Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[theguardianII]

The new excuse will be the Demko injury. Book it.

Officially recognized as a disaster by these guys.
They even get a few laughs but this time they are not blaming ignorant fans for being impatient.

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[BrentSopelsHair]

This organizations obsession with this core fascinates me.

It’s just so random. Like this isn’t some team that dominates in the regular season and is missing that “it factor” in the playoffs like Toronto, or washington before they got over the hump.

They suck all year................. and they are so loyal to them.
I’ve never seen that kind of loyalty to trash before
Really is wild and interesting to me.

I think it all plays together. This is the first core that has FA's fingerprints all over it, and after being the toast of the town when the Canucks were good he wants to be able to have the same experience while being able to say "I recommended Virtanen" or "I said we needed someone who's a tough leader like Miller".

However, now that the project has blatantly failed, Mr Failson cannot come to grips with the need to burn it down. He still has his favourites on the team, and cannot allow a rebuild because that would cement the fact that his vision failed. And as the goofball of the family, this is probably the hardest choice he's ever had to make in his life, and he is botching it monumentally

 

[Breakers]

Officially recognized as a disaster by these guys.
They even get a few laughs but this time they are not blaming ignorant fans for being impatient.

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I laughed so hard at this

Them comparing Jim Benning to George Constanza.
And how much Vancouver fans wanted JT Miller gone yet it it’s almost like the signed him out of spite to the fan base.

 

[gringo]

I didn't realize the whole management group dodged the season ticket holder event Saturday... yikes...

In Carolina and Pittsburgh I’m sure that wouldn’t even be noticed

 

[Melvin]

The burrows hansen trade deadline and the pettersson draft

Those 5-6 months were a good time.

Scary to think Where would this team be today if not for Dahlen and goldobin.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Organization is a complete joke now

- can’t drat
- can’t scout
- horrible contracts
- zero prospects
- can’t develop young players
- can’t coach or play with discipline and structure
- can’t manage injuries
- can’t hold a lead

Fans are stuck with tickets now but that will erode as renewals come up.

This franchise is dying under the aqua family

you missed, can't trade

 

[krutovsdonut]

i have to say that in over 40 years of fandom i have never ever been more discontent with this frachise than i am right now. the on ice product is absolutely toxic. i have always been able to segment the team and focus on something positive. i mean at one point i was cheering primarily for brian bradley, but there have always been players i respect on the roster. right now the fact we have talented players and they roll out this unprofessional selfish mess of a game night after night but still take care to get their personal stats really leaves me cold. it's like having an entire roster made up of the worst kind of nhl "star" player.

meanwhile the absolute paralysis of management is astonishing. i think if at the time of his hire someone had predicted rutherford still would not have made a significant trade 13 months into his tenure the poster would have been banned for trolling. i am also still trying to grasp the strategy behind hanging boudreau out to dry at the beginning of the season and then leaving him as the lamest of lame ducks to struggle.

i don't know what the people running this team are doing. the longer they don't seem to be doing it, the harder it seems to me to dig out of this mess without a fire sale. if that is what is coming, i want allvin and rutherford out on their asses.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

It's posts like this that fascinate and confuse me. I've never seen anything like it from a fanbase, ever.

Literally every team is loyal to their best players. Impact players are very hard to get. 1-for-1 star-for-star deals don't happen. Basically the only top players in this sport who get moved are moved because the player is forcing their way out. When that happens it's quantity for quality and the team moving the quality basically always loses.

And the core players are not the problem here. They're performing, bar the injured Demko. That people are cheerleading trading 'trash' on pace for 60 goals is absolutely insane to me.

The exception is Boeser and the inexplicable extension he got last summer, although management appears to have quickly realized what a terrible mistake they made there and reports are that they're trying very hard to move him, to the point of involving the agent.

I've talked with other folks outside of here and Petersson and Demko are about the only two I'd list as being untouchables. I'd work Hughes, Horvat and Kuz in there, too, but I think it's going to be near impossible to retain all of those players.

The problem is that the team has more or less been in a holding pattern for like 4 years. There's been no significant changes and the team has arguably gotten worse.

Looking at it from that perspective, yeah, people are going to want to agitate for change.

I don't agree (and never have) with Horvat getting the rashers of shit he gets. I don't want to trade Horvat, but I'm skeptical we're going to retain him and that his having a career season will make him affordable. I honestly don't think he wants to be here, so it's better to get some kind of return than be left holding out dicks yet again.

It's an incredibly dumb situation the team half painted themselves into under Benning and then fully completed the painting with the Miller extension. And even if he's performing adequately, I'd say that he's just a personality that shouldn't be around this team.

This team feels like a lot of great individual parts, but not a lot of gelling. There's no cohesion we're seeing and that's a problem, unfortunately.

For every nice saucer pass from Miller to Horvat there's like 5 instances of complete breakdown. That's another reason why folks are advocating for this sort of stuff.

Dumb venting:

Imagine if OEL was completely off the table and Benning didn't do what he f***ing did. Seriously, I still don't think the average person realizes just how incredibly damaging those 2 offseasons were. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but yeah.

We could have potentially traded off Markstrom for some kind of return, kept Toffoli and Tanev, maybe even kept Edler.

Those moves alone would've had us positioned far, far better. And that's without even thinking about having lost McCann and Forsling for literal garbage. (Remember: no shortcuts!)

 

[Sedinery]

you missed, can't trade

Ahh good one, sadly the list can be expanded very easily

 

[y2kcanucks]

That’s the thing, how does the team acquire two top four defensemen? Few UFA options and the team doesn’t have many trade assets.

This is why I say the Canucks need to rebuild and look 5-6 years out from now (minimum, depending on that Miller contract). Sure there are ways to get rid of some of these bad contracts via buyout, but how are you going to acquire legitimate top 4 defensemen and legitimate replacements for Boeser/Garland/Horvat when you don’t have any prospects and already have a draft pick deficit? Sure you can make a big UFA signing or two, but you’ll still have too many holes to ice a contender. This is recycling the Benning plan, with a moderately better talent evaluator.

 

[arttk]

The new excuse will be the Demko injury. Book it.

Parking Demko is the best thing to do for the tank

 

[iFan]

Just lose every game we can for the rest of the season, if we don’t get another point all season, I’ll be very happy. The season is lost and we’re not good enough, we need to do everything possible to better our chances at getting Bedard. This draft is loaded and has some very promising players in the top part of the draft, we need at least one of them. If this management group has any courage trade Miller and if ask admit it was the wrong move. If you can’t re-sign Horvat or Kuz by TDL you trade both of them as well. Boeser should also be moved.

This TDL will be very telling because their forced to pick a direction and show us if they are capable of making trades. If they keep Horvat and Kuz after the TDL and their not re-signed, then it’s clear their all talk. If they re-sign Horvat and Kuz without moving out cap like Miller, Myers and Boeser than it shows their just winging it and there is no real plan. It’s been over a year since they took over and we as fans have no idea what their trying to do and that’s a massive issue but this TDL will be telling for us fans and if their any good at their jobs.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

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it's hard to get bieksa's comment to the room earlier this year out of my head. you've got bruce, he's a competent coach, and he's pretty easy on you and he lets you play come to work with a smile on your face.

saying but not saying, appreciate this absolute gift and don't abuse it you spoiled lazy pieces of _______.

 

[krutovsdonut]

trying to look on the positives.

it is sad that i need to keep going back to the late 80s for analogies, but maybe boudreau is this era's bob maccammon. a gentleman of a coach (for the era) who can't actually turn the team around but who prepares the ground for a coach who can by showing the players they can't do it without discipline and sacrifice. if nothing else, the team will be receptive to stricter coaching when he goes.

the other positive is we are well positioned to really tank after the tdl. it's nearly impossible to imagine trades that would stabilize or turn this team around with whatever is going on in the room.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

i have to say that in over 40 years of fandom i have never ever been more discontent with this frachise than i am right now. the on ice product is absolutely toxic. i have always been able to segment the team and focus on something positive. i mean at one point i was cheering primarily for brian bradley, but there have always been players i respect on the roster. right now the fact we have talented players and they roll out this unprofessional selfish mess of a game night after night but still take care to get their personal stats really leaves me cold. it's like having an entire roster made up of the worst kind of nhl "star" player.

meanwhile the absolute paralysis of management is astonishing. i think if at the time of his hire someone had predicted rutherford still would not have made a significant trade 13 months into his tenure the poster would have been banned for trolling. i am also still trying to grasp the strategy behind hanging boudreau out to dry at the beginning of the season and then leaving him as the lamest of lame ducks to struggle.

i don't know what the people running this team are doing. the longer they don't seem to be doing it, the harder it seems to me to dig out of this mess without a fire sale. if that is what is coming, i want allvin and rutherford out on their asses.

At least you’ve come around and can appreciate why people were so critical of the Benning regime over the years. He set us up for a decade of trash.

 

[Sedinery]

That may have worked way back but not today. How did that work out for him in Arizona? Terrible choice if they make it. Would much rather go with Colliton or Gronborg.

Coliton had Kane and Toews and still stunk out the joint

Gronborg is a risk but pretty intriguing

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

i have to say that in over 40 years of fandom i have never ever been more discontent with this frachise than i am right now. the on ice product is absolutely toxic. i have always been able to segment the team and focus on something positive. i mean at one point i was cheering primarily for brian bradley, but there have always been players i respect on the roster. right now the fact we have talented players and they roll out this unprofessional selfish mess of a game night after night but still take care to get their personal stats really leaves me cold. it's like having an entire roster made up of the worst kind of nhl "star" player.

meanwhile the absolute paralysis of management is astonishing. i think if at the time of his hire someone had predicted rutherford still would not have made a significant trade 13 months into his tenure the poster would have been banned for trolling. i am also still trying to grasp the strategy behind hanging boudreau out to dry at the beginning of the season and then leaving him as the lamest of lame ducks to struggle.

i don't know what the people running this team are doing. the longer they don't seem to be doing it, the harder it seems to me to dig out of this mess without a fire sale. if that is what is coming, i want allvin and rutherford out on their asses.

Ya the one thing about even the brutal Messier era was stuff happened.


Year one 97-98,
January 2, Canucks traded Gelinas and McLean to the Canes for Burke, Sanderson and Ciccone

Feb 4, Traded Sanderson for Brad May

Feb 6, the Canucks traded Trevor Linden for Bertuzzi, McCabe and a 3rd Round pick.

Mar 3. dumped Grant Ledyard to the Bruins for a late pick

March 4 traded Burke to the Flyers for Garth Snow

on and on 10 trades from Jan 1 to the deadline.

Year two 98-99,
Oct 19 brought in Trent Klatt from the Flyers for a 6th round pick

January 17 traded Bure, Ferece, Hedican, 3rd Round Pick to the Panthers for Jovanovski, Weekes, Gagner, Brown, 1st Round Pick

3 more minor trades that year before deadline...

At the draft they made numerous trades... long story short moving McCabe and a bunch of mid round picks to get 2nd overall. With 2nd and 3rd overall took the Sedins.

Into 99-00

Traded Mogilny to the Devils for Morrison

...............

Even with this flawed approach they came out from being a veteran team with some mid-age top end players (Bure and Mogilny) and had moved on to:

Naslund, Bertuzzi, Ohlund, Jovanovski, Morrison, the Sedins.

All this and somehow they had prospects coming up despite having a brutal farm team. These included Cooke, Ruutu, Sopel, Schaefer.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Ya the one thing about even the brutal Messier era was stuff happened.


Year one 97-98,
January 2, Canucks traded Gelinas and McLean to the Canes for Burke, Sanderson and Ciccone

Feb 4, Traded Sanderson for Brad May

Feb 6, the Canucks traded Trevor Linden for Bertuzzi, McCabe and a 3rd Round pick.

Mar 3. dumped Grant Ledyard to the Bruins for a late pick

March 4 traded Burke to the Flyers for Garth Snow

on and on 10 trades from Jan 1 to the deadline.

Year two 98-99,
Oct 19 brought in Trent Klatt from the Flyers for a 6th round pick

January 17 traded Bure, Ferece, Hedican, 3rd Round Pick to the Panthers for Jovanovski, Weekes, Gagner, Brown, 1st Round Pick

3 more minor trades that year before deadline...

At the draft they made numerous trades... long story short moving McCabe and a bunch of mid round picks to get 2nd overall. With 2nd and 3rd overall took the Sedins.

Into 99-00

Traded Mogilny to the Devils for Morrison

...............

Even with this flawed approach they came out from being a veteran team with some mid-age top end players (Bure and Mogilny) and had moved on to:

Naslund, Bertuzzi, Ohlund, Jovanovski, Morrison, the Sedins.

All this and somehow they had prospects coming up despite having a brutal farm team. These included Cooke, Ruutu, Sopel, Schaefer.

Trades this year (for reference):

October 7: Canucks trade 2nd Round Pick (2024) and Dickinson for Riley Stillman

October 27: Canucks Trade Dipietro and Myrenberg for Jack Studnicka

October 28: Canucks trade a 5th round Pick for Bear and Pederson

 

[me2]

That about sums up the Rutherford era. Lots of promising talk and zero notable change.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I don't quite understand the fan's fascination with creating cap space for the next couple seasons. Trading picks to dump players, buying out some of them, LTIR-ing others. What's the point? To extend Horvat/Kuzmenko/Schenn so we can bring the same team back next season? No thanks. Trading Myers and his $6m cap hit is good, until you realize any respectable 2nd pairing RHD will cost just as much, so its a marginal upgrade on a team desperately needing to revamp the blueline. Buying out OEL so we have a cap penalty for the next how many years, just to open up a few millions on this flaw roster? Who is going to replace OEL, Rathbone? Hit the UFA market? Who's to say any players even want to come to this mess without a huge overpayment? Especially with the medical records of this team, would any player feel comfortable knowing Pearson's recent set back and the team's history? I understand the management's desire to create cap space (by mortgaging futures if need be), because their job depends on short term "success", but for long term success, none of these bandaid solutions will matter. It just delays the inevitable, while digging a deeper hole to climb out of in a few years.

All these discussion about attaching picks to move contracts are nuts to me. We are already down a 2nd next draft, want to lose more? We have the 28th ranked prospect pool (which I felt is being generous), but we want to draft less in order to dump a contract?

Aside from the Boeser/Provorov rumor (which doesn't even clear any cap space), just stay the course, trade all pending UFA for whatever you can get, and start over.

 

[credulous]

I don't quite understand the fan's fascination with creating cap space for the next couple seasons

it made some sense when the plan was to keep the core together and supplement with a player like marino or severson or whatever. it makes no sense now the team is exposed as fatally flawed and they need to bring in more than one or two players

 

[gringo]

I don't quite understand the fan's fascination with creating cap space for the next couple seasons. Trading picks to dump players, buying out some of them, LTIR-ing others. What's the point? To extend Horvat/Kuzmenko/Schenn so we can bring the same team back next season? No thanks. Trading Myers and his $6m cap hit is good, until you realize any respectable 2nd pairing RHD will cost just as much, so its a marginal upgrade on a team desperately needing to revamp the blueline. Buying out OEL so we have a cap penalty for the next how many years, just to open up a few millions on this flaw roster? Who is going to replace OEL, Rathbone? Hit the UFA market? Who's to say any players even want to come to this mess without a huge overpayment? Especially with the medical records of this team, would any player feel comfortable knowing Pearson's recent set back and the team's history? I understand the management's desire to create cap space (by mortgaging futures if need be), because their job depends on short term "success", but for long term success, none of these bandaid solutions will matter. It just delays the inevitable, while digging a deeper hole to climb out of in a few years.

All these discussion about attaching picks to move contracts are nuts to me. We are already down a 2nd next draft, want to lose more? We have the 28th ranked prospect pool (which I felt is being generous), but we want to draft less in order to dump a contract?

Aside from the Boeser/Provorov rumor (which doesn't even clear any cap space), just stay the course, trade all pending UFA for whatever you can get, and start over.

Only reason to buyout players is to give the fans mercy… I never want to see guys like Boeser and Myers play in a canucks sweater one second longer than they have to. Get em outta here

 

[rypper]

Only reason to buyout players is to give the fans mercy… I never want to see guys like Boeser and Myers play in a canucks sweater one second longer than they have to. Get em outta here

Oel and Garland are in front of them on the list.

 

[Hansen]

Scary to think Where would this team be today if not for Dahlen and goldobin.

 

[mriswith]

Edler was a gigantic warning siren that something was fatally wrong here. I think another one is Garland.

Garland had 150 games of 1st line production until he got beaten down by this franchise 1/3 into his first season here and he never recovered. This is not the player he was in Arizona or his first batch of games here and at this point it seems unreasonable to blame it all on coaching. And it's really weird how he was down on himself in summer talking about having had a slump year when the season he put up was worth 8 mil and he makes 5.

And he's not an exception. It's the rule and not the exception that the first half season here is every players best performance regardless of tenure. And looking at Boudreau that seems to be true for coaches too.

It's one thing to look at rookies like Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Hoglander and Podkolzin who all played their best hockey right out of the gate here and either didn't recover it or took years to hit the level they started at. You can blame that on rookie luck. Or middle six players like Pearson you can just say it's streaky luck that his first half season here was also his best performance. Roussel got a nasty injury, just bad luck that his first half season here was his best hockey.

But at some point you have to look at the enormous number of players that come here and almost immediately regress and wonder if maybe instead of just bad luck and it wasn't just Benning or Green or Boudreau. The entire thing is rotten head to toe.