The Sun: Maple Leafs on trial; heads may roll. Just about everything in question.

[Coaches Coroner]

"The Sun" lol.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Have we checked out the prospects?
Some really positive reviews coming in.
Might be too late for Dubas and Keefe.
Won't be too late for the fans though.

For those that are allergic to the prospects threads.

Ty Voit leading the OHL in scoring with 24 pts in 12 games on a team with no notable players.

Minten has 10 pts in his first 5 games in the WHL.

Moldenhauer leading the USHL in scoring and just committed to a big program in U. Michigan.

Knies continuing to be around ppg in the NCAA even though Cooley is still being a puck hog and not using his linemates.

Steeves has 7 pts in 7 games with the Marlies.

Petruzzelli has a .925 sv% in 4 games with the Marlies

 

[notbias]

Yup, he's a competitive beauty not some Dubanite pansy ass.

Some call it competitive, some call it a liability.

Would be curious to see what you were calling it after his second suspension.

 

[Mess]

View attachment 602170

1 EVG, 3 EVP.

Robertson-Nylander-marner
Tavares-Matthews-Malgin

Matthews has an assist in OT when he set up Robertson that was a 3v3 goal
&
Matthews has an assist on an empty net goal with the other teams goalie out for the opposition

Those are included in EV points but not 5v5 normal play points,

Matthews only has that one tipped goal that is recorded 5v5 even strength normal play.

 

[ULF_55]

Matthews has an assist in OT when he set up Robertson that was a 3v3 goal
&
Matthews has an assist on an empty net goal with the other teams goalie out for the opposition

Those are included in EV points but not 5v5 normal play points,

Matthews only has that one tipped goal that is recorded 5v5 even strength normal play.

Yeah, Leafs record with or without Matthews to start the season over the past few years?

 

[centipede2233]

Matthews was 100% overpaid at the time of his signing

He's lived up/outperformed the deal in 2 years and was unable to live up to the deal in 2019-2020

So far having a slow start this year but should be around 100 pts by year end and top 3 in rocket so likely lives up to it

We should have gotten 8 full years at 11.634

He had basically no accomplishments when be signed the deal both team and personal outside the Calder.

His individual production wasn't ever top 10 in pts or ppg on his ELC

If we wanted to pay him what he'd be worth in his prime 11.634 was fine but we shouldn't have given up 3 years of cost control at that

Should have been 8 year term

Yeah, the caphit was ok if the term was 8 yrs. Because what that does, is it gives you time for the cap to raise so in years 6-8 is where you increase the ROI on that contract. Ex. Crosby and ovie. Take a look at there post ELC contracts when signed and they’re teams success. Both Pittsburgh and Washington were disappointments year after year when the pens won in 2009. The reason why the pens went to back to back finals in 2008 and 2009 was because malkin was still on his ELC in 2009. Once malkin got the big money in 2010, his and Crosby caphits were no longer a positive ROI relative to the cap. They needed several years of the cap to increase until they’re caphits were much more of a positive effect with an increased cap

 

[HockeyVirus]

Sad when you have to look at other teams to prop up the Leafs

I'm not propping up the Leafs I am highlighting how ridiculous people are around here. Panthers have basically the same track record as us in the playoffs, but people use "we haven't won a series" as some sort of trump card to say we are different than other teams. Yet other teams are losing to bottom feeders, having terrible defense, etc.

Yes their fans are also freaking out, but the thing is it is 10 games into the season. No one is calling for their organizations to be blown up outside of loud minority of fans. Our media has been given the signal it is safe to shit on the Leafs again and it seems our posters here are eating it up and asking for more helpings.

It's honestly ridiculous and embarrassing. I'm not happy with how they played so far but I also know that it was October.

 

[thewave]

You don't think the players failed us? Interesting POV. IMHO they failed us in game 7 for four years in a row.

First the 3rd period against Boston, we got humiliated 4-0 in that period that's where is all started. Then we didn't show up in the deciding game for the next 3 years getting outscored 11-2 in those 3 games so that's 4 consecutive years of playing some of our worst hockey of the season when it mattered the most. When a team plays pretty well for 82 games, then plays again pretty well in the playoffs and then just disappears in game 7, you seriously don't think that's on the players?

Just to recap, we got outscored 4-0 in the 3rd against Boston, then 11-2 in the next 3 series deciding games for a total of 15-2 in the 4 most important games of that 4 year span. And your POV is that you could say to the players that no worries guys, getting outscored 15-2 in these 10 period of hockey doesn't mean you failed. Don't worry guys, you are all awesome, this is all the fault of your four eyed GM? Seriously?

The staff has not provided a solid D core or tandem in net yet. That's not the players fault. They traded grit away for junk. They sold the future for success now. They weren't even close, it was gross level incompetence.

Go read my posts all the way back to when Dubas was hired and the buyout of Marleau. You'll be in for a good time seeing how so many things that I and others like me got right. Even down to the economic downturn being expected and a stalled cap.

Management are incompetent riverboat gamblers drunk with money and don't know how to build a winning team.

 

[FerrisRox]

Ok pretend our star players took less like Tampa's, where are you finding Norris and Vezina candidates to pay that extra money?

The Flames signed Jacob Markstrom in 2020 as a free agent. He just finished second in Vezina voting this past year. Two years ago Marc-Andre Fleury, the reigning Vezina Trophy winner, was available to any team that had the cap room to take him.

Alex Pietrangelo, who has been in the mix for the Norris for several years, was a free agent available to teams with cap space back in 2020. Brent Burns, who won the Norris in 2017 and was the runner up in 2019 was available this past off-season to a team with room in their budget. Carolina, because of their excellent cap management was able to add Burns and Max Paccioretty for very little to augment their core.

If the Maple Leafs had financial freedom, there were all sorts of ways to built a balanced roster with real depth and some pushback, to pretend otherwise is just silly.

 

[Leafs87]

I have a hard time believing this information would be leaked outside the organization and into the press… If a meeting like this were to happen where they put a plan of action in place I’d imagine ownership was pretty select with who they let into the room. Just my two cents but I believe this is educated speculation which we all have been doing as well and not fact

 

[egd27]

Wow can you believe the Panthers lost to the Coyotes? Their core should be blown up TBH. At least that would be my response if not for their *checks notes* 1 playoff series win in 25 years which somehow means there is hope for them

So now you've switched from the Blues to the Panthers after you were shown what's happening on the Blue's board yesterday?

I suggest if you want to discuss the pros and cons of other teams, head on over to their boards. Here we are talking about the Leafs and your "whataboutism" is a childish argument.

 

[HockeyVirus]

So now you've switched from the Blues to the Panthers after you were shown what's happening on the Blue's board yesterday?

I suggest if you want to discuss the pros and cons of other teams, head on over to their boards. Here we are talking about the Leafs and your "whataboutism" is a childish argument.

Try and keep up. I am saying if you step outside of our bubble, the Leafs are not the only good team having a rough start. And when I said that, people tried to deflect with their whataboutism. "Oh It's Tampa / Avs they don't count". Ok, so what about the Blues? They don't count either. Panthers who basically have the same playoff record as us over the last 2 decades? Also doesn't matter.

If you are a bandwagon fan I forgive you. If you are a long time fan of the sport, it's embarrassing to see you freaking out over such a small sample size. Do I need to show how many wacky things have happened 10 games in and how the season ended to prove that point or is that whataboutism too?

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Simmonds............

/thread

This is the most Stockholm Syndrome-like post I've seen today.

It's ok to not like Simmons. He is cynical and very critical. But to dismiss him completely?

I'd love to see your counter arguments.

Maybe you want to see nothing change, and that deep down you want to see TOR compete with this team.

I do want to be straight with you though. This team will change in the near future. It's certain. It's inevitable:

Most coaches last 2 seasons with a team. It's rare to see a head coach get to 5 years. If they do get to 5 it's because they've won a cup.

Nylander/Matthews 2 seasons until UFA. Marner/Tavares 3 seasons until UFA. How do you know most of them won't test the free agent market?

Shanahan has been around for 8 years. Is he going to be around for 10 ? Not the way this team is going.

Dubas doesn't even have a contract for next season.

Out the door next season: Holl, Kerfoot, Kampf, Simmonds, ZAR, NAK, Bunting, and Engvall. Can you see them returning?

I have no idea how long Giordano has. He'll be a UFA in 2 years, but he might not see that contract through. Next Oct. he'll be 40. We'll see. It's pretty difficult to stay competitive at 40 years of age in the NHL.

Do you want to continue to see the same flawed team, coach, manager, president continue for the foreseeable future? Aren't you sick of losing in the playoffs? Are the playoffs important to you?

 

[thewave]

The Flames signed Jacob Markstrom in 2020 as a free agent. He just finished second in Vezina voting this past year. Two years ago Marc-Andre Fleury, the reigning Vezina Trophy winner, was available to any team that had the cap room to take him.

Alex Pietrangelo, who has been in the mix for the Norris for several years, was a free agent available to teams with cap space back in 2020. Brent Burns, who won the Norris in 2017 and was the runner up in 2019 was available this past off-season to a team with room in their budget. Carolina, because of their excellent cap management was able to add Burns and Max Paccioretty for very little to augment their core.

If the Maple Leafs had financial freedom, there were all sorts of ways to built a balanced roster with real depth and some pushback, to pretend otherwise is just silly.

Toronto has incompetent TEAM builders. They don't know what they are doing and it shows. You can't go 6 years without playoff progress without being incompetent. They should have been fired years ago.

 

[egd27]

Try and keep up. I am saying if you step outside of our bubble, the Leafs are not the only good team having a rough start. And when I said that, people tried to deflect with their whataboutism. "Oh It's Tampa / Avs they don't count". Ok, so what about the Blues? They don't count either. Panthers who basically have the same playoff record as us over the last 2 decades? Also doesn't matter.

If you are a bandwagon fan I forgive you. If you are a long time fan of the sport, it's embarrassing to see you freaking out over such a small sample size. Do I need to show how many wacky things have happened 10 games in and how the season ended to prove that point or is that whataboutism too?

I don't care that other teams are having a rough start, I am a Leaf fan.

What makes you think I'm "freaking out"? I'm annoyed that this team continues to make elementary mental mistakes, and more often than not "sleep walks" through the first 10-15 minutes of games. I don't think of that as freaking out, maybe you do, I don't know.

As far as your "bandwagon" comment goes, when I started watching, Bruce Gamble was our starting goalie. I'll let you google that on your own.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The staff has not provided a solid D core or tandem in net yet. That's not the players fault. They traded grit away for junk. They sold the future for success now. They weren't even close, it was gross level incompetence.

Go read my posts all the way back to when Dubas was hired and the buyout of Marleau. You'll be in for a good time seeing how so many things that I and others like me got right. Even down to the economic downturn being expected and a stalled cap.

Management are incompetent riverboat gamblers drunk with money and don't know how to build a winning team.

The players for 4 years in a row played not just like a winning team, but like cup contenders for the entire season plus 6 playoff games. Then when it mattered most, in the 4 most important games in that 4 year span they stopped playing like contenders and got outscored 19-2.

If you're having trouble understanding why some people might want to hold the players accountable for these embarrassing collapses then you might want to think about it a bit more. Or not, up to you.

I don't care that other teams are having a rough start, I am a Leaf fan.

What makes you think I'm "freaking out"? I'm annoyed that this team continues to make elementary mental mistakes, and more often than not "sleep walks" through the first 10-15 minutes of games. I don't think of that as freaking out, maybe you do, I don't know.

As far as your "bandwagon" comment goes, when I started watching, Bruce Gamble was our starting goalie. I'll let you google that on your own.

IIRC he was the goalie when I started watching as well. He was fun to watch! Not the best goalie ever but yeah, fun to watch. The name Gamble suited him.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'm not propping up the Leafs I am highlighting how ridiculous people are around here. Panthers have basically the same track record as us in the playoffs, but people use "we haven't won a series" as some sort of trump card to say we are different than other teams. Yet other teams are losing to bottom feeders, having terrible defense, etc.

Yes their fans are also freaking out, but the thing is it is 10 games into the season. No one is calling for their organizations to be blown up outside of loud minority of fans. Our media has been given the signal it is safe to shit on the Leafs again and it seems our posters here are eating it up and asking for more helpings.

It's honestly ridiculous and embarrassing. I'm not happy with how they played so far but I also know that it was October.

Who cares about the Panthers?
Fans have a right to be frustrated/angry/upset with this rookie GM who keeps rolling it back only to lose in the first round every year.

They said it best here: Why the questions about this Maple Leafs team run deeper than a slow start

Any reference to it only being 10 games in any capacity – be it in a discussion about the coach keeping his job, the struggles of the team, the performance of the management group, or whatever else – is simply tone-deaf at this point.

Entering the season, I wrote the following:

“Part of this is me also wondering if the team starts to feel a little stale. At its core, it’s been the same group for five seasons now, and they haven’t won anything.”

Whenever this team accomplishes anything positive, there is always an air of, “But what will happen when the playoffs?” Whenever the team drops the ball, there is a clear message, “Just like in the playoffs every year!”

It is hard to escape this cloud over the Leafs, but this is what happens when management continues to run it back. These conversations will persist even when they put together their first winning streak — and they will go on a winning streak at some point.

Personally, I think this cloud over the team is contributing to their struggles, but whatever and whomever you choose to blame, there are legitimate concerns here.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't care that other teams are having a rough start, I am a Leaf fan.

What makes you think I'm "freaking out"? I'm annoyed that this team continues to make elementary mental mistakes, and more often than not "sleep walks" through the first 10-15 minutes of games. I don't think of that as freaking out, maybe you do, I don't know.

As far as your "bandwagon" comment goes, when I started watching, Bruce Gamble was our starting goalie. I'll let you google that on your own.

Amen to that.
Never understood that it's ok that the Leafs are playing poorly because other teams are.

 

[centipede2233]

One thing I'll never understand about Shanahan is how he became so soft. He was a mean power forward back in his day. After playing that role back in the day how is he not aware that physicality plays a difference in winning and losing. One of the better power forwards of all time is blowing his cup window because he allowed the team to be neutered from a physical perspective because spread sheets told him they don't need to be physical to win. That's really disappointing.

I don’t know what shanahan does on a day to day basis. But the impression I get is he has given very little guidance to a rookie GM that needed it and let dubas do whatever he wanted, while shanahan was likely surfing youtube and playing online games collecting 7 figure cheques at the same time.

 

[stealth1]

Try and keep up. I am saying if you step outside of our bubble, the Leafs are not the only good team having a rough start. And when I said that, people tried to deflect with their whataboutism. "Oh It's Tampa / Avs they don't count". Ok, so what about the Blues? They don't count either. Panthers who basically have the same playoff record as us over the last 2 decades? Also doesn't matter.

If you are a bandwagon fan I forgive you. If you are a long time fan of the sport, it's embarrassing to see you freaking out over such a small sample size. Do I need to show how many wacky things have happened 10 games in and how the season ended to prove that point or is that whataboutism too?

There is a possibility that those top teams aren't as good as last season.

 

[sparxx87]

The players for 4 years in a row played not just like a winning team, but like cup contenders for the entire season plus 6 playoff games. Then when it mattered most, in the 4 most important games in that 4 year span they stopped playing like contenders and got outscored 19-2.

If you're having trouble understanding why some people might want to hold the players accountable for these embarrassing collapses then you might want to think about it a bit more. Or not, up to you.


IIRC he was the goalie when I started watching as well. He was fun to watch! Not the best goalie ever but yeah, fun to watch. The name Gamble suited him.

What about for people who've objectively never seen a cup contender? Always identify that many of their avenues for success become much thinner in the playoffs, and they don't have the quality depth or versatility to win any other way?

"but, but, they almost beat Tampa" This is correct - but, missing context. You and many others talk about the players performance, which is important.. but what about the other team?
1. Has Vasilevsky ever played a worse series in his career?
2. Was Kucherov even playing? (injured, equivalent to ghost although on the GS)
3. Stamkos - literally had to double check he was playing, he did virtually nothing.
4. Hedman - Hard to recall ever see him make so many mistakes, especially in the first 3 games. Not sure if he was hurt as well, but he wasn't the Norris and Conn Smythe winner we'd come to know for much of the series (part of this was why Vasi struggled up until game 7)


Bolts have depth players like Killiorn, Cirelli, Palat in their secondary core that stepped up - the Leafs can't afford a secondary core. Quality depth and versatility on the blueline, something the Leafs also can't afford.

Tampa left the door wide open and they STILL couldn't win.



You say you haven't watched, didn't read article etc. You're admitting your willful ignorance while telling others how they should interpret things you didn't see or read? Just so we're clear.

 

[ToneDog]

I don’t know what shanahan does on a day to day basis. But the impression I get is he has given very little guidance to a rookie GM that needed it and let dubas do whatever he wanted, while shanahan was likely surfing youtube and playing online games collecting 7 figure cheques at the same time.

Every day is Oct. 31st for Dubas and Shanny. One is a ghost and the other is a clown.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Try and keep up. I am saying if you step outside of our bubble, the Leafs are not the only good team having a rough start. And when I said that, people tried to deflect with their whataboutism. "Oh It's Tampa / Avs they don't count". Ok, so what about the Blues? They don't count either. Panthers who basically have the same playoff record as us over the last 2 decades? Also doesn't matter.

If you are a bandwagon fan I forgive you. If you are a long time fan of the sport, it's embarrassing to see you freaking out over such a small sample size. Do I need to show how many wacky things have happened 10 games in and how the season ended to prove that point or is that whataboutism too?

It's not a small sample though. 5 games is small. 10 isn't small. 12% of the season is something. Most teams evaluate what they have at American Thanksgiving. They have 11 games essentially to show their true selves. Is that a proper sample size? That would be 25%. I don't know. I think this team has to give a lot more, but their defense alone presents a massive challenge. Then there's soft forward group, poor bottom 6, coaching, aging & injured key players, questionable goaltending (although I like what Samsonov is doing), and a possession hockey system in which the league's worst teams have an easy time defending. The way Toronto is trending at the moment their season might be determined before Christmas.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

Nice post! It's so easy to dump on Dubas as almost everyone seems to be doing but most of these dumps smell like well, dumps. And I'm soo sick about people whining about Tavares, the guys one of the few who is playing well this season, hard to imagine where we might be without him at this point.

Having said that, it's so hard to figure out what is wrong with this team but something seems to be very wrong indeed. Simmons isn't always wrong and I think in this case he's probably right. I didn't read the article but at least the part quoted in the OP has the ring of truth to it. The owners are probably used to writing off the season after the 1st playoff round but writing off a season in November, I doubt they'll sit quietly and watch that happen.

I say changes are coming soon, big changes. Hopefully that big change is the way the current group plays on the ice but at this point, it's really hard to see that happening.

I think people whining about Tavares is not about his play, he IS the Captain of this team, given the responsibility to be the one the coach leans on, I dont know what happens in the room but not seeing the captain holding people accountable on the ice or in the light. Maybe he needs to be more vocal, more assertive and lead this still young group of elite players. I don't blame one person, it's a collective failure from management down to the players. I'd like to see some emotion, Marner getting mad is what i want to see, start to hold each other accountable. But as i see it now, boy it's a hole they really need to climb out of, maybe a few wins to take the heat off, but i'm concerned that this group is not emotionally mature to take a run at the cup. We will see

 

[ToneDog]

It's not a small sample though. 5 games is small. 10 isn't small. 12% of the season is something. Most teams evaluate what they have at American Thanksgiving. They have 11 games essentially to show their true selves. Is that a proper sample size? That would be 25%. I don't know. I think this team has to give a lot more, but their defense alone presents a massive challenge. Then there's soft forward group, poor bottom 6, coaching, aging & injured key players, questionable goaltending (although I like what Samsonov is doing), and a possession hockey system in which the league's worst teams have an easy time defending. The way Toronto is trending at the moment their season might be determined before Christmas.

I watched parts of the Rangers/Flyers, Oilers/Preds and Devils/Canucks games last night and I see those teams skating, finishing their checks and playing with emotion. Exciting hockey. I watch the Leafs and they are slow, boring and make me dizzy and put me to sleep with their perimeter play and their useless/nothing bottom 6.

P.S. Luke Schenn has become a fricken beast. Look for NJ to pass us by soon.