Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[Hit the post]

Average Canucks fan is 980 years old?

Anti-dog years?

 

[Diogenes92]

Hockey Central on Sportsnet panel saying that its time for Canucks to sell off. Team has no direction or apparent leadership.

Futa says that the Canucks should get a king's ransom for Kuzmenko.

 

[rypper]

could be granato. her husband recently reduced his commitments and she may not be enjoying being a front office executive as much as she thought

Ferraro reduced commitments because it's kind of inappropriate for him to talk canucks, on canucks radio, or even league wide with his wife working in a front office.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Anti-dog years?

Appropriate seeing as the team looks like dogshit most nights.

 

[F A N]

Ferraro reduced commitments because it's kind of inappropriate for him to talk canucks, on canucks radio, or even league wide with his wife working in a front office.

So talking shit about your wife's employer is inappropriate?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Anti-dog years?

Sounds like a Finnish hockey coach or something.

 

[credulous]

wouldn't ferraro slowing down be a sign of the opposite? that it's on him now to pick up the slack at home while his wife's career takes precedence?

their youngest kid is like 14. and it's not like she travels with the team

i think ferraro taking a step back was about slowing down his own career not about covering for his wife

Ferraro reduced commitments because it's kind of inappropriate for him to talk canucks, on canucks radio, or even league wide with his wife working in a front office.

i'm talking about him quitting tsn. he's still doing some analysis for espn but i don't think he's doing color anymore. he's also still doing his local radio hits so i don't think it was about avoiding talking about the canucks

 

[Slapshot_11]

f*** this management and f*** blueberry boy

Imagine the haul we coulda gotten for miller, horvat, schenn, kuz, even garland if these morons actually did a rebuild

But no lets get some other teams cast-offs

 

[Diogenes92]

f*** this management and f*** blueberry boy

Imagine the haul we coulda gotten for miller, horvat, schenn, kuz, even garland if these morons actually did a rebuild

But no lets get some other teams cast-offs

Don't forget trading for "age-gap" players! Draft picks are poison to this franchise.

 

[canucksfan]

f*** this management and f*** blueberry boy

Imagine the haul we coulda gotten for miller, horvat, schenn, kuz, even garland if these morons actually did a rebuild

But no lets get some other teams cast-offs

It's getting to a point where a rebuild will be forced on them.

 

[valkynax]

Moleman and Allvin came in with fans having THE lowest possible expectations for any GM in the league.

Yet they managed to dig themselves even deeper?????

HOW?????????

 

[gringo]

JRs done after the season … all signs are pointing in that direction

 

[TruGr1t]

The Canucks list of qualified candidates for the Presidents job was likely short since the owner has a reputation as a total head case, thus you end up with Rutherford … probably one of the few “name” candidates (if not the only one) who would take the job.

 

[iFan]

With Rutherford’s commits about how he should’ve retired after the Pens and the news of someone retiring in the Canucks management, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Rutherford. He could come out and say the team needs a rebuild it’s too far gone and he didnt sign up for a rebuild so he’s going to enjoy retirement. This sets things up nicely for the management group to sell a new direction and pretend that they know what their doing. Our media will be soft on them and not pressure them on why did you re-sign Boeser and Miller to those crazy contracts and ask them how they didn’t see this coming given our cap situation, lack of prospects in the system and big pay days coming up for expiring star players.

 

[Bubbles]

The Canucks list of qualified candidates for the Presidents job was likely short since the owner has a reputation as a total head case, thus you end up with Rutherford … probably one of the few “name” candidates (if not the only one) who would take the job.

Blueberry Boy pretty much only had Rutherford in mind. I doubt there was any serious search of any candidates anyways. This only adds to the long list of having a person in mind before doing any interviews. Happened with Gillis, Benning, even Linden.

And I keep saying, when Rutherford stepped down in Pittsburgh, his phone wasn't exactly ringing off the hook.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

4 decisions changed this organization from cup contender to pure ass.




Ehlers EP40 Kuzmenko

Tkachuk Horvat Miller

Mikheyev Guenther Boeser

Hoglander Lazar Joshua


Hughes Schenn
Stud D. Myers
Stud D. Bear

1. draft Ehlers over Virtanen
2. Draft Tkachuk over Juolevi
3. Draft Caulfield over Podkolzin
4. Don’t make the OEL trade

 

[Spectrefire]

I'd thought it'd be hard to find a management group to compete with Jim Benning for dumbest in the league, but Jimmy Rutherford and Allvin are trying to the damndest.

 

[Peen]

I implore @MS to give the plan on how the team can clear cap space (including projecting the costs to dump/buy out salary) and sign Horvat at 8+, Kuzmenko at 6+, and Petterson at 10+. And then how they’ll be able to add win now pieces around those guys with limited cap space and zero futures.

I’ve tried fiddling and it does not seem possible. I could have bought it a year ago if they had made the necessary moves at the TDL and draft. But they have killed their leverage because now everyone has it confirmed that they don’t want to take a step back. They could have been at the same spot in the standings as they are now with a brighter short term outlook had they seen the forest for the trees.

 

[canucksfan]

I implore @MS to give the plan on how the team can clear cap space (including projecting the costs to dump/buy out salary) and sign Horvat at 8+, Kuzmenko at 6+, and Petterson at 10+. And then how they’ll be able to add win now pieces around those guys with limited cap space and zero futures.

I’ve tried fiddling and it does not seem possible. I could have bought it a year ago if they had made the necessary moves at the TDL and draft. But they have killed their leverage because now everyone has it confirmed that they don’t want to take a step back. They could have been at the same spot in the standings as they are now with a brighter short term outlook had they seen the forest for the trees.

I was looking at potential buyouts for some players and in the short term it helps but long term makes the situation worse and with FA actually approve a buyout?

Myers, Garland, Boeser, Pearson, and Miller I would think all have negative value or close to it. OEL can only be bought out. No team is touching that contract. Other teams will be looking at dumping some players. How many teams will take on shitty contracts? How much do they want for them? All these questions should have been answered last off-season. Now, it will have to be rushed this off-season assuming of course the team doesn’t rebuild. What happens if Kuzmenko and Horvat aren’t signed by the TDL? Does management trade both then? If so the team will be a lot worse next season.

Management screwed up big time by keeping Boeser and Miller and not getting rid of one bad contract. There was a chance for a turnaround but now barring a borderline miracle they are f***ed!

 

[Cancuks]

4 decisions changed this organization from cup contender to pure ass.




Ehlers EP40 Kuzmenko

Tkachuk Horvat Miller

Mikheyev Guenther Boeser

Hoglander Lazar Joshua


Hughes Schenn
Stud D. Myers
Stud D. Bear

1. draft Ehlers over Virtanen
2. Draft Tkachuk over Juolevi
3. Draft Caulfield over Podkolzin
4. Don’t make the OEL trade

Not taking Tkachuk was stupid as everyone on this board and their grandmother wanted him and couldn't understand why Benning didn't just take the best player available. Ehlers and Caufield is hindsight as their wasn't a huge outcry for either player on here - I remember everyone wanted Zegras but when the Ducks took him people lost interest.

The OEL trade was infuriating and I remember posting about how his best days were long gone and that this was a shortsighted move.

The true franchise crippling moves are the Canucks unwillingness to admit mistakes and trade players while they have value or before they walk for nothing.

A prime example of this is when they didn't trade Jannik Hansen at the 2016 NHL deadline despite being dogshit all season. His value had never been higher and plenty of teams would have given up a lot for their run. Instead they held onto him, and he went on a tear and almost singlehandedly won 3 games in California that they had no business winning and it cost the Canucks the lottery slot that the Leafs won which got them Matthews and we ended up with.... Juolevi. Which of course, brings us full circle.

Instead, Hansen was dumped the next trade deadline and we only got Goldobin and a 4th round pick.

And after all this, we're still as bad as we were in 2016 and teams like the Leafs are at the top of the league and making the playoffs and have been for a while.

I think we are repeating 2016 all over again and this time instead of putting ourselves into a legitimate position for Bedard we're doubling down on stupid and likely going to hold onto or re-sign players who haven't led us anywhere.

 

[credulous]

I implore @MS to give the plan on how the team can clear cap space (including projecting the costs to dump/buy out salary) and sign Horvat at 8+, Kuzmenko at 6+, and Petterson at 10+. And then how they’ll be able to add win now pieces around those guys with limited cap space and zero futures.

I’ve tried fiddling and it does not seem possible. I could have bought it a year ago if they had made the necessary moves at the TDL and draft. But they have killed their leverage because now everyone has it confirmed that they don’t want to take a step back. They could have been at the same spot in the standings as they are now with a brighter short term outlook had they seen the forest for the trees.

i don't think it can be done either. if you start with the assumption boeser, garland and myers are moveable with no cap implications (no retention, no buyouts, no salary coming back) you end up with the following in offseason 2025:

miller 8
pettersson 9.5 (estimate)
horvat 8 (estimate)
kuzmenko 7 (estimate)
mikheyev 4.75

hughes 7.85
oel buyout 4.77

demko 5

that's like 55 committed and an estimated cap of 92 mil for ~37 in space. if you can find 5 forwards, 3 defenseman and 1 backup goalie all for the minimum that leaves you just under 30 million to sign 4 top 9 forwards and 3 top 4 dmen. that's slightly over 4 mil each. and you have to do basically all of it in free agency as you only have what's in the system now and 2 drafts (one with no 2nd) to fill those spots with cheap elcs. you can't sign basically anyone like bear or hoglander unless you are certain they fit into the top 9/top 4 or you're already in cap trouble

 

[Peen]

i don't think it can be done either. if you start with the assumption boeser, garland and myers are moveable with no cap implications (no retention, no buyouts, no salary coming back) you end up with the following in offseason 2025:

miller 8
pettersson 9.5 (estimate)
horvat 8 (estimate)
kuzmenko 7 (estimate)
mikheyev 4.75

hughes 7.85
oel buyout 4.77

demko 5

that's like 55 committed and an estimated cap of 92 mil for ~37 in space. if you can find 5 forwards, 3 defenseman and 1 backup goalie all for the minimum that leaves you just under 30 million to sign 4 top 9 forwards and 3 top 4 dmen. that's slightly over 4 mil each. and you have to do basically all of it in free agency as you only have what's in the system now and 2 drafts (one with no 2nd) to fill those spots with cheap elcs. you can't sign basically anyone like bear or hoglander unless you are certain they fit into the top 9/top 4 or you're already in cap trouble

When I played with the calculator, I can see a world where they can get to around ~15 in cap space next year.

Poolman LTIR, Boeser and OEL buyout, Myers trade, Stillman to Abbotsford.

Horvat 8.5, Kuzmenko 7, Schenn and Bear 2.5 each.

But man, the cap picture would be bleaker going forward with how heavy OEL's buyout numbers are in year 3 and 4. You'd be at $7MM in buyout cap hit in those years. Which then gets you to the "wtf are we even doing" question if you're trying to compete short term in the front halves of miller and horvat's extensions but are severely limited by no assets and a competitive disadvantage from a cap perspective. And then they get old after.

There aren't any obvious budget Phil Danault's in UFA to carry some 3rd line in tough minutes either. Or obvious (attainable) matchup D worth giving a 3-5 year deal to in FA.

So then you're stuck competing for RFA's (no assets) or internal pipeline (nothing at c/d).

Maybe they win the Bedard lottery and now you have an impact center capable of propping up wingers to better results and then you actually might be cooking with some cap space and not needing to allocate big dollars towards any forwards. That would help.

 

[credulous]

When I played with the calculator, I can see a world where they can get to around ~15 in cap space next year.

next year it's relatively easy to clear space even if you can't trade anyone. just buyout some combination of oel, boeser, garland and poolman. the problem is 2025 and 2026. if you can somehow thread the needle and find an effective lineup in 2025/2026 where 60% of your roster is on not-much-more-than-league-min deals you come out of it in 2027 in fairly good shape (capwise) but by then miller is 34, horvat is 31 and kuzmenko is 30 and you've spent 4 years where making the playoffs is really the best you can aspire to

i just don't see how it's not better to admit defeat with this group (save pettersson and maybe hughes) and try to optimize for 2027 when your window actually opens

 

[Peen]

next year it's relatively easy to clear space even if you can't trade anyone. just buyout some combination of oel, boeser, garland and poolman. the problem is 2025 and 2026. if you can somehow thread the needle and find an effective lineup in 2025/2026 where 60% of your roster is on not-much-more-than-league-min deals you come out of it in 2027 in fairly good shape (capwise) but by then miller is 34, horvat is 31 and kuzmenko is 30 and you've spent 4 years where making the playoffs is really the best you can aspire to

i just don't see how it's not better to admit defeat with this group (save pettersson and maybe hughes) and try to optimize for 2027 when your window actually opens

We are six months away from finding out if Pettersson is going to Tkachuk his way out of here or if he actually wants to stay.

 

[F A N]

A prime example of this is when they didn't trade Jannik Hansen at the 2016 NHL deadline despite being dogshit all season. His value had never been higher and plenty of teams would have given up a lot for their run. Instead they held onto him, and he went on a tear and almost singlehandedly won 3 games in California that they had no business winning and it cost the Canucks the lottery slot that the Leafs won which got them Matthews and we ended up with.... Juolevi. Which of course, brings us full circle.

We weren't going to win the lottery and get Matthews. We literally had the worst lottery luck of any team in history during that stretch of time. At best we maybe we drop behind Edmonton and get the 2nd best odds but then we might end up picking 3rd which we would have used on Puljujarvi or PLD and trade him for Subban.