has to do with him not sh*tting the bed on a regular basis. Hmm.

 

[zeke]

In Kane's day there was 7 guys who cracked 90+ points. We had 14 players crack 90+ last year. It's a much different league.

League ranks:

Age 21: Marner #11, Kane #9
Age 20-21: Marner #19, Kane #15
Age 19-21: Marner #22, Kane #18

 

[X66]

Kane also got WAY more PP time than Marner in their ELC, including a year where he was over 4 mins a game on the PP.

Overall on the PP in their ELC

922 mins for Kane
574 mins for Marner

People have too big of a boner for guys like Kane etc and forget just how incredible guys like Marner and Matthews have been, and what their pedigree are.

 

[ACC1224]

Again...the players who get sh*t on, are getting sh*t on for good reason and not just because "fans have always had unreal expectations".
No one b*tches about Rielly do they? Wonder why? Maybe it has to do with him not sh*tting the bed on a regular basis. Hmm.

Not all players are Rielly, fans just wish they were. Hence the 'unreal expectations'.

 

[PromisedLand]

marner in the media has been farily consistent whatever the news; whats going on with other high profile RFAs? Any news on them? may be that could potentially provide a timeline when the dominoes might fall

Aho seems really long ago