The Sun: Maple Leafs on trial; heads may roll. Just about everything in question.

[notdoneyet]

Matthews will coast this year and turn it on next year for those big U.S. $$$$$. If ever there was a guy that looked like he didn't want to be here it's him. Sure, Toronto is hockey's Mecca but, not to him. T.O. means nothing to him. In fact, now that he is being pissed on by the fans only makes him less interested.

Marner has to go. He was instrumental in helping get rid of Babcock and it seems pretty obvious that Keefe will be moving on. You cannot have the hens rule the roost. He was become as great a liability as Kadri who I certainly like a lot more.

How was marner instrumental in getting rid of babcock. Posters on here just spout shit
With no actual brain process.

You mean its mitch fault that babcock asked an 19 year old kid who the 5 worst pkayers on the team was and he included himself and 4 others and then coach babcock announced it to the room. In your reasoning that is marners fault. Lol

The whole team was fed up with babcock had nothing to do with mitch but hey dont let facts get in the way if your agenda.

 

[notdoneyet]

For those that are allergic to the prospects threads.

Ty Voit leading the OHL in scoring with 24 pts in 12 games on a team with no notable players.

Minten has 10 pts in his first 5 games in the WHL.

Moldenhauer leading the USHL in scoring and just committed to a big program in U. Michigan.

Knies continuing to be around ppg in the NCAA even though Cooley is still being a puck hog and not using his linemates.

Steeves has 7 pts in 7 games with the Marlies.

Petruzzelli has a .925 sv% in 4 games with the Marlies

Scares me to think we can lose some of these guys if dubas decided to trade some to try to save his job

 

[Gary Nylund]

What about for people who've objectively never seen a cup contender? Always identify that many of their avenues for success become much thinner in the playoffs, and they don't have the quality depth or versatility to win any other way?

"but, but, they almost beat Tampa" This is correct - but, missing context. You and many others talk about the players performance, which is important.. but what about the other team?
1. Has Vasilevsky ever played a worse series in his career?
2. Was Kucherov even playing? (injured, equivalent to ghost although on the GS)
3. Stamkos - literally had to double check he was playing, he did virtually nothing.
4. Hedman - Hard to recall ever see him make so many mistakes, especially in the first 3 games. Not sure if he was hurt as well, but he wasn't the Norris and Conn Smythe winner we'd come to know for much of the series (part of this was why Vasi struggled up until game 7)


Bolts have depth players like Killiorn, Cirelli, Palat in their secondary core that stepped up - the Leafs can't afford a secondary core. Quality depth and versatility on the blueline, something the Leafs also can't afford.

Tampa left the door wide open and they STILL couldn't win.



You say you haven't watched, didn't read article etc. You're admitting your willful ignorance while telling others how they should interpret things you didn't see or read? Just so we're clear.

I have no idea what you're on about with this post. I'm saying the players deserve to be held accountable, you respond with all this stuff about TB and it's not clear to me what point you're trying to make?

Either you think the players should be held accountable for 4 consecutive collapses or you don't. If you do then we agree and if you don't then feel free to explain why that is. Just to be clear.

I think people whining about Tavares is not about his play, he IS the Captain of this team, given the responsibility to be the one the coach leans on, I dont know what happens in the room but not seeing the captain holding people accountable on the ice or in the light. Maybe he needs to be more vocal, more assertive and lead this still young group of elite players. I don't blame one person, it's a collective failure from management down to the players. I'd like to see some emotion, Marner getting mad is what i want to see, start to hold each other accountable. But as i see it now, boy it's a hole they really need to climb out of, maybe a few wins to take the heat off, but i'm concerned that this group is not emotionally mature to take a run at the cup. We will see

I share your concerns. Tavares has never been the rah rah type of guy, if that's a problem then he was a poor choice for captain. I don't think that's an issue myself though, leaders lead no matter if they wear a letter or not.

But yeah, I share your concerns. I haven't been this concerned since this core made the playoffs for the first time. Would be nice to see some signs of life tonight, we'll see.

 

[justashadowof]

Some call it competitive, some call it a liability.

Would be curious to see what you were calling it after his second suspension.

I thought DeBrusk shamelessly faked the severity of the incident by lying prostrate on the ice until the penalty was handed out then popped up and didn't miss a shift. Indeed Kadri got goaded into the incident because he stood nearly alone as a Leaf with any pushback in defense of his teammates. It turned out that his inherent commitment to his team was a better match with a team that is actually willing to pay the price to win.

 

[notbias]

I thought DeBrusk shamelessly faked the severity of the incident by lying prostrate on the ice until the penalty was handed out then popped up and didn't miss a shift. Indeed Kadri got goaded into the incident because he stood nearly alone as a Leaf with any pushback in defense of his teammates. It turned out that his inherent commitment to his team was a better match with a team that is actually willing to pay the price to win.

Weird take, but whatever you need to think to justify it

 

[ULF_55]

I thought DeBrusk shamelessly faked the severity of the incident by lying prostrate on the ice until the penalty was handed out then popped up and didn't miss a shift. Indeed Kadri got goaded into the incident because he stood nearly alone as a Leaf with any pushback in defense of his teammates. It turned out that his inherent commitment to his team was a better match with a team that is actually willing to pay the price to win.

Did the referee suspend him?

Kadri's history played into the suspension, but I think they pardoned him after his Avs suspension.

 

[keonsbitterness]

As far as your "bandwagon" comment goes, when I started watching, Bruce Gamble was our starting goalie. I'll let you google that on your own.

Gamble had world-class sideburns.

 

[Racer88]

Have we checked out the prospects?
Some really positive reviews coming in.
Might be too late for Dubas and Keefe.
Won't be too late for the fans though.

Just for context what prospects would that be and who is saying these positive things

 

[sparxx87]

I have no idea what you're on about with this post. I'm saying the players deserve to be held accountable, you respond with all this stuff about TB and it's not clear to me what point you're trying to make?

Either you think the players should be held accountable for 4 consecutive collapses or you don't. If you do then we agree and if you don't then feel free to explain why that is. Just to be clear.

It's all right here for you. I used Tampa in reference to another post you made alluding to the Leafs almost beating them. 7 game series, could have gone either way. I agree. I didn't quote this previous post because I've always believed you to be honest and debate in good faith so I didn't feel the need to waste time or space.

My point is that Tampa wasn't at their best. Their best players, aside from Point, weren't really their best players.. But because they have so much quality depth, they were able to overcome a rough series for 4 of their top 5 players. Great teams find a way to win. Despite the adversity, they found a way to get it done. You've also mentioned the Leafs record and scoring differential in the highest stakes games. Who came through for Tampa in game 7? TDL acquisition Nick Paul - a guy who 50/50 pucks don't exist for. Quality depth player that wins minutes in other ways than just score. Because he makes winning plays all over the ice, you expect it to be a guy like him that can break one off when the margins are thin.

Tampa and other top teams are loaded with intagibles that don't show up in the box scores.. The Leafs are so incredibly void of them.. Thats why some of us have been able to completely disregard all the stats and regular season awards and confidently say aren't going to win 4 playoff rounds with this structure. On top of that, this cupcake culture they've built. Theres just so much dysfunction, its hard to comprehend.

Yes, everyone in the organization shares blame for this mess.. but Matthews and Marner can only do so much. They're going to go through tough stretches, they're going to run into less than favorable matchups in some playoff series'... If this happens, the Leafs are relying on Tavares and Nylander + a bunch of mostly bargain bin bottom 6 players to outproduce and out perform some of the top contenders with far greater depth of quality. And I haven't even got to the defense. They're soft and mistake prone, lack versatility and intangibles. This is a common theme up and down the roster.

This is not a winning strategy, and it never has been.

 

[Trapper]

Wow can you believe the Panthers lost to the Coyotes? Their core should be blown up TBH. At least that would be my response if not for their *checks notes* 1 playoff series win in 25 years which somehow means there is hope for them

They did change their core this summer.
As you said, they didn’t go anywhere with it.
Why do the same thing over and keep expecting a different result right?

 

[ToneDog]

They did change their core this summer.
As you said, they didn’t go anywhere with it.
Why do the same thing over and keep expecting a different result right?

Traded a soft, skilled forward for grit and they overpaid even though they had some leverage.

Apparently, our Pres who was one of the grittiest players would rather see lots of skill rather than a player hitting another player. My oh my how has this guy has been brainwashed. Seriously embarassing. No idea how the big wigs keep this guy after reading that article somebody posted last week.

 

[ULF_55]

Just for context what prospects would that be and who is saying these positive things

Their on ice performance, and at least 1 player of the week award.
Can get some updates in the thread...

Prospect Info: - Marlies/Prospects Thread - 2023-23 Season Edition

SDA/abramov didn't get that 4th line treatment the whole season though, because we lost brooks and amadio on waivers who would have been top 6 centres, and semyonov left after like a month, so the two rookies were forced into the deep end, playing top 6 minutes before they were ready. there was...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's all right here for you. I used Tampa in reference to another post you made alluding to the Leafs almost beating them. 7 game series, could have gone either way. I agree. I didn't quote this previous post because I've always believed you to be honest and debate in good faith so I didn't feel the need to waste time or space.

My point is that Tampa wasn't at their best. Their best players, aside from Point, weren't really their best players.. But because they have so much quality depth, they were able to overcome a rough series for 4 of their top 5 players. Great teams find a way to win. Despite the adversity, they found a way to get it done. You've also mentioned the Leafs record and scoring differential in the highest stakes games. Who came through for Tampa in game 7? TDL acquisition Nick Paul - a guy who 50/50 pucks don't exist for. Quality depth player that wins minutes in other ways than just score. Because he makes winning plays all over the ice, you expect it to be a guy like him that can break one off when the margins are thin.

Tampa and other top teams are loaded with intagibles that don't show up in the box scores.. The Leafs are so incredibly void of them.. Thats why some of us have been able to completely disregard all the stats and regular season awards and confidently say aren't going to win 4 playoff rounds with this structure. On top of that, this cupcake culture they've built. Theres just so much dysfunction, its hard to comprehend.

Yes, everyone in the organization shares blame for this mess.. but Matthews and Marner can only do so much. They're going to go through tough stretches, they're going to run into less than favorable matchups in some playoff series'... If this happens, the Leafs are relying on Tavares and Nylander + a bunch of mostly bargain bin bottom 6 players to outproduce and out perform some of the top contenders with far greater depth of quality. And I haven't even got to the defense. They're soft and mistake prone, lack versatility and intangibles. This is a common theme up and down the roster.

This is not a winning strategy, and it never has been.

It looks like you got lost somewhere so let's recap. I was responding to another poster when I said this:

The players for 4 years in a row played not just like a winning team, but like cup contenders for the entire season plus 6 playoff games. Then when it mattered most, in the 4 most important games in that 4 year span they stopped playing like contenders and got outscored 19-2.

If you're having trouble understanding why some people might want to hold the players accountable for these embarrassing collapses then you might want to think about it a bit more. Or not, up to you.

You responded with a lengthy post going on and on about TB this, TB that and so on. This had nothing to do with my post so I responded with this:

I have no idea what you're on about with this post. I'm saying the players deserve to be held accountable, you respond with all this stuff about TB and it's not clear to me what point you're trying to make?

Either you think the players should be held accountable for 4 consecutive collapses or you don't. If you do then we agree and if you don't then feel free to explain why that is. Just to be clear.

And you respond with another lengthy post that's once again, mostly about TB saying it's in reference to another post I made. Seriously?

If you're going to comment on some other post I made, why not go and quote that post instead instead of butting into a conversation I'm having with a different poster about a different subject without making it clear what the hell you're talking about?

 

[sparxx87]

It looks like you got lost somewhere so let's recap. I was responding to another poster when I said this:

The players for 4 years in a row played not just like a winning team, but like cup contenders for the entire season plus 6 playoff games. Then when it mattered most, in the 4 most important games in that 4 year span they stopped playing like contenders and got outscored 19-2.

If you're having trouble understanding why some people might want to hold the players accountable for these embarrassing collapses then you might want to think about it a bit more. Or not, up to you.

You responded with a lengthy post going on and on about TB this, TB that and so on. This had nothing to do with my post so I responded with this:

I have no idea what you're on about with this post. I'm saying the players deserve to be held accountable, you respond with all this stuff about TB and it's not clear to me what point you're trying to make?

Either you think the players should be held accountable for 4 consecutive collapses or you don't. If you do then we agree and if you don't then feel free to explain why that is. Just to be clear.

And you respond with another lengthy post that's once again, mostly about TB saying it's in reference to another post I made. Seriously?

If you're going to comment on some other post I made, why not go and quote that post instead instead of butting into a conversation I'm having with a different poster about a different subject without making it clear what the hell you're talking about?

Because, as I said, I assumed you were interested in a good faith, honest debate. My mistake.

Now you're pretending I'm confused when I've literally engaged with you on countless occasions during the Dubas era, trying to explain the same fundamental problems that have existed all along in spite of what stats or numbers have been telling you.

You don't want to hear it? That's fine. That's called cognitive dissonance and you're far from the only one doing it.

I quoted a post where you alluded to a problem you couldn't put your finger on. I like you, so I tried to help. Again, my mistake. Won't happen again.

 

[myleafs]

I watched parts of the Rangers/Flyers, Oilers/Preds and Devils/Canucks games last night and I see those teams skating, finishing their checks and playing with emotion. Exciting hockey. I watch the Leafs and they are slow, boring and make me dizzy and put me to sleep with their perimeter play and their useless/nothing bottom 6.

P.S. Luke Schenn has become a fricken beast. Look for NJ to pass us by soon.

Its funny you say this as I mentioned to my buddy this morning the exact same thing...I mean exactly the same thing.

 

[myleafs]

I have no idea what you're on about with this post. I'm saying the players deserve to be held accountable, you respond with all this stuff about TB and it's not clear to me what point you're trying to make?

Either you think the players should be held accountable for 4 consecutive collapses or you don't. If you do then we agree and if you don't then feel free to explain why that is. Just to be clear.


I share your concerns. Tavares has never been the rah rah type of guy, if that's a problem then he was a poor choice for captain. I don't think that's an issue myself though, leaders lead no matter if they wear a letter or not.

But yeah, I share your concerns. I haven't been this concerned since this core made the playoffs for the first time. Would be nice to see some signs of life tonight, we'll see.

I felt the same when Marleau was brought in.....nice guy and all but this is the guy you want the stars to rally around? Tavares puts his hard hat on and puts in an honest effort which clearly is not rubbing off on the elite ones......but leadership wise he is a bust imo. I see none.

 

[justashadowof]

Weird take, but whatever you need to think to justify it

Now you know how to empathize with our reactions to your biased defenses of our very failed wunderkind.

 

[mapleleaf979]

For those that are allergic to the prospects threads.

Ty Voit leading the OHL in scoring with 24 pts in 12 games on a team with no notable players.

Minten has 10 pts in his first 5 games in the WHL.

Moldenhauer leading the USHL in scoring and just committed to a big program in U. Michigan.

Knies continuing to be around ppg in the NCAA even though Cooley is still being a puck hog and not using his linemates.

Steeves has 7 pts in 7 games with the Marlies.

Petruzzelli has a .925 sv% in 4 games with the Marlies

Not 1 defenseman in that group. Leafs d-core is full of bottom pairing dmen, this displays further Dubas as the worst GM in the NHL.

 

[notbias]

Not 1 defenseman in that group. Leafs d-core is full of bottom pairing dmen, this displays further Dubas as the worst GM in the NHL.

Only Niemela has top pairing potential, but Villeneuve, Kral, and Kokkenen could be good responsible #3/4.

Also, that is what happens when your two best D prospects graduate.

LW is definitely our strength right now, but D is not terrible.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Amen to that.
Never understood that it's ok that the Leafs are playing poorly because other teams are.

It's the "look, a squirrel" reality deflection strategy. It's what paid PR people and politicians (but I repeat myself) do.

Just sayin'...

 

[Gary Nylund]

Because, as I said, I assumed you were interested in a good faith, honest debate. My mistake.

Now you're pretending I'm confused when I've literally engaged with you on countless occasions during the Dubas era, trying to explain the same fundamental problems that have existed all along in spite of what stats or numbers have been telling you.

You don't want to hear it? That's fine. That's called cognitive dissonance and you're far from the only one doing it.

I quoted a post where you alluded to a problem you couldn't put your finger on. I like you, so I tried to help. Again, my mistake. Won't happen again.

OK so you got your panties all bunched about because of something I said in the past in some other thread, so now you're following me around and butting into other discussions I'm having so you can continue ranting. That's kind of sad dude, why not stick to thread where I said whatever it is that's got you so upset, did you get thread banned or something?

Anyhow, hope you enjoy the game tonight. I have a feeling it's going to be a good one. Not that my "feeling" means anything but I have that feeling nevertheless.

I felt the same when Marleau was brought in.....nice guy and all but this is the guy you want the stars to rally around? Tavares puts his hard hat on and puts in an honest effort which clearly is not rubbing off on the elite ones......but leadership wise he is a bust imo. I see none.

Interesting. I was pissed when they signed Marleau (that 3rd year was a really bad idea) but thrilled when they signed JT. We don't know what goes on off the ice so hard to say about leadership, he's not a rah rah type of guy though for sure. He's a gud pro on the ice though, maybe some of that will rub off some day though it's hard to be too optimistic in that regard if it hasn't happened by now. Oh well, at least all our stars played very well in the playoffs for a change against TB so that's something I guess.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Because, as I said, I assumed you were interested in a good faith, honest debate. My mistake.

Now you're pretending I'm confused when I've literally engaged with you on countless occasions during the Dubas era, trying to explain the same fundamental problems that have existed all along in spite of what stats or numbers have been telling you.

You don't want to hear it? That's fine. That's called cognitive dissonance and you're far from the only one doing it.

I quoted a post where you alluded to a problem you couldn't put your finger on. I like you, so I tried to help. Again, my mistake. Won't happen again.

Gary used to be one of the best posters here. I don't know what happened to him. He's clearly lost his way.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Not 1 defenseman in that group. Leafs d-core is full of bottom pairing dmen, this displays further Dubas as the worst GM in the NHL.

Those are the guys that are having the most noteworthy seasons so far. We have a bunch of other prospects that have already been progressing very well since being drafted. Like Holmberg, Hirvonen etc.

Since Sandin and Lilly have graduated, the blue line has become thinner for prospects but Niemela looks like a guy that could potentially be a #3. Villeneuve and Kral could be a solid 2 way 4/5/6 and both are 6'2. Kokkonen and Koster are longer shots but still have decent potential to be bottom pair guys.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

Not a fan of Simmons but I do love how he winds up the woke crowd.

 

[geo25]

One thing I'll never understand about Shanahan is how he became so soft. He was a mean power forward back in his day. After playing that role back in the day how is he not aware that physicality plays a difference in winning and losing. One of the better power forwards of all time is blowing his cup window because he allowed the team to be neutered from a physical perspective because spread sheets told him they don't need to be physical to win. That's really disappointing.

Brown nosed, bootlicker Shanahan (supposedly well known among plyers as a me first type player & guy) is known as a survivor. IMHO he has left everything in Kyle's trusted hands & has not gotten personally/activelty involved (hard to do from NYC). I think he hired Dubas because he posed no threat to his future. I lost all respect for him & wish we never hired him. Spineless & non accountable.....WHERE'S THE PRIDE?