Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion XX - The Dog Days of August V3

[Suntouchable13]

So in order to not make the team weaker your solution is to make the team weaker?

What I don’t want happening is that players thinking they can just outwait Dubas and he will cave. He already gave Matthews a very player friendly deal, don’t want another.

 

[81Leafs50]

Marner produced well ahead of Kane factoring in ice time.

LOL

 

[ACC1224]

What I don’t want happening is that players thinking they can just outwait Dubas and he will cave. He already gave Matthews a very player friendly deal, don’t want another.

You play hardball with the lower tier players, not your stars.

 

[biotk]

Kane had 30 goals and 88 points
Marner had 26 goals and 94 points...

Games played with Tavares:
Kane had zero.
Marner had 82.

 

[KPower]

Would Mitch sign the McDavid contract?

8x12.5

 

[Mess]

Leafs want to pay Marner Kane’s 1st contract money, Marner wants Kane’s 2nd contract money. I think they’ll split it down the middle.

1st contract: 5 @ 11.09
2nd contract: 8 @ 15.22

Compromise:

6 years @ 13%

Marner @ 6 years X CH 13% = $10.595 mil AAV [4 X RFA + 2 X UFA years]
vs
Kane 8 years @ CH 15.22% = $10.5 mil AAV [8 X UFA years]

Your comprise is to give Marner a Cap hit/AAV > than Kane, and for 2 less years of service, while 4 of those years are team cost controllable RFA years compared to Kane where his 3rd contract are all 8 @ UFA years rate.

Which doesn't sound much like a compromise. but rather something Darren Ferris would try and sell as one.

Kane's contract = $84 mil total X 8 years = $10.5 mil AAV

Marner compromise contracts that Dubas should be offering using Kane:

@ 7 years @ $70 mil total (including 4 X RFA) X C.H.% @ 12.27% = $10.0 mil AAV [of $81.5 mil Salary Cap] or
@ 8 years @ $84 mil total (4 XRFA & 4 X UFA) X C.H.% @ 12.88% = $10.5 mil AAV

 

[Stephen]

yes. he goes.

I see zero possibility of Ceci staying. Either his money gets allocated to a Barrie re-signing or the whole Barrie, Ceci etc. experiment gets scrapped and the Leafs reinvest the money in a Pietrangelo or something.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There were a few shifts in the playoffs that had me wondering if he knows what it takes to win.

This is a ridiculous statement.

 

[zeke]

So now the people who make fun of p60 are now ignoring raw points when convenient, too. Big surprise.

Age 21

Marner: 82gms, 19:49 (2:35pp), 26gls (3pp), 94pts (21pp) - #11 nhl
Kane: 82gms, 19:12 (3:14pp), 30gls (9pp), 88pts (29pp) - #9 nhl

Age 20-21

Marner: 164gms, 18:06 (2:24pp), 48gls (11pp), 163pts (48pp) - #19 nhl
Kane: 162gms, 18:56 (3:42pp), 55gls (22pp), 158pts (64pts) - #15 nhl

ELC

Marner: 241gms, 17:41 (2:23pp), 67gls (15pp), 224pts (69pp) - #22 nhl
Kane: 244gms, 18:44 (3:47pp), 76gls (29pp), 230pts (92pp) - #17 nhl

 

[hockeeyyy]

It is absolutely STUPID to compare Malkin's production then to Matthews' production now. There isn't apples to apples comparison

- Goalie Equipment change
- More room behind the net now
- Better hockey sticks now
- icing rules have changed
- clutch and grab then (i.e. not easier to score) versus penalties called now

Malkin was a beast; if Malkin had debuted in today's NHL with today's NHL rules Malkin would have blown his competition out of the park.

Malkin's production in ELC > Matthews production in ELC one cannot even compare. It is absolutely stupid to compare them.

Only thing one could potentially claim is that Malkin played behind Crosby other than that there is no claim; copying and pasting the stats without really understanding the nuances of the data is ****ing stupid.

What? There was no clutch and grab era when Malkin started out. If anything, it was the year of obstructions finally being called for what they were -- penalties. Why are you making things up?

 

[Nithoniniel]

What? There was no clutch and grab era when Malkin started out. If anything, it was the year of obstructions finally being called for what they were -- penalties. Why are you making things up?

Because he's made up his mind from the start.

 

[egd27]

Not at all...if he **** up all the time then he deserves the heat. Do you see anyone b*tching about any other leafs defenders other than the one who would screw up at the worst times? Nope.

Oh sure, the posters here loved Hainsey, Zaitsev, Marincin, Ozhiganov, Holl, and Hunwick (throw in Polak and Carrick for the adoration they received while here)

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

This is why I asked for context. What is being used to determine Marner is better ?

A statement of U22 Marner is better then U22 Kane would assume career numbers to that point would it not ?

Yea. The rate stats I linked. Context is important as you mentioned when looking at production, the most important of which is how much was scored on the PP. marner outproduced Kane U22 by a fairly large margin taking into consideration how much PP ice time they had.

 

[Walshy7]

Would Mitch sign the McDavid contract?

8x12.5

would anyone offer him that? ludicrous contract paying him McDavid money.

If he wouldn't sign for that then he and his party have lost the plot

 

[MyBudJT]

Not a huge surprise you only look at 1 year because that is the only way Marner had more points.

This is why I asked for context. What is being used to determine Marner is better ?

A statement of U22 Marner is better then U22 Kane would assume career numbers to that point would it not ?

What does U20 Kane and Marner have to do with U22 Kane and Marner???

So now the people who make fun of p60 are now ignoring raw points when convenient, too. Big surprise.

Age 21

Marner: 82gms, 19:49 (2:35pp), 26gls (3pp), 94pts (21pp) - #11 nhl
Kane: 82gms, 19:12 (3:14pp), 30gls (9pp), 88pts (29pp) - #9 nhl

Age 20-21

Marner: 164gms, 18:06 (2:24pp), 48gls (11pp), 163pts (48pp) - #19 nhl
Kane: 162gms, 18:56 (3:42pp), 55gls (22pp), 158pts (64pts) - #15 nhl

ELC

Marner: 241gms, 17:41 (2:23pp), 67gls (15pp), 224pts (69pp) - #22 nhl
Kane: 244gms, 18:44 (3:47pp), 76gls (29pp), 230pts (92pp) - #17 nhl

I’m assuming you’re taking a shot at me here. Show me where I’ve made fun of P/60? I’ve stated some of it’s flaws, but every stat has its Flaws...

Why did you all of a sudden convert from P/60 to total production? Have a change in heart, or are you cherry picking whatever numbers you like to see best?

 

[18leafsfan18]

What does U20 Kane and Marner have to do with U22 Kane and Marner???



I’m assuming you’re taking a shot at me here. Show me where I’ve made fun of P/60? I’ve stated some of it’s flaws, but every stat has its Flaws...

Why did you all of a sudden convert from P/60 to total production? Have a change in heart, or are you cherry picking whatever numbers you like to see best?

So when you say U22 you are just talking about 1 season ?

Why say U22 then ? it just makes no sense.

When you compare Marner's stats in the league when he was U22 to Kane's stats when he was U22 then Kane has more points and more goals.

You are nitpicking to only include 1 of the seasons (the season Marner played with a 10 year proven #1 C in the league).

 

[MyBudJT]

So when you say U22 you are just talking about 1 season ?

Why say U22 then ? it just makes no sense.

When you compare Marner's stats in the league when he was U22 to Kane's stats when he was U22 then Kane has more points and more goals.

You are nitpicking to only include 1 of the seasons (the season Marner played with a 10 year proven #1 C in the league).

U22 refers to U22 season.

Its a common way for prospects to be discussed.

You've got the U18 hockey tournaments
You've got U19 hockey tournaments (IIRC)
You've got U20 hockey tournamentts....

Its just the way it is....

You're the one nitpicking my posts... I'm clearly referring to U22 seasons for Marner and Kane... U18, U19, U20 at this point is largely irrelevant, really...

 

[zeke]

What does U20 Kane and Marner have to do with U22 Kane and Marner???

I’m assuming you’re taking a shot at me here. Show me where I’ve made fun of P/60? I’ve stated some of it’s flaws, but every stat has its Flaws...

Why did you all of a sudden convert from P/60 to total production? Have a change in heart, or are you cherry picking whatever numbers you like to see best?

Why are you asking a question that I answered in the post? I used raw totals to point out the hypocrisy of those who hate the p60 numbers now deciding to ignore the raw point totals too, when convenient.

But if you care about p60 now all of a sudden:

ELC

Marner: ES 2.33p/60, 1.90p1/60 ---- PP 7.02p/60, 4.59p1/60
Kane: ES 2.22p/60, 1.70p1/60 ------- PP 6.24p/60, 4.22p1/60

 

[18leafsfan18]

Yea. The rate stats I linked. Context is important as you mentioned when looking at production, the most important of which is how much was scored on the PP. marner outproduced Kane U22 by a fairly large margin taking into consideration how much PP ice time they had.

Okay, so you think PP ice time is what got Kane more points and goals ? That's a valid point.

Did Kane have the advantage of playing with a sure fire #1 C in the league during his ELC ?

 

[MyBudJT]

Why are you asking a question that I answered in the post? I used raw totals to point out the hypocrisy of those who hate the p60 numbers now deciding to ignore the raw point totals too, when convenient.

But if you care about p60 now all of a sudden:

ELC

Marner: ES 2.33p/60, 1.90p1/60 ---- PP 7.02p/60, 4.59p1/60
Kane: ES 2.22p/60, 1.70p1/60 ------- PP 6.24p/60, 4.22p1/60

ELC is a silly, silly thing to look at. ELC 1 is much much less important than ELC 3.


U22 SEASON Marner > U22 SEASON Kane is all I've said...

Not sure why that is offending you so much.

 

[zeke]

ELC is a silly, silly thing to look at. ELC 1 is much much less important than ELC 3.

U22 SEASON Marner > U22 SEASON Kane is all I've said...

Not sure why that is offending you so much.

You're the one that assumed I was responding to you.

 

[MyBudJT]

You're the one that assumed I was responding to you.

Well, I apologize if you weren’t. Your first response led on like I was right by that assumption...

 

[Suntouchable13]

You play hardball with the lower tier players, not your stars.

So you're ok with Dubas just caving in at the end and giving him a Matthews type deal?

 

[18leafsfan18]

U22 refers to U22 season.

Its a common way for prospects to be discussed.

You've got the U18 hockey tournaments
You've got U19 hockey tournaments (IIRC)
You've got U20 hockey tournamentts....

Its just the way it is....

You're the one nitpicking my posts... I'm clearly referring to U22 seasons for Marner and Kane... U18, U19, U20 at this point is largely irrelevant, really...

You are literally the only person I have ever seen use that to show 1 season.

The U18, U19, U20 hockey tournaments you refer to just means the players have to be under the age of 18, 19, or 20. There are 16 yr olds that play for the U20 team. If anything this disproves your "Common way for prospects to be discussed"

 

[ACC1224]

So you're ok with Dubas just caving in at the end and giving him a Matthews type deal?

Yes.
It's ok to overpay a Matthews or Marner.
You don't overpay Dermott or Kapanen, etc.