Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

[Sypher04]

We literally just blew assets for rentals and cap space. They always always always refuse to sacrifice a year to gain assets and push hard the next, it's always a rush job. Always. How old are you? 22 lol, this team is notorious for rushing and bleeding assets.

I said sell Jake before last season, take a step back, make some moves and find more solid ground. They never do that. The only difference is they usually pay Jason Spezzas of the world 6m. That's the only dif

Teams headed for the playoffs rarely sell off significant upcoming UFA assets. It's just doesn't happen all that often. Maybe you should consider the problem is your expectations.

 

[thewave]

I don't see this necessarily as what's happening.
Let's say for arguments sake that Marner's best comparable league-wide is Kucherov at 9.5/8
If the Leafs were offering him say 10/6 with all the perks of up front signing bonus money and all that jazz, that would be by definition a very player friendly deal and frankly an overpayment based on his comparables. The idea that it has to be Matthews' money however, if that's what is actually the ask from the Marner camp, doesn't represent simply a player friendly deal, it represents a probably 30% overpayment. This is where things break down imo.

It's exactly what Mess said, sorry. It just is.

 

[thewave]

Teams headed for the playoffs rarely sell off significant upcoming UFA assets. It's just doesn't happen all that often. Maybe you should consider the problem is your expectations.

Maybe that's the recipe to winning. Ever think of that? The team with the most assets afford the best talents. The assets are picks, they can be used to get players or develop.

I get it though... That's the way they have done it for 50 years, why should we change now...

Because they haven't won in 50 years. They strategize this team like freaking Novice chess players.

 

[81Leafs50]

Well said ..

This is self inflicted by the Leafs organization and previous management decisions.

I like the analogy previously given of considering the 3 Amigos of the Leafs as 3 of your own children and after giving 2 of your kids very player friendly deals, suddenly now when the 3 kid is up, you decide its time for cost constraint and complain or about their greed, when all they want to do is be treated equally to their other brothers in arms here.

OKAY!

enough honestly. this is getting to be ridiculous.

YOUR TAKE: Nylander is overpaid.

2016-2017
Nylander: 22 goals and 61 pts
Marner 19 goals and 61 pts

2017-2018:
Nylander 20 goals 61 pts
Marner 22 goals 69pts

Nylander negotiated off of these stats and singed before he played a FULL 3rd season in the NHL.

AGAIN, your take is that Nylander got overpaid and Leafs lost that battle.

OKAY......

At this point Marner and Nylander have almost identical stats. Lets say their worth is also equal.

Nylander is better suited to be a 6.5M player. So that Makes Marner also a $6.5M player.

NOW....

Add on the 94 pts and 26 goals from last season (2018-2019).

Does that bring Marner to 10-12M range? NO

If you are on the opinion that Matthews and Nylander got overpaid THEN WHY WOULD YOU BE OF THE OPINION THAT MARNER IS A 10M+ PLAYER IN THE NHL???

it goes against everything you are arguing for.......

 

[Budz]

This whole Marner thing has me like:

Me: Alexa, how many days till training camp?
Alexa: Showing prices for tanning lamps.

Pass me a beer...

 

[nuck]

So sitting out 21% of the season is a net positive?

If it ever actually allowed a team to give a marquee player a lesser deal then it would matter. I don't know how chronic injuries would have to become for an agent to roll over and have his player take less but it wouldn't be for missing 20 games two seasons in a row. Its a negative, but not one that can be applied to a salary calculation, because you cant project past injuries or past durability into the future without a huge sample. Lupuls first 3 NHL seasons were 75, 81, and 81 games. After missing a ton of games for concussions in 2007, 2010,2011, 2012 Crosby has still played at least 75 games plus playoffs for the last 6 seasons.

Players always want to negotiate as though they will be bulletproof and never age, and that is probably the one area of the salary wars the owners have not been able to crack open.

 

[Sypher04]

It's exactly what Mess said, sorry. It just is.

It's not but you two can continue to tell yourself that it is.
Overpayment for x player doesn't necessarily represent the same dollar figure as overpayment on y player
League comparables determine degree of overpayment

 

[justafan22]

Teams headed for the playoffs rarely sell off significant upcoming UFA assets. It's just doesn't happen all that often. Maybe you should consider the problem is your expectations.

Yup. Few teams do it. This isn't NHL20.

 

[Warden of the North]

Bring on the offer sheet.

BRING. IT. ON.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

We literally just blew assets for rentals and cap space. They always always always refuse to sacrifice a year to gain assets and push hard the next, it's always a rush job. Always. How old are you? 22 lol, this team is notorious for rushing and bleeding assets.

I said sell Jake before last season, take a step back, make some moves and find more solid ground. They never do that. The only difference is they usually pay Jason Spezzas of the world 6m. That's the only dif

The mismanagement of previous regimes has absolutely no baring on the abilities of the current management team. Regardless of what you think of the current iteration.

I'm surprised people think that how this team was managed decades ago has anything to do with today's management philosophies?

And before you ask.....I'm almost 40 ()

 

[MapleLeafs77]

Question for diceman16 and notsince67:

What do you guys want here? You want to sign marner for matthews contract? Who are you throwing over board? What is your lineup now? What happens that summer where matthews/marner/nylander all are due for an extension? How do we keep all of them and negotiate with all of them considering how difficult this has been off their elc?

I just really wanna know what your plan is since you want marner to sign for matthews contract.

 

[Sypher04]

Maybe that's the recipe to winning. Ever think of that? The team with the most assets afford the best talents. The assets are picks, they can be used to get players or develop.

I get it though... That's the way they have done it for 50 years, why should we change now...

Because they haven't won in 50 years. They strategize this team like freaking Novice chess players.

Player/pick assets are one thing. Own rentals are another. Cap space for letting people walk is another. There are a lot of angles.

The idea that a team sitting in a playoff spot is going to dismantle significant parts of their team and risk their season to get a draft pick however is absurd.
What about the value of playoff experience? What if you trade that top 4 defender, stumble down the stretch missing the playoffs and all your young guys miss that year of development in the postseason?

Was that worth it? Doubtful.

Let's build a winning culture by trading away our UFAs every trade deadline and making our team worse.

 

[horner]

We literally just blew assets for rentals and cap space. They always always always refuse to sacrifice a year to gain assets and push hard the next, it's always a rush job. Always. How old are you? 22 lol, this team is notorious for rushing and bleeding assets.

I said sell Jake before last season, take a step back, make some moves and find more solid ground. They never do that. The only difference is they usually pay Jason Spezzas of the world 6m. That's the only dif

I agree

 

[ToneDog]

Teams headed for the playoffs rarely sell off significant upcoming UFA assets. It's just doesn't happen all that often. Maybe you should consider the problem is your expectations.

Still pissed off that Masai did not trade Kawhi at the TDL. We have nothing to show for DD, Poeltl and a 1st except a lousy NBA championship.

 

[thewave]

The mismanagement of previous regimes has absolutely no baring on the abilities of the current management team. Regardless of what you think of the current iteration.

I'm surprised people think that how this team was managed decades ago has anything to do with today's management philosophies?

And before you ask.....I'm almost 40 ()

I see absolutely zero difference between this Larry Tan. team and JFJ teams other than we had a good pool of high picks. The overpays are going out, the old guys are still being signed (Marleau). The drama still swirls the city and they don't proceed past the 1st round if they make it.

Its a new cast on the same set providing the same show. This version is extremely soft though.

 

[thewave]

Still pissed off that Masai did not trade Kawhi at the TDL. We have nothing to show for DD, Proehl and a 1st except an lousy NBA championship.

How does that even compare though? Basketball is about the Star and Jake wasn't the star of this team anyways.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I see absolutely zero difference between this Larry Tan. team and JFJ teams other than we had a good pool of high picks. The overpays are going out, the old guys are still being signed (Marleau). The drama still swirls the city and they don't proceed past the 1st round if they make it.

Its a new cast on the same set providing the same show. This version is extremely soft though.

To be fair, Marleau was old management too. He was signed by Lou, not by Dubas.

 

[81Leafs50]

THE MAN IS A SAINT!

 

[Randy Randerson]

Still pissed off that Masai did not trade Kawhi at the TDL. We have nothing to show for DD, Proehl and a 1st except an lousy NBA championship.

that's a call you can only make in hindsight, Masai's gamble paid off. If you were managing assets out of sheer logic without regard for appearances, dealing the JVR/Gardiner/Bozak's would have been much better gambles than keeping them. The way to win championships is to be good for a long time, not to be very good for one year.

Also the NBA is a different animal than the NHL, being a top seed matters there, it matters a hell of a lot less in the NHL

 

[thewave]

To be fair, Marleau was old management too. He was signed by Lou, not by Dubas.

It's the Shanaplan, that's where it started, it's all current rendition.

 

[thewave]

that's a call you can only make in hindsight, Masai's gamble paid off. If you were managing assets out of sheer logic without regard for appearances, dealing the JVR/Gardiner/Bozak's would have been much better gambles than keeping them. The way to win championships is to be good for a long time, not to be very good for one year.

Also the NBA is a different animal than the NHL, being a top seed matters there, it matters a hell of a lot less in the NHL

Thank you Randy, exactly.

 

[ToneDog]

How does that even compare though? Basketball is about the Star and Jake wasn't the star of this team anyways.

True but in hockey you need many depth pieces and Jake was just one of many. Dump him and play Rosen or Marincin ?? As we saw this year, the NHL playoffs are usually a toss up and anything can happen. If teams think they can win, they will add not subtract. With a bit more luck (and probably another solid dman), it could have been the Leafs vs the Blues in the SCF.

 

[Sypher04]

It's funny, Bobby Mac posted this chain of tweets back in February right after Matthews signed his deal. Spot on assessment still today. Why he's the best in the biz.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It's the Shanaplan, that's where it started, it's all current rendition.

I guess, but it's not like those signings continued in Toronto once Lou left.

They did mysteriously start up again once Lou went to the Islanders though.

 

[ToneDog]

that's a call you can only make in hindsight, Masai's gamble paid off. If you were managing assets out of sheer logic without regard for appearances, dealing the JVR/Gardiner/Bozak's would have been much better gambles than keeping them. The way to win championships is to be good for a long time, not to be very good for one year.

Also the NBA is a different animal than the NHL, being a top seed matters there, it matters a hell of a lot less in the NHL

Hindsight is 20/20. Bruins added at the TDL, did not subtract and went to the finals. They now lost Acciari and Johanson. Can you imaging Leaf nation if Leafs subtract at the TDL when they are comfortably in a playoff spot ?