Marc Bergevin Press Conference 1 PM

[teamfirst]

I never argued he didn't have good linemates...I argued he had no stable linemates.

You know...stability, the same thing every other center on this team was afforded.

All KK got was the coaching staff recycling the coldest wingers from the top 6 onto his line

Maybe just maybe it was due to his play, wingers like Anderson and Toffoli need to produce if they dont you need to make changes as simple as that, there's things a coach can do to help a player development but in the end it will always be the player that will dictate his utilisation.

Let's face it KK didn't have a good year 2 and 3, now it's up to him to put it all together he's still young and i'm sure that the Canes will put him in a good spot to produce they have to with the contract they gave him

 

[Belial]

It's unreasonable because you're expecting him to do produce more than his peers, the guys who played similar roles and had similar ice time across the league.

Once more, he produced what other 3rd line players produced across the league.

3rd line ice time = 3rd line production.

You're expecting:

3rd line ice time = top 6 production.


Perhaps he benefitted from the stability??

What are you talking about my friend?

I was not expecting him to put up 60 points.

I was expecting him to do better than his rookie year and that's a perfectly fine expectation.

That is what development means... You do better than you did before but in his case, it went the other way.

 

[417]

Maybe just maybe it was due to his play, wingers like Anderson and Toffoli need to produce if they dont you need to make changes as simple as that, there's things a coach can do to help a player development but in the end it will always be the player that will dictate his utilisation.

Let's face it KK didn't have a good year 2 and 3, now it's up to him to put it all together he's still young and i'm sure that the Canes will put him in a good spot to produce they have to with the contract they gave him

Yes clearly ..had his play been up to par we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But I also don't think they set him up for success.

So they have to eat that too and if you listen to the GM today, even he acknowledges it.

 

[417]

What are you talking about my friend?

I was not expecting him to put up 60 points.

I was expecting him to do better than his rookie year and that's a perfectly fine expectation.

That is what development means... You do better than you did before but in his case, it went the other way.

He performed similar to his rookie season, used in the exact role he had his rookie season.

Expecting the outcome to be different when the variables are virtually identical is not being realistic.

I don't think you're being unreasonable saying he hasn't progressed enough

But I do think you're being unreasonable of recognizing the factors that led to that lack of progression.

 

[Belial]

He performed similar to his rookie season, used in the exact role he had his rookie season.

Expecting the outcome to be different when the variables are virtually identical is not being realistic.

I don't think you're being unreasonable saying he hasn't progressed enough

But I do think you're being unreasonable of recognizing the factors that led to that lack of progression.

Geez man, he did not perform as well as he did in his rookie year. He was on pace for 29 points with better linemates and more ice time and being 2 years older!

Even with the same exact linemates and the same TOI, you would expect progression after 3 years in the league.

He did worse!

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Maybe just maybe it was due to his play, wingers like Anderson and Toffoli need to produce if they dont you need to make changes as simple as that, there's things a coach can do to help a player development but in the end it will always be the player that will dictate his utilisation.

Let's face it KK didn't have a good year 2 and 3, now it's up to him to put it all together he's still young and i'm sure that the Canes will put him in a good spot to produce they have to with the contract they gave him

''due to his play'' meanwhile Danault had the best winger all regular season while being absolute dogshit. But I guess its only good for KK.

KK was handled like shit for 3 years , straight fact. This team had preferences but gladly most of those players are gone now.

 

[teamfirst]

Yes clearly ..had his play been up to par we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But I also don't think they set him up for success.

So they have to eat that too and if you listen to the GM today, even he acknowledges it.

Of course they do, it's never always one sided but to me in the end it will always be up to the players to dictate their usage just like Caufield and Susuki did at the end of last season and i think that KK will have a great season this year

 

[417]

Anyways @Belial you seem pretty dug in on your stance that this is all on Kotkaniemi.

And I'm not trying to change your take but I think you should consider also looking at the entire path to today and recognize the areas where the organization could have done a better job handling him.

That's my take on it...and you know I'm not one who thinks MB is incompetent and that this organization can't develop prospects.

I just think this is the 2nd top 3 pick within 6 years of each other that didn't work out the way it should have been. So whether that's the scouting or development...

They're the ones making the pick...if you want to take the position that it's all on the player, fine.

But just recognize that no one put a gun to their heads to draft this player...

 

[417]

Of course they do, it's never always one sided but to me in the end it will always be up to the players to dictate their usage just like Caufield and Susuki did at the end of last season and i think that KK will have a great season this year

I don't actually believe it's always up to the player to determine their usage.

It's a nice thing to believe but there's way too much evidence that shows that's rarely how things go.

I just watched Jon Merril play a bunch of important games for the Habs and it's certainly not his play that warranted that usage.

 

[Belial]

Anyways @Belial you seem pretty dug in on your stance that this is all on Kotkaniemi.

And I'm not trying to change your take but I think you should consider also looking at the entire path to today and recognize the areas where the organization could have done a better job handling him.

That's my take on it...and you know I'm not one who thinks MB is incompetent and that this organization can't develop prospects.

I just think this is the 2nd top 3 pick within 6 years of each other that didn't work out the way it should have been. So whether that's the scouting or development...

They're the ones making the pick...if you want to take the position that it's all on the player, fine.

But just recognize that no one put a gun to their heads to draft this player...

I just don't see where exactly the organization mishandled him apart from maybe rushing him to the NHL but then again he looked perfectly fine in his rookie year.

He just never managed to really improve in 3 years. The ice time was there linemates were decent enough and he was getting PP time.

What else exactly the organization could've done differently apart from rushing him?

 

[417]

I just don't see where exactly the organization mishandled him apart from maybe rushing him to the NHL but then again he looked perfectly fine in his rookie year.

He just never managed to really improve in 3 years. The ice time was there linemates were decent enough and he was getting PP time.

What else exactly the organization could've done differently apart from rushing him?

So why didn't they result in increased responsibilities in year 2?

Oh yes...he had a bad camp.

So year 1...he had a good camp, let's bring
him to the NHL at 18.

Year 2...he has a bad camp...let's leave him on the 3rd line playing the same role until be proves he can handle more.

All of these are bad decisions that are just thinking of the short term.

It's a series of these bad decisions that have led to this.

I brought this example earlier...

But Jack Hughes year 1 wasn't good...he finished 7th among Devils forwards in playing time.

Year 2...he finished 1st among Devils forwards in playing time.

That's typically what happens with high picks.

 

[Belial]

So why didn't they result in increased responsibilities in year 2?

Oh yes...he had a bad camp.

So year 1...he had a good camp, let's bring
him to the NHL at 18.

Year 2...he has a bad camp...let's leave him on the 3rd line playing the same role until be proves he can handle more.

All of these are bad decisions that are just thinking of the short term.

It's a series of these bad decisions that have led to this.

I brought this example earlier...

But Jack Hughes year 1 wasn't good...he finished 7th among Devils forwards in playing time.

Year 2...he finished 1st among Devils forwards in playing time.

That's typically what happens with high picks.

Was he better than the players ahead of him?

Sometimes I think you don't even care about the team as a whole and you just want your prefered player to succeed...

Why would he get more ice time if he sucks?

 

[HostileCapSpace]

Ha ha, he looks like a street bum that just crawled out of the shower.

To lighten the mood:

If MB looks like a bum then I wonder what Waddell looked like the other day. Dude was in a t-shirt in his car parked on the side of the road to announce KK as a Cane. One could even speculate they weren't prepared to make that announcement. (I know, I know, it was Labour Day weekend)

 

[teamfirst]

I don't actually believe it's always up to the player to determine their usage.

It's a nice thing to believe but there's way too much evidence that shows that's rarely how things go.

I just watched Jon Merril play a bunch of important games for the Habs and it's certainly not his play that warranted that usage.

I'd changed the word ''always'' with ''most of the time''


To simple for you to believe even if most of the coach in the NHL would agree with it, ya.......sometimes things are that simple

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

If Molson says no rebuild, no trading vets for picks what else can Bergevin do ? Exactly what he does. Which is why I am fine with him. I wish we would do better in drafting and developing but let's be real, another GM and things can get uglier real fast.

I love how he dealt with KK. He was trying to sign him and KK made up his mind he was gone, play hard to get, sign elsewhere and we get the best return possible in the situation without screwing up the salary structure. Dvorak to me is better than KK and Danault united. Poehling seem in the mix to be the third which is nice. I think he will surprise. We have other option in case it doesn't work. The defense is our weakest link but our strength in the prospect pool so it should all work out sooner than later. Will root for them again next year. Too bad for those stuck in hating our team.

This is what a lot of fans forget. GMs don't have free reign to do whatever they please. If the owner mandates icing a playoff competitive team, then they either attempt to do that or lose their job. Molson has publicly said he doesn't believe our fanbase would accept a full tear down. And that was before our run to the cup finals.

Firing Bergevin wouldn't accomplish anything because Molson would only hire someone who's willing to push for playoff success.

That all said, Bergevin has done reasonably well the last few years. That doesn't erase his prior horrendous tenure but it does earn him a chance to see this team through at least another season or two.

 

[JianYang]

This is what a lot of fans forget. GMs don't have free reign to do whatever they please. If the owner mandates icing a playoff competitive team, then they either attempt to do that or lose their job. Molson has publicly said he doesn't believe our fanbase would accept a full tear down. And that was before our run to the cup finals.

Firing Bergevin wouldn't accomplish anything because Molson would only hire someone who's willing to push for playoff success.

That all said, Bergevin has done reasonably well the last few years. That doesn't erase his prior horrendous tenure but it does earn him a chance to see this team through at least another season or two.

Your point about Molson's objectives is so important to understand, but many people tend to overlook it. Bergevin has to work within the confines of his mandates.

If Molson says that he is willing to tear down and rebuild, the GM has no choice but to execute that. Similarly, if Molson says he wants to make the playoffs, then Bergevin can't tear it down unless he wants to lose his job.

This is actually something fans do around the league. Benning gets alot of flack for his transactions but they also have an impatient, and meddling owner who sees things differently.

I don't think Bergevin is the complete idiot that some paint him out to be, but I can't see how this can be considered a positive offseason even if we presume molson's mandate is to make the playoffs.

Weber has been downgraded this summer to the point where some people say savard can fill his shoes. I think there is a rude awakening coming for those who think like this. This is a net loss.

I also see comments of how this team is better off after the Dvorak deal, but you have to look at the entire summer. Dvorak is taking Danault's role and the price was kotkaniemi. The center ice position is not as deep as it was last year at the end of the day.

It's not nearly as bad as the 2017 offseason, but it's not exactly a positive offseason either.... Not for those who want the habs to make the playoffs, or for those who want a committed rebuild.

 

[Bacchus1]

If Dvorak is a good solid #2 behind Suzuki, and will put up 45-55 points, then I think our C is better than last year.

Last year, KK was still in development faze and had futures value that hadn’t been realized. He played mainly 3rd C.

Danault was frustrating because he found it challenging to score (and was disappointed by contract negotiations).

Staal was only signed late in the season, and Evans hadn’t had his playoffs coming out party yet, though he started to show promise near the end of the season.

Now we have a host of options for 3/4 C , and Poehling a wildcard who could seize an opportunity for success.

If the Team does well, we might pick up another veteran C for the playoffs if needed, but I hope that it isn’t necessary.

I’m more excited about our center lineup than last year, for sure.

 

[WG]

Was he better than the players ahead of him?

Sometimes I think you don't even care about the team as a whole and you just want your prefered player to succeed...

Why would he get more ice time if he sucks?

Or, behind door #3, the progression of young players = team success, especially those drafted high and those cited over and over by the team as key to the next 10 years. As Bergevin's reset or rejig or whatever was unfolding, it was clear that the team actually being a true contender would be highly dependent on KK, Suzuki, CC and Romanov becoming the basis for a new core of top 6 F and top line D.

I don't think people desperately wanted KK to succeed because he has a nice smile, but because the team needed him to excel for the team to rise to true contender status and not just a bubble team trying to scrape into the playoffs. And given that the defining trait of the current regime is busted picks left and right, maybe folks are tired of not seeing any improvement on that front. Here in year 10, the team will have 6, maybe 7 drafted players in their lineup next year, two of whom were here when MB started (Gally, Price), two/three bottom 6 grinders (Evans, Lek, maybe Poehling) and two players who might profile as top F or D (CC, Romanov). Yet the people responsible for drafting and development seem to get a free pass from some.

 

[jaffy27]

Hey, question : where do you fly these days?

Going to England in 2 days, then I fly to Leipzig Germany, back to England then 3 days off there, then back home.

I'm in my vacation time of the calendar year so pretty much that's my only flight of the month.

Spent a month in Japan in May doing China flights, lots of international stuff.

Why, you somewhere I go??

DM me if you want

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think potentials stars ands sure fire NHL players make a prospect pool. If the Habs are going to be perennial contenders in the futures they need impact players. NHL players like Lehkonen, Evans are good to have but they aren’t going to win a team the Cup, players like Point, Hedman, and Kucherov do that. On the roster, yes Suzuki and Caufield are two up and coming impact players, Romanov maybe. Outside of Guhle I’m not sure who else can be a top roster player for the Habs.

As far as where the Habs current roster is concerned the problem is they play in a very tough division and conference. I think 8 of the best 10 teams in the league are in the East (Colorado and Vegas being the other two). I still see them in the 9-12 range in the conference putting them outside the playoffs and, unfortunately, I see their draft pick in the 11-16 range in 2022.

I understand what you are saying but lets not pretend that other teams have several stars in their pool. Very few do! And lets not ignore Suzuki, Caufield, and Romanov cause they "graduated". The point of looking at team direction is both youth and the prospects that are in the pool. And also, for all we know, Guhle disappoints and Norlinder surprises. And BTW, we have a guy who is a contender for rookie of the year this year too! Lets not undersell the youth in our pool cause some guys graduated.

Deep pools help you fill holes once they become ready. This is not a negative. Our pool with the recent graduations has less grade A types and a shit load of B+, B, and B- types. Those types will move up and down and they will not stay at some linear level. It don't work that way. Some will fall off a cliff in value and some will bust out. And we got lots of them so even if we have a 1/4 batting average, we will come out with more than the average NHL players.

Stars? We have one in net and he's still going to be good for a few years yet if he stays healthy. Year after year contenders? That's not easy to build even if you are the Sens and you may like some of the pieces they got. You need pieces in a lot of places. Teams like the Leafs and Oilers have stars and are having difficulty. Personally, I'm not saying we will be year after year contenders with what we have today and what is coming but some will exaggerate it that way. What I am saying is I like our NHL roster cause it has more potential than what we had before and I like how deep our pool is. Both are in good directions which is the important part.

 

[sandviper]

Anyways @Belial you seem pretty dug in on your stance that this is all on Kotkaniemi.

And I'm not trying to change your take but I think you should consider also looking at the entire path to today and recognize the areas where the organization could have done a better job handling him.

That's my take on it...and you know I'm not one who thinks MB is incompetent and that this organization can't develop prospects.

I just think this is the 2nd top 3 pick within 6 years of each other that didn't work out the way it should have been. So whether that's the scouting or development...

They're the ones making the pick...if you want to take the position that it's all on the player, fine.

But just recognize that no one put a gun to their heads to draft this player...

Agreed and it goes beyond your examples of KK and Chuck. How many bottom-6 players have we produced in the past decade who contribute? Evans? Lehkonen? How many defencemen in our current top-4? None. How many bottom pair? I’d also argue none.

Scouts or development? The player? I mean, it’s always going to be a bit of all 3 but the fact is during Bergevin’s tenure, we haven’t developed a lot of players. We haven’t drafted (1st round) many regulars as well.

I will say we appear to be turning the corner in drafting and development but until we see these players make it to the show, as an organization we haven’t been very good in this department.

 

[blarneylad]

Anyways @Belial you seem pretty dug in on your stance that this is all on Kotkaniemi.

And I'm not trying to change your take but I think you should consider also looking at the entire path to today and recognize the areas where the organization could have done a better job handling him.

That's my take on it...and you know I'm not one who thinks MB is incompetent and that this organization can't develop prospects.

I just think this is the 2nd top 3 pick within 6 years of each other that didn't work out the way it should have been. So whether that's the scouting or development...

They're the ones making the pick...if you want to take the position that it's all on the player, fine.

But just recognize that no one put a gun to their heads to draft this player...

Don’t forget about acquiring a former 3rd overall who isn’t panning out.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Wait, what, Kk will be done at 24 but your boy dru dru was still young and developing at 25?

Another disingenuous approach with a belittle narrative. Only time I hear from you is BS like this. I can't control your comprehension skills, nor will I be held responsible for it either!

1) KK will reveal his true potential when he is 23/24. Where did I say he would be done? KK would still have more room to grow at 23/24 as he moves through prime years. Prime years for stars star earlier but he is not a star like Drouin. So you will go through growing pains usually.

2) I never said Drouin is still young and developing at age 25. I said it was his prime years and he should be more mature as he moves through his prime and 60-80 pts seasons could be possible if he is in the right situation. Age 25-30 range is an important span for the majority of NHL players. Dvorak's last 100 games from 24/25 is one example. 30-40 pts guy prior to that.

 

[Habs Halifax]

So MB basically has a free pass for the next 5 years no matter what happens with the NHL team as long as he fills it with players he got from other teams ans doesn't rush prospects? After that what? Will it be on the players again? Will it be the fault of the young players again like last time? When will MB be reason it doesn't work? That's what i want to know. If we start missing the playoffs again (what i think will happen if Suzuki and Caufield don't take the next step) then when enough gonna be enough? How many years?

I would not look at it as a free pass for 5 years and there are many other things to look at.

 

[417]

Was he better than the players ahead of him?

Sometimes I think you don't even care about the team as a whole and you just want your prefered player to succeed...

Why would he get more ice time if he sucks?

Kotkaniemi is my preferred player now? Really?

That's news to me.

Secondly, you need to stop trying to psycho analyze me, keep the discussion about the player. Not me.