Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

[Just A Bit Outside]

“Canucks proudly trade their 2023 1st for 18yr old Sam Bennett”

“We feel Sam is a great addition to our core with his best years ahead of him”

 

[Nucker101]

As I pointed out on another threat, if Cap Friendly is correct, the Canucks have one pick in the first 70 players of the 2023 draft; and one pick in the top 70 or so players of the 2024 draft.

It takes special talent for a perpetual lottery team to have just two picks in the top 140 players in the next two drafts.

I mean, how does that happen?

If anything it shows that they’re ahead of the curve. Real players > magic beans

Just needs to move both firsts and we’re up there with the big bois like Tampa in the elite tier.

 

[rea]

Rutherford: Canucks are not in the right 'cycle' to trade high draft picks

Jim Rutherford traded away six first-round picks in seven years with the Pittsburgh Penguins.

www.vancouverisawesome.com

I'm just going to leave this here to remind people what rutherford said, and also his history of trading firsts. I guess it shoulda been expected. And before *someone* throws out he won a cup w Pitts, I'd like to remind them that the canucks don't have Crosby Malkin Letang and MAF in their primes, so let's not be crazy here and start comparing ep hughes and demko to that, because they are not on that level. Will they be? Maybe, but they aren't now and that's even more reason doing these trades isn't the right timeline

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Rutherford: Canucks are not in the right 'cycle' to trade high draft picks

Jim Rutherford traded away six first-round picks in seven years with the Pittsburgh Penguins.

www.vancouverisawesome.com

I'm just going to leave this here to remind people what rutherford said, and also his history of trading firsts. I guess it shoulda been expected. And before *someone* throws out he won a cup w Pitts, I'd like to remind them that the canucks don't have Crosby Malkin Letang and MAF in their primes, so let's not be crazy here and start comparing ep hughes and demko to that, because they are not on that level. Will they be? Maybe, but they aren't now and that's even more reason doing these trades isn't the right timeline

Oh it’s clear they are full of shit.

Say one thing, do another.

President was hired and then hired a f***ing crap scout to be GM.

Where have we heard that before?

 

[Hit the post]

Oh it’s clear they are full of shit.

Say one thing, do another.

President was hired and then hired a f***ing crap scout to be GM.

Where have we heard that before?

But Gillis!

 

[4th line culture]

Yeah I mean I guess we could have all accurately predicted ECHL level goaltending for the entire year.

I think a lot of people accurately predicted that this wasnt a playoff team

 

[rea]

Demko only wanted out if we were going to rebuild, I think the same goes for Pettersson and Hughes. Management has a plan with and without JT, they can spin it either way. Myers will be gone. OEL will be bought out. We will be buying players pennies on the dollar in the offseason to fill out the roster.

The goal next season is the playoffs

If we are somehow finding and buying players pennies on the dollar, then why are we paying premiums now? PLEASE, I need you to givemeda411 sorry I couldn't help it. And buying out oel how much does that add to our negative line? I need these answers nao nao nao

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Benning is probably pretty pleased seeing management double down on this core. He’s probably sitting at home on his fat ass, drooling on himself with mustard stains on his shirt, telling his family “see, I build good core.” Just lol

 

[4th line culture]

Benning is probably pretty pleased seeing management double down on this core. He’s probably sitting at home on his fat ass, drooling on himself with mustard stains on his shirt, telling his family “see, I build good core.” Just lol

@MS Thinks he built an excellent core. Right?

 

[MS]

@MS Thinks he built an excellent core. Right?

By accident, yes.

More accurately, Judd Brackett built a good core here and probably would have built an even better one without Benning overruling his picks.

 

[Diogenes92]

Travis Green was a god awful coach.

If they had Bruce from the start of the year, they would have easily been a playoff team lol.

Good to know that you're clairvoyant and know for sure that they'd have made the playoffs.

Nothing about this roster screams "easily a playoff team". They need to show that they can play well when it matters. Not during garbage time.

 

[4th line culture]

By accident, yes.

More accurately, Judd Brackett built a good core here and probably would have built an even better one without Benning overruling his picks.

I used to look up to man, but you've changed. I dont even know who you are anymore

 

[Hit the post]

Good to know that you're clairvoyant and know for sure that they'd have made the playoffs.

Nothing about this roster screams "easily a playoff team". They need to show that they can play well when it matters. Not during garbage time.

The Western Conference is weak so having a hot goalie + being able to score goals means you have a chance (perhaps not a great chance but a chance for the post-season). Problem is, that really isn't sustainable in the post-season (see the Oilers).

 

[MS]

I used to look up to man, but you've changed. I dont even know who you are anymore

How have I changed? What opinions do I have that are different than before?

I said probably 100 times during Benning's tenure here that he had accidentally assembled a good core with his accidental tank, and would actually have been a useful idiot if he'd been fired in 2017 or 2018.

 

[Quinntessential]

Say what you want about Jim Benning but his drunken kung fu style of management always gave us lots to talk about

 

[Hit the post]

Say what you want about Jim Benning but his drunken kung fu style of management always gave us lots to talk about

I'm thinking Jim Benning was more like Johnny Yune kung fu flicks rather than classic Jackie Chan.

 

[givemeda411]

If we are somehow finding and buying players pennies on the dollar, then why are we paying premiums now? PLEASE, I need you to givemeda411 sorry I couldn't help it. And buying out oel how much does that add to our negative line? I need these answers nao nao nao

Hronek was market value, look at Chychurn trade. Fans should be happy, he is Sami Salo 2.0
Buying out OEL give us (next year only) $7.1M in cap savings.
Buying out Garland gives us $4.1M in cap savings. Maybe we buyout both.


Straight Facts = Givemeda411

 

[Diogenes92]

The Western Conference is weak so having a hot goalie + being able to score goals means you have a chance (perhaps not a great chance but a chance for the post-season). Problem is, that really isn't sustainable in the post-season (see the Oilers).

This team has the worst PK and bottom of the league Defense.

People need to cool it with the playoff talk until they have at least a sniff at a wildcard spot next season.

I just don't understand how people can continue to argue that this team is great when the data is there to prove otherwise.

 

[Hit the post]

This team has the worst PK and bottom of the league Defense.

People need to cool it with the playoff talk until they have at least a sniff at a wildcard spot next season.

I just don't understand how people can continue to argue that this team is great when the data is there to prove otherwise.

Don't confuse making the playoffs as to me saying that would be the benchmark of a good team. It's a low bar to meet.

 

[Hodgy]

How have I changed? What opinions do I have that are different than before?

I said probably 100 times during Benning's tenure here that he had accidentally assembled a good core with his accidental tank, and would actually have been a useful idiot if he'd been fired in 2017 or 2018.

I have generally agreed with you throughout the years, but where I now disagree is whether or not to rebuild. And this is notwithstanding what, in reality, an ownership or management team would do or allow to be done. Because obviously Frankie is driving the bus and the mandate is to retool on the fly. But as I understand, you would still try to retool on the fly, notwithstanding whether management or ownership required this, because we have two "great" players that are 23 and 24 years old. You also seem to have acknowledged that the prospects of successfully doing so are low. Hopefully I haven't misquoted you on either of these but I seem to recall you stating both very recently.

Anyway, I am very patient. I am 37 years old. I have time. My goal is to see a perennial contender with a reasonable chance at winning the Stanley Cup. I have no interest in a rushed approach with a much lower chance of success. I don't care to cheer for a team that maybe will be a playoff team for a few years or whatever, but could become an elite team if they hit a bunch of very unlikely homeruns.

I'd much rather a scorched earth rebuild. And sure, you can get unlucky and not acquire "great" players like Hughes or Pettersson right away. And perhaps one or both of Pettersson or Hughes demands a trade. And you are right that Detroit's rebuild has been somewhat unlucky in terms of accumulating elite talent (although Seider is easily a better piece than Hughes, and Detroit has easily better depth than Vancouver, so I'm not even sure if they are far off). But the beauty is that you can just keep on rebuilding until you hit on these players. And that's what Detroit is doing. So, maybe you hit on these players over a 2-3 year stretch and come out of it relatively quickly. But from my perspective, I don't really care if it takes 5-7 years. The point is if you are patient the most likely outcome is that you will build a collection of young talent that is equal to or better than Pettersson and Hughes. And at that point, you will have tons of depth in terms of picks and prospects and few salary commitments to weigh you do. So you will then be looking at, with shrewd management, a potentially 10 plus year of perennial competing status like Tampa Bay, or even similar to the Maple Leafs. This is my goal and this is the approach I would prefer.

 

[rea]

Hronek was market value, look at Chychurn trade. Fans should be happy, he is Sami Salo 2.0
Buying out OEL give us (next year only) $7.1M in cap savings.
Buying out Garland gives us $4.1M in cap savings. Maybe we buyout both.


Straight Facts = Givemeda411

U say cap savings, what does that mean every year going forward in dead capspace. 2ndly, the chychrun trade actually shows hronek was not market value, when u compare that even if chyc isn't a rhd, he is a true #1, whereas, regardless of what allvin said, hronek is not. I will wait on you, I like actual constructive debates, which I hope this is, not one sided affairs

 

[MS]

I have generally agreed with you throughout the years, but where I now disagree is whether or not to rebuild. And this is notwithstanding what, in reality, an ownership or management team would do or allow to be done. Because obviously Frankie is driving the bus and the mandate is to retool on the fly. But as I understand, you would still try to retool on the fly, notwithstanding whether management or ownership required this, because we have two "great" players that are 23 and 24 years old. You also seem to have acknowledged that the prospects of successfully doing so are low. Hopefully I haven't misquoted you on either of these but I seem to recall you stating both very recently.

Anyway, I am very patient. I am 37 years old. I have time. My goal is to see a perennial contender with a reasonable chance at winning the Stanley Cup. I have no interest in a rushed approach with a much lower chance of success. I don't care to cheer for a team that maybe will be a playoff team for a few years or whatever, but could become an elite team if they hit a bunch of very unlikely homeruns.

I'd much rather a scorched earth rebuild. And sure, you can get unlucky and not acquire "great" players like Hughes or Pettersson right away. And perhaps one or both of Pettersson or Hughes demands a trade. And you are right that Detroit's rebuild has been somewhat unlucky in terms of accumulating elite talent (although Seider is easily a better piece than Hughes, and Detroit has easily better depth than Vancouver, so I'm not even sure if they are far off). But the beauty is that you can just keep on rebuilding until you hit on these players. And that's what Detroit is doing. So, maybe you hit on these players over a 2-3 year stretch and come out of it relatively quickly. But from my perspective, I don't really care if it takes 5-7 years. The point is if you are patient the most likely outcome is that you will build a collection of young talent that is equal to or better than Pettersson and Hughes. And at that point, you will have tons of depth in terms of picks and prospects and few salary commitments to weigh you do. So you will then be looking at, with shrewd management, a potentially 10 plus year of perennial competing status like Tampa Bay, or even similar to the Maple Leafs. This is my goal and this is the approach I would prefer.

I've always been a compete-now guy. Nothing has changed. I was suggesting that it made sense to move for Mark Stone at the deadline in 2019 when we were out of the playoffs. The point of sports is to win games and compete and enjoy success and unless you're at the point where there is literally no option but a full rebuild (which is where we were at 2015-2019 or so) then in my world you try to improve and compete and win games.

Your direction is determined by your star players. We have some absolutely elite star players here, of the sort we've rarely had throughout this team's history. You absolutely have to try building around those guys while you can to see if you can make it work. If it doesn't work - whatever, you're just back to the same rebuild place 2 years from now that everyone is desperate for now.

Detroit is heading into year 8 of a rebuild and they have no talent. All the draft pick surpluses and prospect lists in the world simply don't change that. They'll probably come out of this as an OK team, but according to this board, OK teams should just be blowing it up and rebuilding right away again.

 

[Diogenes92]

Don't confuse making the playoffs as to me saying that would be the benchmark of a good team. It's a low bar to meet.

And even squeaking into the playoffs is still a longshot with this roster. That's what makes the trade such a failure.

Hronek (offensively inclined Dman) doesn't suddenly fix this team's problems.

 

[Hodgy]

I've always been a compete-now guy. Nothing has changed. I was suggesting that it made sense to move for Mark Stone at the deadline in 2019 when we were out of the playoffs. The point of sports is to win games and compete and enjoy success and unless you're at the point where there is literally no option but a full rebuild (which is where we were at 2015-2019 or so) then in my world you try to improve and compete and win games.

Your direction is determined by your star players. We have some absolutely elite star players here, of the sort we've rarely had throughout this team's history. You absolutely have to try building around those guys while you can to see if you can make it work. If it doesn't work - whatever, you're just back to the same rebuild place 2 years from now that everyone is desperate for now.

Detroit is heading into year 8 of a rebuild and they have no talent. All the draft pick surpluses and prospect lists in the world simply don't change that. They'll probably come out of this as an OK team, but according to this board, OK teams should just be blowing it up and rebuilding right away again.

But, for the record, you do acknowledge the compete now chance is unlikely to actually work? I believe you have recently stated that. Otherwise, sure, a lot of the above is personal preference. Overall I agree the point is to try to win, but I don't think the compete now approach is actually more likely to achieve that, and in fact, I think the opposite is true.

Also, who are the "absolutely elite players". Pettersson, for sure. But Hughes is probably not even a top 10 defensemen so I'm not sure on him. Elite, definitely. And Demko? Who currently has a sub 900 svp? Not too sure that I would go for that quite yet.

 

[docbenton]

This team has the worst PK and bottom of the league Defense.

People need to cool it with the playoff talk until they have at least a sniff at a wildcard spot next season.

I just don't understand how people can continue to argue that this team is great when the data is there to prove otherwise.

Has Vancouver had the worst goaltending in the league this year? The stats are close to the bottom if not the bottom. This doesn't get talked about enough.