Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[Peter Griffin]

Yes, losing those guys would definitely be addition by subtraction.

If we bring back the same group forwards who don't know how to play defense, I feel like we need 2 Tanev's basically...one to play with Quinn and allow him to do his thing offensively. Another to anchor the 2nd pairing.

I would hope that moves at forward will be made as well with Boeser/Garland being the biggest targets to move. The forward group definitely needs to be harder to play against, too many similar, one-dimensional players right now.

 

[MikeK]

Myers is definitely moveable. No question about it. It's been proven time and time again that this league still values huge RHD. He'd be a serviceable Dman for a contender where he could slot into a 5th/6th position with the possibility to slide up if injuries forced it. with only 1 year remaining he'd easily get attention should the Canucks seriously want to move him.

OEL on the other hand, he's either here for the entirety, or must be bought out. No team in the league is taking that player on with the amount of money and term still left. That will go down as one of the worst trades this team ever made.

 

[m9]

Buying out OEL only makes sense as some sort of greater plan where they've acquired multiple competent defensemen and re-signed Bo/Kuzmenko, plus have dumped other dead weight.

We saw how little this management accomplished last summer so I doubt they have all that in them this one.

Sounds great in theory, though.

 

[credulous]

buying out oel only makes sense in a world where your defense cap structure is something like:

hughes 7.85
??? 5
bear 2
??? .875
dermott 1.5
??? .75
burroughs .75

the ??? on the first and second pairing have to give you basically all star performance for that to be contender level defense and i don't know where you find those guys. i guess in a fantasy land it's gavrikov and livingstone but gavrikov has been almost as bad as myers this year and livingstone isn't anywhere close to nhl level yet

 

[4Twenty]

I'd be surprised if those teams were on his NTC list at this point - young playoff-pushing teams. O6 teams always have a draw and he'd have history/friends in Buffalo. And there will be others. I didn't list Ottawa because I think he actually would block a trade there.

And yeah, maybe it requires a small sweetener. But his contract is very unique and using a comparison like Dickinson where you're paying the team to take the cap hit AND a huge pile of real money is not realistic. Plus Myers is perceived as a better player than Dickinson, and is a high-minute RHD which carries major demand even if you don't play those minutes very well - as we saw with Gudbranson.

The idea he’d waive to Buffalo because there’s ONE holdover from when he was there nearly a decade ago (Girgensons) is pie in the sky stuff.

 

[4Twenty]

Myers is definitely moveable. No question about it. It's been proven time and time again that this league still values huge RHD. He'd be a serviceable Dman for a contender where he could slot into a 5th/6th position with the possibility to slide up if injuries forced it. with only 1 year remaining he'd easily get attention should the Canucks seriously want to move him.

OEL on the other hand, he's either here for the entirety, or must be bought out. No team in the league is taking that player on with the amount of money and term still left. That will go down as one of the worst trades this team ever made.

Which contender can afford $6m caphit for a 3rd pair defensman. List a couple of your reasonable options.

Using Gudbranson as an example doesn’t work for a contender. When a contender hopeful Calgary signed him the year previous he was at $1.95m.

It wasn’t even that long ago that pedigree filled RHD Luke Schenn was on the Utica Comets. At a $6m hit on the cap there’s not a lot of places that can fit him let alone desire him.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Myers is definitely moveable. No question about it. It's been proven time and time again that this league still values huge RHD. He'd be a serviceable Dman for a contender where he could slot into a 5th/6th position with the possibility to slide up if injuries forced it. with only 1 year remaining he'd easily get attention should the Canucks seriously want to move him.

OEL on the other hand, he's either here for the entirety, or must be bought out. No team in the league is taking that player on with the amount of money and term still left. That will go down as one of the worst trades this team ever made.

Is LTIRetirement a possibility at all for OEL? Not wishing injury on him, but just curious if he 'suddenly' was diagnosed with a 'skin condition' (like Hossa) or something if the CBA wouldn't forbid us from doing that because of how his contract is structured or whatever.

That and some sort of fluke landing us Bedard is about all that's keeping me going at the moment.

 

[DS7]

Is LTIRetirement a possibility at all for OEL? Not wishing injury on him, but just curious if he 'suddenly' was diagnosed with a 'skin condition' (like Hossa) or something if the CBA wouldn't forbid us from doing that because of how his contract is structured or whatever.

That and some sort of fluke landing us Bedard is about all that's keeping me going at the moment.

We can always plant some Coke on him like Mike Richards.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Which contender can afford $6m caphit for a 3rd pair defensman.

None. That's why you trade him to a team with ample cap space who then launders his cap hit for virtually no real cash and gets a pick for him.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It's kind of shitty Dave Nonis-y do-nothing management where you're sitting on the fence scared to make a move and do the aggressive things required to succeed. And it will leave you stuck in the middle in nowhere land.

I said the same things last summer when they signed Boeser, didn't aggressively move out cap, and retained Boudreau instead of bringing in their guy as head coach.

Oh I bet they will go your route of "agressively" kicking the can down the road again.

The rebuild will take another decade with how barren this team will be of anything of value once that comes pretty much ensuring another cycle of mediocrity.

Selling high on Horvat is not in the DNA of this team. They buy high and sell low on assets. That is the Canuck way. So... Horvats case, we buy.

 

[MS]

Oh I bet they will go your route of "agressively" kicking the can down the road again.

The rebuild will take another decade with how barren this team will be of anything of value once that comes pretty much ensuring another cycle of mediocrity.

Selling high on Horvat is not in the DNA of this team. They buy high and sell low on assets. That is the Canuck way. So... Horvats case, we buy.

There's no such thing as 'selling high' on a rental of a mid-prime impact player. By definition you will always be taking a bunch of low-percentage magic beans for a top NHL player. It's a terrible sort of transaction to be making which is why teams basically never let players of this age/profile get into this situation.

 

[gringo]

4 decisions changed this organization from cup contender to pure ass.




Ehlers EP40 Kuzmenko

Tkachuk Horvat Miller

Mikheyev Guenther Boeser

Hoglander Lazar Joshua


Hughes Schenn
Stud D. Myers
Stud D. Bear

1. draft Ehlers over Virtanen
2. Draft Tkachuk over Juolevi
3. Draft Caulfield over Podkolzin
4. Don’t make the OEL trade

I’d prefer drafting Chychrun to Tkachuk

There's no such thing as 'selling high' on a rental of a mid-prime impact player. By definition you will always be taking a bunch of low-percentage magic beans for a top NHL player. It's a terrible sort of transaction to be making which is why teams basically never let players of this age/profile get into this situation.

28 years old is mid-prime? I guess in the same way my 50 year old cousin calls himself middle age

 

[Peen]

We currently have $14.5 million in cap space against an $83.5 million cap, but really that's probably $17 million because it's hugely likely Poolman will be Ferlanded as a LTIR case.

I've said I'd do 3 things :

1) Buy out OEL.
2) Trade Myers once his bonus is paid and he only has $1 million in salary owing for next year. He should be very tradeable at that stage. If you need to add a pick, do it.
3) Retain down to $5 million on Boeser and hopefully get a pick or something back.

Do those 3 things and we clear $18 million in cap space.

That leaves $32.5 million (or really $35 million) of cap space for 23-24, of which Kuzmenko and Horvat will only take ~$14.5 million. Bear will probably take another $2 million.

Once you fill in a couple depth signings that should still leave a reasonable amount to try and make a couple smart mid-level UFA signings to replace Myers and OEL. Or what I'd really like is some sort of Boeser-Provorov trade.

I'm also not even touching a Garland trade or a Pearson buyout (or dump with a pick) here, which are also possibilities

So Provorov is one hole, but again, if they do what you are saying, they go into the summer with only Hughes and Provorov signed. You suggest Bear and Schenn.

They still need a legitimate (like clear cut, it’s unquestionable) top four RHD and a PKing LHD.

And a legitimate higher end 3c who can either propel meh defensive wingers to ok results or be on a matchup line with the Pearsons and Mikheyevs of the world.

I don’t see those players in free agency and I don’t see how we would have assets to get those players.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

There's no such thing as 'selling high' on a rental of a mid-prime impact player. By definition you will always be taking a bunch of low-percentage magic beans for a top NHL player. It's a terrible sort of transaction to be making which is why teams basically never let players of this age/profile get into this situation.

They will resign him and the Horvat & Miller deals will be our Eriksson & OEL deals ~4 years from now.

The worst case scenario is signing Horvat, pretending we will be able to contend during his prime.

And you will very likely get your wish.


There is NOTHING special about our core. Its at least 2 players short and not as good as the actual contending teams and only Hughes will be on a contract he outperforms after Pettersson is extended.

I think you have bought in to your idea of draft picks being worthless to such an extent that the result is your line of thinking NEVER builds a contender. Why are you so averse to the variance in draft picks, but are completely content in creating the near certain death of mediocrity your plan entails?

 

[gringo]

They will resign him and the Horvat & Miller deals will be our Eriksson & OEL deals ~4 years from now.

The worst case scenario is signing Horvat, pretending we will be able to contend during his prime.

And you will very likely get your wish.

Should be fine signing actual nhl stars to big contracts it’s when you give out big contracts to poor players like Boeser - that’s when you get in trouble.

 

[4Twenty]

I’d prefer drafting Chychrun to Tkachuk


28 years old is mid-prime? I guess in the same way my 50 year old cousin calls himself middle age

Chychrun isn’t as valuable as Tkachuk. If we’re hindsighting for specific position why not take the rarer RH D in McAvoy. Though I’d still take Tkachuk. He’s a rarer breed then a LHD.

None. That's why you trade him to a team with ample cap space who then launders his cap hit for virtually no real cash and gets a pick for him.

So incredibly convoluted and not “easy”. I agree.

I don’t believe any contender would even want him at $3m cap. Only 7 teams currently have $3m in space. The Jets and Wild the closest to contender.

He’s big and right handed but been on losers nearly his entire career. Isn’t a stabilizing presence. Anchors one of the worst PK’s of all time.

Cap is king and most of the teams in the league are in a cap predicament.

 

[bandwagonesque]

So incredibly convoluted and not “easy”. I agree.

Incredibly convoluted? It happens regularly and there's nothing difficult about it. The only thing unusual about it is that it's rare for a player with any value to be in the last year of a heavily frontloaded contract with virtually no real cash remaining to be paid out.

I don’t believe any contender would even want him at $3m cap. Only 7 teams currently have $3m in space. The Jets and Wild the closest to contender.

Another team can cut that in half for 250k, or send back salary. Or acquire him at the deadline from a third team.

 

[racerjoe]

Incredibly convoluted? It happens regularly and there's nothing difficult about it. The only thing unusual about it is that it's rare for a player with any value to be in the last year of a heavily frontloaded contract with virtually no real cash remaining to be paid out.

Another team can cut that in half for 250k, or send back salary. Or acquire him at the deadline from a third team.

Or the cap accrued over the season will be enough... much like happens every year and why we rarely see moves before the deadline... like right now.

 

[4Twenty]

Incredibly convoluted? It happens regularly and there's nothing difficult about it. The only thing unusual about it is that it's rare for a player with any value to be in the last year of a heavily frontloaded contract with virtually no real cash remaining to be paid out.

Another team can cut that in half for 250k, or send back salary. Or acquire him at the deadline from a third team.

He has a no trade clause. It’s certainly not easy and it has only occurred at trade deadlines to my recollection.

All of these options you’re listing are convoluted. I don’t think a double or triple flip is straight forward.

Why/how is permission being given by Myers side. That itself makes it convoluted.

 

[Hoglander]

It's virtually a guarantee that they will be buying contracts out, and/or moving picks and prospects to get rid of bad contracts. They will be getting absolutely bent over this upcoming offseason (worse than the Dickinson deal), once they cap themselves out again after re-signing Horvat and Kuzmenko before the deadline. They'll keep this years' first, but we won't have a pick in the top 100 of the 2024 draft - mark my words.

 

[me2]

The best thing about this is Myers OEL only cost the Canucks $13.26m but deliver negative $14m.

 

[BimJenning]

Vancouver Canucks to try to re-sign Andrei Kuzmenko amid trade interest | TSN

WAIT AND SEE! WAIT AND SEE!

"But for now, the Canucks aren’t even sure they want to move him. They want to try and see if they can sign him. I think the price starts at at least $6 million per year on a bridge deal for Kuzmenko to stay in Vancouver, where, by all accounts, he is quite happy."

 

[Orr4Norris]

He can block 10 teams. The top 15 probably can’t afford the cap hit even if they value the player.


So there’s 7-10 teams who might value him or be willing to take him on as a dump fit assets.


Who are these teams? You use Buffalo and Detroit….I bet those two are in the ntc list. And even Detroit currently wouldn’t be able to add a $6m hit without having to move other cap.

Doubtful anyone’s waiving for Arizona.

Like I said earlier, the only team in a position to eat shit that Myers may waive to imo is Anaheim.

He has a NTC though, not a NMC. If the management team doesn’t see him as part of this team next year, then they should inform him he’ll be waived if he doesn’t except a trade. Time to play hardball.

 

[4th line culture]

He has a NTC though, not a NMC. If the management team doesn’t see him as part of this team next year, then they should inform him he’ll be waived if he doesn’t except a trade. Time to play hardball.

I think they should make him except a trade no acceptions

 

[Frostage]

MS if you do manage the moves you've outlined and gotten rid of OEL and Myers. Who would you choose to replace them?