Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVIII (continued)

[Throw More Waffles]

true, other GMs would rather spend that money on marleau and zaitsev.

Showing that our other gm's in the past were ALSO horrible doesn't make me feel any better about this organization.

 

[Gary Nylund]

total points is less information, not more.

LOL no, don't be ridiculous.

I know you love to post things like P/60 but if you only look at that then you might not even know that Matthews missed a bunch of games. Now I know you're always pumping Matthews and he is a great player but when a guy misses a bunch of games and it happens more than once, that's information that is quite important.

Look at P/60 - wow, this guy is freaking elite.

Look at total points - this guy isn't elite at all, WTF?

Look at everything, know everything.

It's always better to know than not to know. Sorry Zeke but this idea that you have less information after looking at total points is beyond silly.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

I think Horton and Clarkson are both the same $10.55 mil offseason and regular season now.

However perhaps its Hyman and Dermott that might qualify for Offseason LTIR extra relief based on missing a month to start the year.

You're right, I think that's the cap regardless...

 

[zeke]

Showing that our other gm's in the past were ALSO horrible doesn't make me feel any better about this organization.

You never have to worry about raycroft toskala tucker komisarek finger clarkson colby bernier phaneuf marleau zaitsev etc etc deals ever, ever again.

enjoy it.

 

[Legion34]

So you've ignored my argument, came up with your own argument, and then "proved" YOUR argument.
And then you act like you won the argument.

One thing for sure that you DIDN'T do was counter MY argument.

Well if your argument is that it is unprecedented. sure. Auston Matthews is the only Auston Matthews who signed for 11.634 x 5.

Connor mcdavid is the only player to sign for 12.5 x 8. So he is also unprecedented.

That doesn’t make it bad. .

So your argument is that Matthews is overpaid because he is unprecedented?

Except. A much worse player with much worse totals got a very similar cap.

So you are wrong. Like PSYCHOTICALLY wrong.

Or you are INCONSISTENT

I DEMAND CONSISTENCY

 

[zeke]

LOL no, don't be ridiculous.

I know you love to post things like P/60 but if you only look at that then you might not even know that Matthews missed a bunch of games.

oh i'm sure he looks at games played. and ice time during those games played.

and he wouldn't look at any stat which doesn't factor those in.

Look at P/60 - wow, this guy is freaking elite.

Look at total points - this guy isn't elite at all, WTF?

replace that "WTF" with "LOL/sarc" and you have a better idea of Dubas' thinking.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Well if your argument is that it is unprecedented. sure. Auston Matthews is the only Auston Matthews who signed for 11.634 x 5.

Connor mcdavid is the only player to sign for 12.5 x 8. So he is also unprecedented.

That doesn’t make it bad. .

So your argument is that Matthews is overpaid because he is unprecedented?

Except. A much worse player with much worse totals got a very similar cap.

So you are wrong. Like PSYCHOTICALLY wrong.

Or you are INCONSISTENT

I DEMAND CONSISTENCY

No other 70 point player has signed for 14-15% of the cap post elc. That is a FACT!!!!

You seem so scared of this fact that you just ignore it and argue against something else entirely.

 

[4thline]

Marian Gaborik signed a 3 year deal at 14.33
Having never reached 40 goals or 70’pts.

Rick Nash has 13.85. Right out of his ELC
He had 1 41 goal season where he was a in a 3 way tie for the rocket. So it is just as accurate to say he was a top 3 goal scorer once.

He also had a 17 goal season and had NEVER even beat 57 pts

He was 19th in goals in his ELC and got 13.85
Matthews was 5th in his ELC

So you are suggesting that a 14.3 (when it was signed it was 13.7-14)

Percent cap is unacceptable and and DRAMATIC OVERPAYMENT. For a top 5 goal scorer who had a career high of 73 pts and was a ppg or over in 2 of his last 3 seasons. Who was also a top 2 goal scorer in his only healthy year

But a 13.85 percent cap for a guy who NEVER EVEN REACHED 60 pts isn’t?

Don’t you see how that is wrong. Like PSYCHOTICALLY wrong? I can’t TAKE it! It’s JUST NOT IN ME!

I Demand consistency!

I DEMAND IT.

Is that how this goes?

I laughed OUT loud. This was TOO funny

 

[4thline]

No other 70 point player has signed for 14-15% of the cap post elc. That is a FACT!!!!

You seem so scared of this fact that you just ignore it and argue against something else entirely.

There are facts and facts. Some just aren't super ahhh... useful or informative.

 

[Gary Nylund]

oh i'm sure he looks at games played. and ice time during those games played.

and he wouldn't look at any stat which doesn't factor those in.

replace that "WTF" with "LOL/sarc" and you have a better idea of Dubas' thinking.

And I'm sure you're wrong.

I don't know how you can say with a straight face that someone would "know less" after looking at total points, that's just beyond ridiculous.

If I look at a piece of data that tells me nothing, I just continue my work (I work as a data analyst).

If you look at a piece of data and somehow come away knowing less than you did before, you have issues.

 

[zeke]

And I'm sure you're wrong.

I don't know how you can say with a straight face that someone would "know less" after looking at total points, that's just beyond ridiculous.

If I look at a piece of data that tells me nothing, I just continue my work (I work as a data analyst).

If you look at a piece of data and somehow come away knowing less than you did before, you have issues.

let's try another sport.

I have a player's batting average.

I have a player's plate appearances.

Both are useful pieces of data - one tells me something about his hitting skill/performance level, the other tells me something about his sample size and maybe about his health too.

Now someone responds by telling me how many Hits that player has. That is a piece of data that doesn't add any data to my dataset at all - it tells me less about his hitting skill/performance than batting average does, and it tells me less about his sample size and health than plate appearances does. It literally gives me worse information than I already had.

 

[Legion34]

No other 70 point player has signed for 14-15% of the cap post elc. That is a FACT!!!!

You seem so scared of this fact that you just ignore it and argue against something else entirely.

You are completely making up math...... and passing them off as facts.

So who’s contract is worse?


13.85 x 5 for the 19th most goals and a career high of 57 pts. One top 3 finish

16 41 30 goals.

14.3 x 5 for the 5th most goals and a career high of 73 pts. One top 2 goal finish.

You won’t answer that will you? Will you?

I demand consistency!

 

[Gary Nylund]

let's try another sport.

I have a player's batting average.

I have a player's plate appearances.

Both are useful pieces of data - one tells me something about his hitting skill/performance level, the other tells me something about his sample size and maybe about his health too.

Now someone responds by telling me how many Hits that player has. That is a piece of data that doesn't add any data to my dataset at all - it tells me less about his hitting skill/performance than batting average does, and it tells me less about his sample size and health than plate appearances does. It literally gives me worse information than I already had.

This was what you said - "total points is less information, not more."

Try all the sports you like with whatever stats you like, it's not going to change the fact that this is silliness.

If someone were to come up to Dubas and show him a piece of paper with a breakdown of players by total points, what do you think Dubas would do? Would he cover his eyes and yell "back off dude" in the fear that if he were to actually see the numbers, he would somehow lose knowledge?

Get real Zeke, I think we're done here.

 

[Shooter14]

So after all that has gone down and all the different opinions. To simplify this whole process when would be the best time for the Leafs to sign Marner based on all the cap scenarios as of today for the Leafs to optimise their situation. Off-season? Training camp? Before the season starts? During the season? Laymans terms please so it's understandable. Thanks. All these different opinions has left me in a coma!!

 

[zeke]

This was what you said - "total points is less information, not more."

Try all the sports you like with whatever stats you like, it's not going to change the fact that this is silliness.

don't get upset.

I explained to you how just being another stat doesn't in itself give you more information, and can literally give you worse information.

If someone were to come up to Dubas and show him a piece of paper with a breakdown of players by total points, what do you think Dubas would do?

if you gave him a list of names and their total points? toss it in the bin.

Would he cover his eyes and yell "back off dude" in the fear that if he were to actually see the numbers, he would somehow lose knowledge?

to borrow a phrase....WTF?

Get real Zeke, I think we're done here.

relax. I'm just trying to help you understand how he thinks.

 

[ACC1224]

don't get upset.

I explained to you how just being another stat doesn't in itself give you more information, and can literally give you worse information.



if you gave him a list of names and their total points? toss it in the bin.



to borrow a phrase....WTF?



relax. I'm just trying to help you understand how he thinks.

Why do you assume you know how he thinks?

 

[egd27]

Why do you assume you know how he thinks?

Well Zeke looks exactly like Dubas, so he probably knows how he thinks too. I mean you obviously know how Jack Lambert thinks.....right?

 

[zeke]

Why do you assume you know how he thinks?

let's just say every single move he has made has felt like he's been reading my mind. he's my soulmate.

 

[Gary Nylund]

don't get upset.

I explained to you how just being another stat doesn't in itself give you more information, and can literally give you worse information.

if you gave him a list of names and their total points? toss it in the bin.

to borrow a phrase....WTF?

relax. I'm just trying to help you understand how he thinks.

You did a lot more then state the obvious, you stated the absurd.

Don't worry Zeke, I'm not even close to being upset, just amused is all.

 

[ACC1224]

Well Zeke looks exactly like Dubas, so he probably knows how he thinks too. I mean you obviously know how Jack Lambert thinks.....right?

I do if he's thinking it's time to quit work, grab a can of Stella and go float in the pool before dinner.

 

[Notsince67]

LOL no, don't be ridiculous.

I know you love to post things like P/60 but if you only look at that then you might not even know that Matthews missed a bunch of games. Now I know you're always pumping Matthews and he is a great player but when a guy misses a bunch of games and it happens more than once, that's information that is quite important.

Look at P/60 - wow, this guy is freaking elite.

Look at total points - this guy isn't elite at all, WTF?

Look at everything, know everything.

It's always better to know than not to know. Sorry Zeke but this idea that you have less information after looking at total points is beyond silly.

I was tempted to respond to the comment but it was so out of left field, i had nothing to say that wouldnt break site rules. You are correct.

 

[MyBudJT]

Its almost like you should use different stats based on the story you're trying to tell. Weird concept, I know . There is a place for pretty well all the numbers!

 

[TML Dynasty]

Lol I do think looking at Total points when it comes to AM doesn’t paint the whole picture. He has been injured and underused. Hopefully he gets past these injuries and gets more TOI and goes crazy so we can stop worrying. P/60 shows when he’s playing he’s good.

Bickering here is crazy.

But yeah.....Marner thread

 

[Notsince67]

don't get upset.

I explained to you how just being another stat doesn't in itself give you more information, and can literally give you worse information.



if you gave him a list of names and their total points? toss it in the bin.



to borrow a phrase....WTF?



relax. I'm just trying to help you understand how he thinks.

If he thinks that way he is statistically inept. I dont think he is but someone here might be.

 

[zeke]

If he thinks that way he is statistically inept. I dont think he is but someone here might be.

to call someone inept statistically because they ignore raw points as a statistic requires you to be....er....statistically inept.