Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

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Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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Aho had one year of slightly better numbers.

What’s the PPG for all 3 over their ELC years?

.81
.85 ELC and .91 career
.93

Match the number to the player and tell me how Marner is not Eichel plus inflation?

Oh, ppg is the only metric we look at? Compare Matthews elc ppg to every other player who signed in the 14-15% of cap on their post elc contract. Based on that, Matthews is one of the most overpaid players ever.

Let me guess... with Matthews, goals count? Ok.

Eichel, Aho, Marner?
Now look at goals per game.

.34
.35
.28

Which one is not like the other?
 

ORRFForever

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Marner is a grudge holding kinda guy - based on how he's reacted to not being paid the $1M bonus. Given that fact, do we really want to burn this bridge?

Remember, in 5 years, JT will be old and Matthews might be hurt / injury prone, so we may want a happy Marner who wants to stay in 2025.
 

Arthur Morgan

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I’m fine with those numbers

I feel like 10.5-11.5 over 6-8 gets it done.

Less than 6 has to be under 10 in my opinion.
I can accept Matthews money for Marner since he's a winger if he's signing 7-8 years. I dont be that greedy Ill be just as happy with 7 years as I would 8. but 8 would be the number I prefer. but 100% down to give him exact number as Matthews but 7-8 years not no 5 years.
actually Id rather him sit the season than sign him for 5.
 

rielledup

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The guys on Overdrive are defending Marner in a BIG way...

Stays healthy.
Leads the team in scoring.
Helps line-mates have career years.
Could make the case that he's as good as Matthews.

Everything we've said here.

What is the idea that Marner is as good as Matthew's based on? AM was on pace for 44 and 88 playing with third liners, what do you think those numbers would've been had he played with a winger who is as good as Tavares? Why does this very obvious point not get brought up more by the fans and media?
 
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IPS

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Conversely it's coincidental that Tavares sets a career high in goals with 47, getting 40+ for the first time in his career, when paired with Mitch.
It is worth nothing though that league scoring is up a fair bit relative to Tavares' other best years. Tavares has also finished in the top-5 in goals twice before as well. Tavares has also made a career out of elevating his wingers production, although he's never had one outscore him like Marner did.
 
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Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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Who are the winger comps at .93 PPG over the ELC years?
Well, Rantanen is .91 over his 3 elc years.

That close enough? Does the 0.02 percent equal MILLIONS of extra dollars?

Also, goals per game:
Rantanen:0.35
Marner: 0.28

There's NO excuse for Marner to make even one penny more than Rantanen. NONE.
 

LaPlante94

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Marner is a grudge holding kinda guy - based on how he's reacted to not being paid the $1M bonus. Given that fact, do we really want to burn this bridge?

Remember, in 5 years, JT will be old and Matthews might be hurt / injury prone, so we may want a happy Marner who wants to stay in 2025.

But what if Marner is hurt/injury prone in 5 years?
 
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BertCorbeau

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It is worth nothing though that league scoring is up a fair bit relative to Tavares' other best years. Tavares has also finished in the top-5 in goals twice before as well. Tavares has also made a career out of elevating his wingers production, although he's never had one outscore him like Marner did.

Yes Tavares is a proven elite player and yet he didn't reach PPG status in the NHL until basically his 3rd season in the league, same as Mitch. A fairer assertion is that Marner's production was a byproduct of both playing with Tavares and his own personal development. Likewise, Tavares' increased production was a product of both increased league scoring and playing with Mitch.

Elite players propping each other up is a good way to look at it. No need for anyone to put down the other.
 

ORRFForever

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What is the idea that Marner is as good as Matthew's based on? AM was on pace for 44 and 88 playing with third liners, what do you think those numbers would've been had he played with a winger who is as good as Tavares? Why does this very obvious point not get brought up more by the fans and media?
Matthews played AGAINST the other team's 2nd defensive pairing - why does this very obvious point not get brought up more by Matthews fans?

Matthews does NOT have several of his game minutes burned by playing on the PK.

Matthews also tends to take a bunch of games off every season for some reason - while Marner is out there EVERY game.
 
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ajp4to

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Jul 31, 2015
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They already tried to discuss an offer sheet with Marner and couldn't come to an agreement.
The only team willing to overpay Marner just like did with Nylander is the leafs. There is no team in the league that will pay Marner more then Leafs have already offered. Just like no team was giving Nylander an offer sheet to overpay him, no team is going to give up assets for the privilege of overpaying Marner
 

Pookie

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Oh, ppg is the only metric we look at? Compare Matthews elc ppg to every other player who signed in the 14-15% of cap on their post elc contract. Based on that, Matthews is one of the most overpaid players ever.

Let me guess... with Matthews, goals count? Ok.

Eichel, Aho, Marner?
Now look at goals per game.

.34
.35
.28

Which one is not like the other?

You argue to suit your cause.

I don’t care if we sign him or not.

I’m telling you that .93 PPG is expensive. Play makers are a great asset.

If you want to pick apart goals or secondary assists, have at it.

Nice things cost money. That is a universal truth that won’t change no matter the spin you want to put on it.
 

Pookie

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Well, Rantanen is .91 over his 3 elc years.

That close enough? Does the 0.02 percent equal MILLIONS of extra dollars?

Also, goals per game:
Rantanen:0.35
Marner: 0.28

There's NO excuse for Marner to make even one penny more than Rantanen. NONE.

I missed the news flash where Rantanen signed a contract
 

IPS

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Matthews played AGAINST the other team's 2nd defensive pairing - why does this very obvious point not get brought up more by Matthews fans?

Matthews also does NOT have several of his game minutes burned by playing on the PK.

Matthews also tends to take a bunch of games off every season for some reason - while Marner is out there EVERY game.

Matthews played against top lines in his rookie season, scored 40 goals, was the team's top scorer, and outscored Marner.

Why does this very obvious point not get brought up by Matthews detractors?
 

Gutchecktime

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Dec 24, 2005
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My issue in all this is it seems that among some fans there is a perception that since MM grew up a fan of the team he should take less to "pay" for the priviledge of playing on home town team.

1) teams bends over backwards for AM 34 giving him unprecedented money on 5 yr term because he might sign offer sheet to go home?
2) Team continually treats MM as significantly less important than AM34

The end result may be loss of hometown boy through trade or offersheet and AM34 walks as a UFA in 5 years.

I always felt the team should have focused on making the hometown guy if not the priority at least equal. This team is heading towards a dressing room with two cliques and that never ends good.

Hawks got it right- they 2 stars were always paid the same.

Why make the hometown guy the priority the just because he's a hometown guy though? I don't want my GM making decisions based on purely emotional stuff like that.

And I think people have to stop implying that the team is somehow slighting or disrespecting Marner in any way. Sure, it's silly for fans to expect Marner to take less just because he's from here. But it's equally foolish to expect the Leafs just to give in to any demand and not make a reasonable argument based on comparables and the salary cap.

At the moment, the rumoured offer of 8 years, $80 million would be the single biggest contract the franchise has ever given out. It's his prerogative to ask for more but that isn't insulting or disrespectful in any way.
 

ajp4to

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Jul 31, 2015
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Well, Rantanen is .91 over his 3 elc years.

That close enough? Does the 0.02 percent equal MILLIONS of extra dollars?

Also, goals per game:
Rantanen:0.35
Marner: 0.28

There's NO excuse for Marner to make even one penny more than Rantanen. NONE.
Well, there is one reason, he is dealing with the Leafs the overpay organization.
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,947
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You argue to suit your cause.

I don’t care if we sign him or not.

I’m telling you that .93 PPG is expensive. Play makers are a great asset.

If you want to pick apart goals or secondary assists, have at it.

Nice things cost money. That is a universal truth that won’t change no matter the spin you want to put on it.
Nice things shouldn't cost any more money than what other gm's pay for comparable nice things.
 

LaPlante94

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Apr 12, 2011
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If you wanna compare Marner to Kane out of their ELC contracts, Marner would get 9 million over 5 years. Points wise over the 3 ELC years are pretty much identical.

Kane 244 GP with 230 points with 76 goals
Marner 241 GP with 224 points with 67 goals
 

MyBudJT

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Mar 5, 2018
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Marner is asking for roughly 13% of the cap, name me another winger that signed for this recently. Go ahead I’ll wait ...

Now you're switching your goalposts. You said in the cap era... which one is it?
 

ORRFForever

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Matthews played against top lines in his rookie season, scored 40 goals, was the team's top scorer, and outscored Marner.

Why does this very obvious point not get brought up by Matthews detractors?
Well then he should be scoring more now (playing against the weaker pairing) and should be more than just a PPG player... but he isn't because, like I said many times :

a) He can't stay healthy;
b) After starting each season like a house on fire, he slows down like an old man going up to the buffet for a 2nd time.

Why does this very obvious point not get brought up by Matthews supporters?
 

BoredBrandonPridham

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If you wanna compare Marner to Kane out of their ELC contracts, Marner would get 9 million over 5 years. Points wise over the 3 ELC years are pretty much identical.

Kane 244 GP with 230 points with 76 goals
Marner 241 GP with 224 points with 67 goals

Kane with a shit ton more PP time in there, because the Blackhawks had tons of PPs. Also Kane signed his contract in Dec so he didn’t play his full 3rd year. Marner produced substantially more than Kane, like another tier. And no Kane did not win a cup before his second contract signing.

Nylander and Kane had pretty much identical production in their careers before signing their second contracts. That’s how much PP time Kane had.
 
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