Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

[weems]

How hard is it to spell our #1 overall pick franchise centers name correctly?

Mathews?

 

[DarkKnight]

How hard is it to spell our #1 overall pick franchise centers name correctly?

Mathews?

Austin.

 

[Notsince67]

And? The minority, doesn't speak for the majority. Using Chicago as an example kind of cherry picking because they've signed Toews and Kane to identical contracts twice now. That doesn't really happen. The same would be if you brought up Crosby , who has had the exact same caphit once he left his ELC.

The Stamkos situation is pretty easy to explain. Stamkos signed his deal 3 years ago. Since that time, the cap has increased every season, as well as the introduction of the Golden Knights to the league. It's rather silly to compare the two because the NHL and the cap are in 2 different places when they were signed.

When you rank forwards in terms of who gets paid, it goes centres, then goal scorers. If you're a goal scoring centre, you're valued even more. 7 of the top 10 highest earning forwards this up coming season are centres. 5 of those 7, scored 35 or more goals last season. Low scoring wingers who have high assist totals don't tend to get paid as much as you'd think. Marchand is at 6.1 , Gaudraeu is at 6.7 , Aho(moved to centre now?) is at 8.4 etc etc . Marchand, Gaeudreau and Aho mind you, all have scored 30 or more, unlike Marner. Not to mention, your earlier example of Kucherov who scored 40 goals , got paid 9.7 million. So I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that its propaganda to suggest centres and goal scorers get paid.


But it does though, as evident by the fact that people are judged by quarters, not by daily production. Not to mention, they're also judged by projections too

It is rather silly no not see that Kucherov has a higher percentage of the cap at his signing than Stamkos, who actually went on a shopping expedition for better deals

 

[Notsince67]

How hard is it to spell our #1 overall pick franchise centers name correctly?

Mathews?

Is this a trick question?

 

[diceman934]

IN the REAL world. Matthews is top in goals since being drafted. Marner is 12th in assists and 22nd in points.

Marners stats dont cut in the real world of ELITE players. Let alone his salary demands.

Marner is screwed.

In the real world where is Mathews in assists since he was drafted or points.

 

[Sypher04]

We know that it was Nylander who "caved" by calling Dubas in the last hour. Both sides say that.

But Nylander didn't call to accept Dubas' offer.

Nylander specifically said he started with "Let's make a deal".

Dubas is the one that caved when making that last deal.

Riiiight lol. Nylander called Dubas at the last moment to make a deal and Dubas was the one who caved. You realize how stupid that sounds, right?

In reality, I'm sure both sides moved off their stance to get the deal done, but the obvious inference is that Nylander's camp made the big move to get the deal done.

Any insinuation that Dubas caved at the last moment isn't founded in any truth, flies in the face of what we know and is frankly just people trying to push their anti Dubas agenda.

 

[Jozay]

Seeing Colaiacovo get dunked on because his tweet this morning

 

[Sypher04]

Leaving out his pk points is laughable. He missed quality 5 on 5 time first shift after pp against other teams. That hurt his production. Mathews was not the better player. Mitch carried the team for much of the season.

It isn't laughable at all. I left out his penalty killing points for an apples to apple comparison to Matthews... why is this hard for people to understand?
Mitch had a definitively better season than Matthews did, that doesn't however mean he's necessarily a better player.
As I've said, I think that discussion is far more nuanced than raw points totals can tell.

 

[Clark4Ever]

One thing from that Friedman piece I really liked

"Toronto and Marner have talked about a short term deal of two or three years and they’ve talked about six. I think Marner might want something a little bit different, but that’s kind of where they are."

Those are the right terms to be negotiating with from the Leafs perspective.

Agreed.

I would be ok with:

5 x 2
6 x 3
9 x 6

If he wants 10 plus, he has to commit to a longer term.

 

[DueDiligence]

I have no problem with this. Real stats. Not some extrapolated "what if" stuff.

Plus, please don't put me in the "I wanna overpay Marner" camp. I want them to give him what he's worth, which is under $10 million. The problem is that Dubas overpaid the other two amigos already so there's no way for him to go to Mitch and ask him to take less than (or even equal to) market value with a straight face.

The thing people forget is that Marner got ripped off by the Leafs on his rookie contract. Marner's camp was told by Leafs management that they did not give certain bonuses out and yet they gave them to Matthews. So I can understand why they are taking a harder stance now as some of what they are asking for is "catch-up" money.

 

[diceman934]

Which is why at least half of your answers are half finished...stop hating on Matthews...Marner is an Assists guy...he doesn't put the puck in the net, he makes sure other people have that opportunity...thus he is literally at the mercy of his line mates...Tavares and Hyman go stone cold and Marner stops getting points...not every goal Marner was involved in was a tap in on an open net...some of them were and they were amazing plays but you are discounting the work Marners linemates have to do to finish...Matthews is perfectly capable of putting the puck in the net by himself if need be, which he has done on more than one occasion...

Screw it I say bridge Marner 2-3 years 5-7M per year and let his play speak for itself...if he continues to do what he has done then there can be no excuses not to open up the bank account for the kid at the end of his bridge deal...this result keeps the "Marner is god" crew happy as if he is as good as they are betting he should make a sht ton more money on the next contract and Dubas and the Leafs will literally have no leg to stand on...while still acknowledging that Matthews has the contract he has for valid reasons...

BET ON YOURSELF MITCH and then take Dubas to the cleaners (with full fan support not that it means anything and your brand perfectly intact) should his play continue to rise

Best of both worlds...stops this ludicrous Marner Matthews comparison gets him signed with the knowledge that if he is everything he seems to be Dubas better open the checkbook

Why would he take 7m on a 3 year deal. Mathews took 11.634 on a deal that walks him to free agency. The average would be around 9 for 3 years

 

[Cor]

Seeing Colaiacovo get dunked on because his tweet this morning

It’s kinda fun how fans are knocking down the Marner is as important as Matthews stuff.


I think Marner camp expected the opposite, and I think they expected that other teams would meet their demands for an offer sheet.


This is an interesting dynamic. Far more intriguing than the Nylander stuff, where that deal could have been done in June to be honest

 

[Notsince67]

Riiiight lol. Nylander called Dubas at the last moment to make a deal and Dubas was the one who caved. You realize how stupid that sounds, right?

In reality, I'm sure both sides moved off their stance to get the deal done, but the obvious inference is that Nylander's camp made the big move to get the deal done.

Any insinuation that Dubas caved at the last moment isn't founded in any truth, flies in the face of what we know and is frankly just people trying to push their anti Dubas agenda.

In fairness, if Marner asked for 11.6 x 5 and at the last minute he dropped to 10.8MM x 6, does it mean he caved? Perhaps but many of us would still call it an overpayment...albeit with the intention of pragmatism layered in

 

[weems]

Seeing Colaiacovo get dunked on because his tweet this morning

People's thoughts?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Lopsided for the other team.
You shouldn't pretend most of the proposals are in favor of the Leafs. 90% of the trade scenarios on HF hurts the leafs.

No, lopsided for us. I don't pretend about anything. These three (or two) top assets for our guy (+ some junk i.e., Ceci) or whatever just don't work out. History shows this.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The thing people forget is that Marner got ripped off by the Leafs on his rookie contract. Marner's camp was told by Leafs management that they did not give certain bonuses out and yet they gave them to Matthews. So I can understand why they are taking a harder stance now as some of what they are asking for is "catch-up" money.

Maybe Lou will pay it in NY

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Which is why at least half of your answers are half finished...stop hating on Matthews...Marner is an Assists guy...he doesn't put the puck in the net, he makes sure other people have that opportunity...thus he is literally at the mercy of his line mates...Tavares and Hyman go stone cold and Marner stops getting points...not every goal Marner was involved in was a tap in on an open net...some of them were and they were amazing plays but you are discounting the work Marners linemates have to do to finish...Matthews is perfectly capable of putting the puck in the net by himself if need be, which he has done on more than one occasion...

Screw it I say bridge Marner 2-3 years 5-7M per year and let his play speak for itself...if he continues to do what he has done then there can be no excuses not to open up the bank account for the kid at the end of his bridge deal...this result keeps the "Marner is god" crew happy as if he is as good as they are betting he should make a sht ton more money on the next contract and Dubas and the Leafs will literally have no leg to stand on...while still acknowledging that Matthews has the contract he has for valid reasons...

BET ON YOURSELF MITCH and then take Dubas to the cleaners (with full fan support not that it means anything and your brand perfectly intact) should his play continue to rise

Best of both worlds...stops this ludicrous Marner Matthews comparison gets him signed with the knowledge that if he is everything he seems to be Dubas better open the checkbook

The only people making up this Marner vs Matty narrative are Marner's agent for negotiation purposes and the media. Mitch knows. But why the hell won't he let his agent work his magic and try to get more. and if Dubie makes a mistake oh well good for Mitch. No issue if this goes right up to camp really. But it will cause issues if this delays camp and preseason and i think everyone learned from Willy that it can't go there again. It hurts the team. So best to enjoy your summer and some bbqs and coronas and play golf and have fun man that is what summer is for R&R.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Well there's your first problem. Sports radio is like getting your world view from Fox News.

Fox is more reliable nice try though

 

[JayfromNB1219]

The only people making up this Marner vs Matty narrative are Marner's agent for negotiation purposes and the media. Mitch knows. But why the hell won't he let his agent work his magic and try to get more. and if Dubie makes a mistake oh well good for Mitch. No issue if this goes right up to camp really. But it will cause issues if this delays camp and preseason and i think everyone learned from Willy that it can't go there again. It hurts the team. So best to enjoy your summer and some bbqs and coronas and play golf and have fun man that is what summer is for R&R.

Yeah I work my A$$ off in summer lol it's not a relaxing time for me haha
add in the fact I'm a big Ginger and summer is my worst time of year lol

 

[Notsince67]

People's thoughts?

I like Carlo. Nothing wrong with an opinion from an ex-player who follows the leafs opposed to a nobody who fails to address the point

 

[IPS]

People's thoughts?

'Bout the same thoughts I've had the whole time. Marner is simply not as effective as a player as Matthews.

The injuries suck for sure, but on the game-per-game basis and on the minute basis, Matthews is just the Leaf's best player. It still surprises me that Babcock's disgraceful usage of him has hoodwinked some folks here about just how good Matthews really is.

 

[thewave]

All in all what I see is the Leafs of today are no different than the JFJ Leafs. Muskoka 5 is being rebuilt, big contracts and overpays handed out. No planning for the future, spending assets for cap. It's the same old story. They'll win a championship when I see it.

What a joke organization 50 Years running. My Buds never deserved a fate so cruel and neither have the fans.

 

[Sypher04]

In fairness, if Marner asked for 11.6 x 5 and at the last minute he dropped to 10.8MM x 6, does it mean he caved? Perhaps but many of us would still call it an overpayment...albeit with the intention of pragmatism layered in

Well let's say for arguments sake that the Leafs were offering 10.5/5 and Marner was stuck at 11.6/5 and at the last minute he dropped it to 10.8/5 like you said, then yes, I'd say he caved. I think it entirely depends on the state of offers on the both ends, but I think the idea that the party who phoned last minute was the one who "caved" or made the significant move in position to get a deal done is a reasonable one in most scenarios.

 

[IPS]

All in all what I see is the Leafs of today are no different than the JFJ Leafs. Muskoka 5 is being rebuilt, big contracts and overpays handed out. No planning for the future, spending assets for cap. It's the same old story. They'll win a championship when I see it.

What a joke organization 50 Years running. My Buds never deserved a date so cruel and neither have the fans.

Typical Leafs, it's always f***ing something that has to go wrong.

But this episode is especially cruel because we actually have legitimately world-class talent this time around.

 

[thewave]

Typical Leafs, it's always ****ing something that has to go wrong.

But this episode is especially cruel because we actually have legitimately world-class talent this time around.

It pucking sucks man, I am throwing my phone and outs for a bit. Hope this management group can fix their you know what before we fan on another season.

Add. And don't pretend we don't have a rental D core. Love that going in to negotiations with the title, overpayers.