Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread

[Twine Tickler]

He's going to a much better team so if there is offense in him, it will show up this season. His production in the Marlies and now pre season is a good sign but small sample size.

Honestly I think Kokkonen is sneaky underrated by our fanbase. He is a very smart player and he already has a relatively high floor with his simple yet strong 2-way play. He was never really given much opportunity to showcase his offensive side for Finland on the international stage because he was counted on to play a more shut down role. Not too sure the same could be said for his time in Jukurit. All I can tell is that his team must have been complete dog shit, because they only won 18 games last year and their leading scorer was a D-man with 28pts in 55 games lol. So it would be a bit unfair to judge him purely off his stat line.

He has always shown very well for Finland IMO, and it was very obvious that the coaching staff had complete trust in him to eat hard minutes on the back end last WJC. He was always out on the PK and with the net pulled, and I have this vague recollection that he was among the leaders in the tourney at controlled exits. I have no data to support that, I just remember it was talked about on here. He was eventually awarded 1 of the 3 top players for Finland as voted by their coaching staff if memory serves correct. Which kind of shows just how much he meant to that team.

If he can add a little offense to his game he could be a complete wild card. He has shown that he can do so in the past, and he played very well in the 11 games with the Marlies having 7pts in 11GP. Which was only 3 pts back from his entire season total in the SM-Liiga. That kind of just illustrates how bad Jukerit must have really been, and/or how fractional his role must have been with that club. Because I would go as far as saying the AHL is a better league than the SM-Liiga, and he looked more than comfortable in the A with an expanded role.

Hopefully he gets a good look with Pelicans, if not I'd love to have him back to play in the AHL with the Marlies.

 

[Fogelhund]

Rubins with the goal.

 

[Minty Cowboy]

Rubins with the goal.

Smooth skater for a big man

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Honestly I think Kokkonen is sneaky underrated by our fanbase. He is a very smart player and he already has a relatively high floor with his simple yet strong 2-way play. He was never really given much opportunity to showcase his offensive side for Finland on the international stage because he was counted on to play a more shut down role. Not too sure the same could be said for his time in Jukurit. All I can tell is that his team must have been complete dog shit, because they only won 18 games last year and their leading scorer was a D-man with 28pts in 55 games lol. So it would be a bit unfair to judge him purely off his stat line.

He has always shown very well for Finland IMO, and it was very obvious that the coaching staff had complete trust in him to eat hard minutes on the back end last WJC. He was always out on the PK and with the net pulled, and I have this vague recollection that he was among the leaders in the tourney at controlled exits. I have no data to support that, I just remember it was talked about on here. He was eventually awarded 1 of the 3 top players for Finland as voted by their coaching staff if memory serves correct. Which kind of shows just how much he meant to that team.

If he can add a little offense to his game he could be a complete wild card. He has shown that he can do so in the past, and he played very well in the 11 games with the Marlies having 7pts in 11GP. Which was only 3 pts back from his entire season total in the SM-Liiga. That kind of just illustrates how bad Jukerit must have really been, and/or how fractional his role must have been with that club. Because I would go as far as saying the AHL is a better league than the SM-Liiga, and he looked more than comfortable in the A with an expanded role.

Hopefully he gets a good look with Pelicans, if not I'd love to have him back to play in the AHL with the Marlies.

The ahl is most definitely a worse league than Liiga. NHL, KHL, SHL, LIIGA, are all definitively ahead of the AHL. Most rankings have the Czech Liiga next and then the AHL, DEL(German League), and SWISS NAT. A League all basically interchangeable.

 

[Morgs]

The ahl is most definitely a worse league than Liiga. NHL, KHL, SHL, LIIGA, are all definitively ahead of the AHL. Most rankings have the Czech Liiga next and then the AHL, DEL(German League), and SWISS NAT. A League all basically interchangeable.

KHL & SHL are easily the two best outside the NHL. AHL is clearly #3 though. Liiga and CZE likely close out the top-5.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The ahl is most definitely a worse league than Liiga. NHL, KHL, SHL, LIIGA, are all definitively ahead of the AHL. Most rankings have the Czech Liiga next and then the AHL, DEL(German League), and SWISS NAT. A League all basically interchangeable.

I think you are underrating the AHL. DEL and Czech league are closer to ECHL quality than AHL quality.

The main thing that the top European leagues have on the AHL is that they can have elite talent playing there at 18/19 whereas in North America, the highest end guys are either in the NHL or need to be sent back to the NCAA/CHL. However, that does not change the following:

1) The vast majority of new players fed into the NHL come from the AHL, including many guys who originally were very good players in their respective countries but later needed to come to the AHL to develop for another couple of years. Very few guys are good enough to make the jump directly from the European leagues to the NHL without getting used to the lack of time and space in the AHL first.
2) It is far more common to see players either maintain or improve their overall quality of play jumping from the AHL to the European leagues than the other way around.

The AHL is legitimately in contention for being the best league in the world behind the NHL. There may be some teams in the KHL/SHL/Liiga with a ton of high end young talent or really deep pockets that may be able to beat a fair number of AHL teams, but overall, the quality in the AHL exceeds that of the European leagues.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

KHL & SHL are easily the two best outside the NHL. AHL is clearly #3 though. Liiga and CZE likely close out the top-5.

NLA would be ahead of the Czech league.

Czech league and DEL are on the same pegging these days. The quality of the Czech/Slovak leagues has fallen off a lot in the past decade, with a lot of their top young talent fleeing to either the CHL or Finland (and occasionally Sweden).

The thing with the KHL (but also the SHL) is that while you have teams like CSKA and SKA who are better than most, if not all, AHL teams, you also have teams like Kunlun, Riga, etc. who would would have little chance against even the worst of AHL squads. Same goes for the SHL and those teams fighting to avoid relegation, although on a far lesser scale. Even then, I don't think Vaxjo would be anywhere near the top team in the league in the AHL, even though they were the top team in the SHL and won the Championship. Erik Kallgren went from having his contract terminated because he was stuck behind Hill/Prosvetov in Tuscon to being the goalie that led Vaxjo to a Championship in the SHL in the course of a year. It would be a pretty massive leap in development to go from #3 goalie in a supposedly inferior league to dominate starting goalie in a superior league's playoffs in just one season.

 

[Morgs]

NLA would be ahead of the Czech league.

Czech league and DEL are on the same pegging these days. The quality of the Czech/Slovak leagues has fallen off a lot in the past decade, with a lot of their top young talent fleeing to either the CHL or Finland (and occasionally Sweden).

The thing with the KHL (but also the SHL) is that while you have teams like CSKA and SKA who are better than most, if not all, AHL teams, you also have teams like Kunlun, Riga, etc. who would would have little chance against even the worst of AHL squads. Same goes for the SHL and those teams fighting to avoid relegation, although on a far lesser scale. Even then, I don't think Vaxjo would be anywhere near the top team in the league in the AHL, even though they were the top team in the SHL and won the Championship. Erik Kallgren went from having his contract terminated because he was stuck behind Hill/Prosvetov in Tuscon to being the goalie that led Vaxjo to a Championship in the SHL in the course of a year. It would be a pretty massive leap in development to go from #3 goalie in a supposedly inferior league to dominate starting goalie in a superior league's playoffs in just one season.

I had a whole post lost because it refreshed on mobile:

sum: I don't believe an average AHL team could beat an average SHL one and I don't think goalies are a good representation of skill gaps between leagues.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

KHL & SHL are easily the two best outside the NHL. AHL is clearly #3 though. Liiga and CZE likely close out the top-5.

I think you are underrating the AHL. DEL and Czech league are closer to ECHL quality than AHL quality.

The main thing that the top European leagues have on the AHL is that they can have elite talent playing there at 18/19 whereas in North America, the highest end guys are either in the NHL or need to be sent back to the NCAA/CHL. However, that does not change the following:

1) The vast majority of new players fed into the NHL come from the AHL, including many guys who originally were very good players in their respective countries but later needed to come to the AHL to develop for another couple of years. Very few guys are good enough to make the jump directly from the European leagues to the NHL without getting used to the lack of time and space in the AHL first.
2) It is far more common to see players either maintain or improve their overall quality of play jumping from the AHL to the European leagues than the other way around.

The AHL is legitimately in contention for being the best league in the world behind the NHL. There may be some teams in the KHL/SHL/Liiga with a ton of high end young talent or really deep pockets that may be able to beat a fair number of AHL teams, but overall, the quality in the AHL exceeds that of the European leagues.

This is not my rankings, these are public rankings made by hockey writers.
https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/
This list from the hockey writers ranks the AHL #8, behind all the leagues I listed.

Top 10 Best Ice Hockey Leagues
Yardbarker has the same rankings as the hockey writers, might be a copy paste. I also have no idea what yardbarker is.

What Are the Best Hockey Leagues in the World? | Pure Hockey
This only lists the top 5, but the AHL isn't 1 of them.

Ranking the Top Ten Hockey Leagues
This published way back in 2015 ranked the AHL #4

That is just the first page of a Google search.

Edit

Yes the Yardbarker list is a simple copy paste from the hockey writers.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

This is not my rankings, these are public rankings made by hockey writers.
https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/
This list from the hockey writers ranks the AHL #8, behind all the leagues I listed.

Top 10 Best Ice Hockey Leagues
Yardbarker has the same rankings as the hockey writers, might be a copy paste. I also have no idea what yardbarker is.

What Are the Best Hockey Leagues in the World? | Pure Hockey
This only lists the top 5, but the AHL isn't 1 of them.

Ranking the Top Ten Hockey Leagues
This published way back in 2015 ranked the AHL #4

That is just the first page of a Google search.

Edit

Yes the Yardbarker list is a simple copy paste from the hockey writers.

All of them are extremely weak in their justification. They are ranking the country more than the league (which works against the AHL because all of the credit will go to the NHL), and they are also basing it off of viewership and fanbase, which means nothing in terms of developing talent and is another disadvantage for the AHL.

They did nothing to justify quality of teams or competition, nor the fact that the AHL has probably developed more NHL players than all of those leagues combined.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

This is not my rankings, these are public rankings made by hockey writers.
https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/
This list from the hockey writers ranks the AHL #8, behind all the leagues I listed.

Top 10 Best Ice Hockey Leagues
Yardbarker has the same rankings as the hockey writers, might be a copy paste. I also have no idea what yardbarker is.

What Are the Best Hockey Leagues in the World? | Pure Hockey
This only lists the top 5, but the AHL isn't 1 of them.

Ranking the Top Ten Hockey Leagues
This published way back in 2015 ranked the AHL #4

That is just the first page of a Google search.

Edit

Yes the Yardbarker list is a simple copy paste from the hockey writers.

AHL is a level above Liiga, anyone who has watched a handful of games from these two leagues over the last 5 years knows this.

 

[zeke]

This is not my rankings, these are public rankings made by hockey writers.
https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/
This list from the hockey writers ranks the AHL #8, behind all the leagues I listed.

Top 10 Best Ice Hockey Leagues
Yardbarker has the same rankings as the hockey writers, might be a copy paste. I also have no idea what yardbarker is.

What Are the Best Hockey Leagues in the World? | Pure Hockey
This only lists the top 5, but the AHL isn't 1 of them.

Ranking the Top Ten Hockey Leagues
This published way back in 2015 ranked the AHL #4

That is just the first page of a Google search.

Edit

Yes the Yardbarker list is a simple copy paste from the hockey writers.

Hockeywriters is junk btw.

 

[Knies iT]

NHL
-
KHL
-
AHL
SHL
Liiga
-
NLA
Extraliga
DEL

The DEL will be on a major come-up over the next decade.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I had a whole post lost because it refreshed on mobile:

sum: I don't believe an average AHL team could beat an average SHL one and I don't think goalies are a good representation of skill gaps between leagues.

I think an average AHL team would beat an average SHL team unless that SHL team had a few gamebreakers on it (in which case I am not really sure they would be "average" anymore).

If you don't want to do goalies, then use Holmberg. I doubt he is a playoff MVP in the AHL. I am not even sure he would be a top 6 forward on the Marlies if they have Brooks, Malgin, Anderson, Gogolev, SDA, and Robertson (plus Amadio).

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Further proof the AHL isn't as good as people think. Look no further back than the 2018 Olympics. 3 Canadians made that team that won bronze from the AHL. The Germans won silver. All their players came from the DEL.
The USA who didn't medal. Had more players playing NCAA than they did playing AHL 4-3. And 7 in total from NA, the rest played in Europe. Norway was the only other team to bring a player from NA, and that player played NCAA.

 

[Twine Tickler]

The ahl is most definitely a worse league than Liiga. NHL, KHL, SHL, LIIGA, are all definitively ahead of the AHL. Most rankings have the Czech Liiga next and then the AHL, DEL(German League), and SWISS NAT. A League all basically interchangeable.

Ya I am not too sure about this as well. I always had it as:

NHL
-
KHL
-
AHL
SHL
-
Liiga
DEL
-
NLA
Extraliga

Very Similar to what @Knies iT said but with AHL and SHL being superior to Liiga and DEL. I have been under the impression that Liiga has suffered since losing Jokerit Helskinki to the KHL. At the very least I would consider them to be on par with the AHL. I think in recent years the AHL has really become a far more skilled league. It has almost removed all of its goons. It also has among the highest NHL bound talent out of any league in the world.

If you look at an individual player for example:

Daniel Audette, who I know very little of. Drafted by the Canadians and played with St Johns/Laval for 5 seasons in the AHL. His best season was 38pts in 58GP. He went on to play in Finland for the championship winning club Lukko Rauma this year, where he amassed 50Pts in 60GP. Daniel is a run of the mill AHL'er who I didn't even know existed until today. He was the the leading scorer for his championship winning squad and 2nd overall in league scoring in 2020-21. An accomplishment he never even sniffed in the A

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Further proof the AHL isn't as good as people think. Look no further back than the 2018 Olympics. 3 Canadians made that team that won bronze from the AHL. The Germans won silver. All their players came from the DEL.
The USA who didn't medal. Had more players playing NCAA than they did playing AHL 4-3. And 7 in total from NA, the rest played in Europe. Norway was the only other team to bring a player from NA, and that player played NCAA.

That is because only guys on AHL contracts could go. Anyone on an SPC, which is the vast majority of good AHL players, was not allowed to go. Thomas, Golobef, and Kelly (who signed an SPC after the Olympics) were the best AHL contracts Canada had obviously... however you are already talking about guys who are below average vs. the rest of the AHL. Most of them are bottom 6 quality or worse.

If the SPC's in the AHL were allowed to go, I would bet most of that Canadian team would be sourced from the AHL and most guys who made that 2018 team would not be on the roster at all. When two of the best leagues in the world are cut off, you need to scrape the barrel.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Ya I am not too sure about this as well. I always had it as:

NHL
-
KHL
-
AHL
SHL
-
Liiga
DEL
-
NLA
Extraliga

Very Similar to what @Knies iT said but with AHL and SHL being superior to Liiga and DEL. I have been under the impression that Liiga has suffered since losing Jokerit Helskinki to the KHL. At the very least I would consider them to be on par with the AHL. I think in recent years the AHL has really become a far more skilled league. It has almost removed all of its goons. It also has among the highest NHL bound talent out of any league in the world.

If you look at an individual player for example:

Daniel Audette, who I know very little of. Drafted by the Canadians and played with St Johns/Laval for 5 seasons in the AHL. His best season was 38pts in 58GP. He went on to play in Finland for the championship winning club Lukko Rauma this year, where he amassed 50Pts in 60GP. Daniel is a run of the mill AHL'er who I didn't even know existed until today. He was the the leading scorer for his championship winning squad and 2nd overall in league scoring in 2020-21. An accomplishment he never even sniffed in the A

View attachment 462662

Josh Kestner is another example. Played 4 AHL games with the Marlies in 2+ seasons since he left the NCAA and went on to put up something like 45 points in his first year in Liiga. Not quite as good as his ECHL production the year prior (although about the same as his production the year before that), but nobody is arguing the ECHL is a high caliber league.

As you said, Liiga is a lot worse than it was, just like the Czech league. Unlike the Czech league, it still has a good crop of elite youngsters that pops up every year (the last one straight out of the Czech league I found was Hertl, and that was 8 years ago), and that raises the quality a little bit, but very few guys come straight to the NHL from the Liiga and those who do are higher quality than anyone we currently have there. If things go well, they may only need a year in the AHL before they start getting NHL consideration, but they will need at least one, if not 2, years before that is serious consideration. Kapanen needed 3.5 years to make the NHL full time and that is probably the best case scenario for Niemela, Hirvonen, and Kokkonen.

 

[stickty111]

Pre season assist for Holmberg

 

[Knies iT]

Ya I am not too sure about this as well. I always had it as:

NHL
-
KHL
-
AHL
SHL
-
Liiga
DEL
-
NLA
Extraliga

Very Similar to what @Knies iT said but with AHL and SHL being superior to Liiga and DEL. I have been under the impression that Liiga has suffered since losing Jokerit Helskinki to the KHL. At the very least I would consider them to be on par with the AHL. I think in recent years the AHL has really become a far more skilled league. It has almost removed all of its goons. It also has among the highest NHL bound talent out of any league in the world.

If you look at an individual player for example:

Daniel Audette, who I know very little of. Drafted by the Canadians and played with St Johns/Laval for 5 seasons in the AHL. His best season was 38pts in 58GP. He went on to play in Finland for the championship winning club Lukko Rauma this year, where he amassed 50Pts in 60GP. Daniel is a run of the mill AHL'er who I didn't even know existed until today. He was the the leading scorer for his championship winning squad and 2nd overall in league scoring in 2020-21. An accomplishment he never even sniffed in the A

View attachment 462662

You're right. I know personally of multiple players coming out of the OHL who have gone on AHL tryouts/AHL contracts only to be cut with < 20-30GP and pursue leagues in Europe with numerous offers. Statistically they improve and often play 5+ years comfortably.

There is no way the AHL is behind Liiga. The SHL is closer but still behind. SHL is generally a low scoring league because there's a heavier emphasis on players adhering to coaching systems and 5on5 team play but it's not necessarily a higher skill/deeper league in aggregate. Guys like Pettersson, Nylander, Lindblom, etc. are the exception, not the rule, as most Swedish players struggle adjusting to the AHL.

And what's the definition of a "better" league? IMO it's the league that replicates NHL (highest tier) play the closest and produces the most NHL caliber talent. Different sized ice sheets are major factors/adjustments, which is why the KHL is separating itself from second rate leagues even further with the changes to sheet size.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

You're right. I know personally of multiple players coming out of the OHL who have gone on AHL tryouts/AHL contracts only to be cut with < 20-30GP and pursue leagues in Europe with numerous offers. Statistically they improve and often play 5+ years comfortably.

There is no way the AHL is behind Liiga. The SHL is closer but still behind. SHL is generally a low scoring league because there's a heavier emphasis on players adhering to coaching systems and 5on5 team play but it's not necessarily a higher skill/deeper league in aggregate. Guys like Pettersson, Nylander, Lindblom, etc. are the exception, not the rule, as most Swedish players struggle adjusting to the AHL.

And what's the definition of a "better" league? IMO it's the league that replicates NHL (highest tier) play the closest and produces the most NHL caliber talent. Different sized ice sheets are major factors/adjustments, which is why the KHL is separating itself from second rate leagues even further with the changes to sheet size.

I'll concede that Liiga skill has fallen off, but the SHL is much closer to the level of the KHL than the AHL is the to SHL. The SHL has lower scoring because yes teams follow systems much better. The quality of goaltending is also much higher. And they don't hand out powerplays like candy on Halloween.

This whole debate started based on the AHL being the 2nd or 3rd best in the world. It's not. You could make a case for it being #4, but if you put together a tournament for AHL Allstars vs. Allstars from the various European leagues, the European league Allstars would win more often than the AHL Allstars.

And I mean an Allstar team from each European league, and not just 1 team comprised off the best players from each league if that wasn't clear.

 

[stickty111]

Hirvonen OT goal in champions league today.

 

[Minty Cowboy]

Hirvonen OT goal in champions league today.

Looks a little faster than last year

 

[nuck]

I'll concede that Liiga skill has fallen off, but the SHL is much closer to the level of the KHL than the AHL is the to SHL. The SHL has lower scoring because yes teams follow systems much better. The quality of goaltending is also much higher. And they don't hand out powerplays like candy on Halloween.

This whole debate started based on the AHL being the 2nd or 3rd best in the world. It's not. You could make a case for it being #4, but if you put together a tournament for AHL Allstars vs. Allstars from the various European leagues, the European league Allstars would win more often than the AHL Allstars.

And I mean an Allstar team from each European league, and not just 1 team comprised off the best players from each league if that wasn't clear.

Look at players like Dawes, Da Costa. Hartikainen, Omark, Shoshnikov or Kozun who played in both the AHL and the KHL. Ben Scrivens is as effective in the K as he was in the AHL Based on their success, the level of play does not seem to be that far apart except for some legit stars who are making NHL money.

SweHL is a little harder to compare as the money is closer to AHL so there seems to be less NA migration. The sample is small but Ryan Lasch looked like he had an AHL skill set and was a SweHL scoring champion. Joel Persson produced about the same in Bakersfield as in Vaxjo. HV71 Engvall looks pretty similar to him as a Marlie in 2018. The biggest argument for the quality of the SweHL is the number of players it supplies to a very competitive national team program.

 

[ottomaddox]

What's up with the Marlies' website?

It seems frozen in time.

Is it wise to just follow their Twitter or Facebook?