Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[arttk]

chiarot was 24 and i literally wrote a whole paragraph about graves in a post you responded to. i'm trying to be charitable but if you're not going to discuss this in good faith i don't know why i should continue

i guess we just have to wait and see on bear and dermott

Chiarot averaged 14 min a game at 24.
Good faith, lol. You are the one arguing that top 4 should have less ice time than 20min.
Let’s try an example, Marino is a 2nd paring guy right? He averages 20ish min for his whole career in Pitts until this year where he is averaging 21min. Hell pick a top 4 guy from a random team and he’s averaging 20-21 min. K’andre miller, 2nd paring averages 21,20 and 22min. Tanev, Weegar averages 20min. Hell look at the islander top4, all of them averages 20min.


It seems like you are the one not acting in good faith.

 

[credulous]

Chiarot averaged 14 min a game at 24.
Good faith, lol. You are the one arguing that top 4 should have less ice time than 20min.
Let’s try an example, Marino is a 2nd paring guy right? He averages 20ish min for his whole career in Pitts until this year where he is averaging 21min. Hell pick a top 4 guy from a random team and he’s averaging 20-21 min. K’andre miller, 2nd paring averages 21,20 and 22min. Tanev, Weegar averages 20min. Hell look at the islander top4, all of them averages 20min.


It seems like you are the one not acting in good faith.

you're literally not reading what i write. it's not just about ice time. i've addressed this twice already

 

[rypper]

Allvin spoke to the media last in the middle of December. Contrast that to his predecessor who seemed to go for almost year between hits.

 

[sting101]

chiarot was 24 and i literally wrote a whole paragraph about graves in a post you responded to. i'm trying to be charitable but if you're not going to discuss this in good faith i don't know why i should continue

i guess we just have to wait and see on bear and dermott

Of course players can evolve. What a pointless argument

Just because you don't like the acquisitions doesn't prove "they are what they are because they are 25"

If thats the case Burrows MVP level Sedins Samuelsson Hansen Salo were not part of the best Canuck team in history, not to mention the hundreds of players over the years that prove your argument false

Bear and Dermott are cheap cost controlled for a 3rd and a 5th. Nothing wrong with trying to stabilize a porous D with 2 players who have plenty to give even if they aren't the long term top4 fixtures we need. If you got 2 players in those rounds that could play 20 and 17 min that's 2 wins. Clearly they were not "just about out of the league"

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yep.

They completely misread the room.

Absolutely gut punch of a 1st year for this management. Miller and Boeser extensions. HR lawsuit. How they handled Bruce.


I'm expecting Canucks HFboards to riot once we see the Horvat trade return... It's not going to be anywhere near what we expect.

Allvin spoke to the media last in the middle of December. Contrast that to his predecessor who seemed to go for almost year between hits.

True.

Allvin says as much as his predecessor even if his appearances are far more frequent.

"We have a top 32 middleaged core." is his recent mantra, that really means nothing.

 

[F A N]

subjectively, i don't really believe players improve much beyond their age 22 or 23 seasons. that's not to say they don't perform better but i mostly think it's a case of being put in better situations or just natural variance in performance. occaisonally you get a guy who finds 'another level' but they were mostly very good to begin with

Jumping into the discussion but I think that historically it has more to do with experience rather than age. Things have changed a bit with players reaching their peak earlier due to greater opportunities but historically players often break out between their 4th to 6th seasons in the NHL. Take the Sedins and Kesler. They did get better past their 22 or 23 year old seasons. Jovo reached his offensive prime past his 22 or 23 year old seasons as well.

More recently, Petey, I think is better this season at age 24 than he was in his previous seasons. Early on, players are more prone to inconsistency such as sophomore slump. For the star players who were good early you could argue that they merely sustained their peaks but overall just the added maturity and habits often lead to players being better in their mid to late 20s.

But yes of course it's rare for a player who completely suck at age 22 or 23 to blossom into a star. There is usually something there like talent. That's why you get those later blooming power forwards like Olli Jokinen and Bertuzzi. Even a player like Matthew Tkachuk, as much as I dislike him because he's not a Canuck, he took a major step forward at age 24. Then you have Dumoulin who Gillis and our scouts didn't like enough to jump at trading Kesler to Penguins at age 22. You can argue change in opportunity but how often a top 4 Dman is playing in the AHL at age 22/23 mostly due to lack of opportunity?

I am not completely disagreeing with you here nor am I completely disagreeing with @arttk . There are variables involved. There's a reason why sometimes a "change of scenery" works. It's not even about opportunity. But I do think players can get significantly better past their age 22/23 year old seasons. It's just human nature. If you worked extremely hard throughout your childhood life at some point you might want to take a break .After a certain time you might end up re-dedicating yourself. Sometimes people just figure things out. How many of us think that we can do a better job of studying at age 24-28 compared to when we were 18-23? I don't know about you but I've had lulls in my life where my work ethic has gone up and down. With age and experience you simply better know how to manage the times when your work ethic is lacking. That's why in any sports the true greats don't peak early and fall off. In hockey, the absolute physical peak might happen ~23 years old but for many players their game isn't there at that age?

Anyhow, the "top 4 Dman" bar isn't that high. There is a distinct difference between at #4 Dman and a #5 but few care for it. A lot of Dman can easily be a #4 Dman but not be anything special. Take Lachance and Malik. They were excellent besides Jovo but they weren't anything special on their own. Few talk about Hedican here but he was an excellent #4 Dman and few here cared for him. Schenn is a bottom pairing Dman on most teams but is he necessarily bad as a #4 here?

 

[racerjoe]

I just want to add to what @F A N was saying. I think often a change of scenery can be a change of systems and that can help them as well.

 

[sting101]

I just want to add to what @F A N was saying. I think often a change of scenery can be a change of systems and that can help them as well.

Yes and occasionally players just round out their games and with more responsibilities as others move on and become better players. Look at Josh Morrissey this year

My best year was at 28 when some teammates moved on. Not just production wise but because my defensive game had become so good and my efficiency in movement was dialed in. I could anticipate what players were gonna do and was able to capitalize on that as well as with my training i had become much stronger without much weight gained and won way more puck battles because of it

I always think about Pavel Datsyuk in this regard. Could always score but somewhere between his mid twenties to 27/28 he became one of the best all around players in the game. His impact had grown considerably. Instead of 15-17 minutes a game he grew to a plus 20 minute a game PPG Selke winner. The player he had become was considerably more impactful on the team and games. Obviously he was still Pavel Datsyuk

 

[Diogenes92]

Time to blow it up, JR and Allvin.

They better be making the preperations for a massive overhaul leading up to the trade deadline.

Anything less should be looked at as utter incompetence.

 

[TruGr1t]

Dumb.

 

[me2]

Time to blow it up, JR and Allvin.

They better be making the preperations for a massive overhaul leading up to the trade deadline.

Anything less should be looked at as utter incompetence.

Blow it up or commit and trade all the futures to fix the current team. Pick one.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Dumb.

Ya this has been obvious for awhile.

 

[Nucker101]

Was only a matter of time...





Article with quotes:

Jim Rutherford wishes his Penguins tenure 'had ended different'

It won’t be a homecoming for Jim Rutherford. That’s because he won’t be in Pittsburgh. When the Pittsburgh Penguins host the Vancouver Canucks at PPG Paints Arena on Tuesday, Rutherford will be elsewhere. His current employer, the Canucks, will be involved in scouting meetings, and, as president...

triblive.com

 

[MS]

Was only a matter of time...





Article with quotes:

Jim Rutherford wishes his Penguins tenure 'had ended different'

It won’t be a homecoming for Jim Rutherford. That’s because he won’t be in Pittsburgh. When the Pittsburgh Penguins host the Vancouver Canucks at PPG Paints Arena on Tuesday, Rutherford will be elsewhere. His current employer, the Canucks, will be involved in scouting meetings, and, as president...

triblive.com

In the full context of the quote, it's pretty obvious that Rutherford is saying he had wanted to finish his career in Pittsburgh and that he thought his multiple Cups there should probably have earned that chance. And he was disappointed at how it ended. Not that it was probably a mistake to come to Vancouver after that happened.

That said, it isn't the greatest look for your current President to be expressing that much fondness for another organization.

 

[mathonwy]

Dumb.

Complacency

 

[Breakers]

LOLOLOLOL

Wow I’m shocked a guy with an ego the size Everest in Rutherford who took a job at his age is now realizing he probably wants out. He had zero long term thinking and is doing the exact opposite of everything he said he would do.

Brutal hiring, absolutely brutal.
Said it on page 1 of his hiring thread why are we targeting a guy at his age who is on record as saying he was bored and wanted to get back in the league.

 

[Bubbles]

“I knew it was going to be a challenge,” Rutherford said. “We had some work to do to improve the team. It’s probably been a little bigger challenge than I expected in trying to unravel the cap situation here. The sooner we can do that, the sooner we can move forward and improve the team."

Another instance of saying one thing, and doing another.

Figuring out the cap situation should have been priority no. 1. Then they go and sign Boeser and Miller to those silly extensions.

Another year of the mushy middle.

 

[valkynax]

Was only a matter of time...





Article with quotes:

Jim Rutherford wishes his Penguins tenure 'had ended different'

It won’t be a homecoming for Jim Rutherford. That’s because he won’t be in Pittsburgh. When the Pittsburgh Penguins host the Vancouver Canucks at PPG Paints Arena on Tuesday, Rutherford will be elsewhere. His current employer, the Canucks, will be involved in scouting meetings, and, as president...

triblive.com

How long did it take for JEB to start bitching about stress? A few years, I recall?

Barely over a single year on the seat and Moleman is sounding more pathetic than JEB.

Wow, just...WOW.

I am speechless. Truly, truly speechless.

 

[Breakers]

“I knew it was going to be a challenge,” Rutherford said. “We had some work to do to improve the team. It’s probably been a little bigger challenge than I expected in trying to unravel the cap situation here. The sooner we can do that, the sooner we can move forward and improve the team."

Another instance of saying one thing, and doing another.

Figuring out the cap situation should have been priority no. 1. Then they go and sign Boeser and Miller to those silly extensions.

Another year of the mushy middle.

LOL
Him and Alvin spent $100 Million this offseason.

"How come we can't unravel the cap situation here"

I am dumbstruck at quotes like this.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

How long did it take for JEB to start bitching about stress? A few years, I recall?

Barely over a single year on the seat and Moleman is sounding more pathetic than JEB.

Wow, just...WOW.

This team and organization is a clusterf***.

 

[credulous]

i expected rutherford to come in for six months, put a new management team in place and then basically retire to north carolina or whereever he makes his offseason home and stay uninvolved other than acting as insulation between aquilini and the new management team. the fact that he's been so involved even now that alvin and his team are established is really perplexing

 

[rypper]

i expected rutherford to come in for six months, put a new management team in place and then basically retire to north carolina or whereever he makes his offseason home and stay uninvolved other than acting as insulation between aquilini and the new management team. the fact that he's been so involved even now that alvin and his team are established is really perplexing

Maybe that was his plan and the reason he's so involved day to day is because it takes that much to babysit Francesco.

 

[F A N]

A lot of talk has been made about the team prioritizing extending Miller over Horvat and downplaying signing Mikheyev etc. We can certainly talk about the merits of prioritizing Miller as we are doing here but I think it does shed light on whatever plan management has. A bigger issue for me is that I was expecting corresponding moves to be made and when it didn't happen this is what we have.

To me, there's just a trickle effect. The Canucks likely didn't see Horvat as a "difference maker," which is fair, despite Horvat's bubble playoff performances. The Canucks probably thought they could re-sign Horvat to around what they are willing to offer, which might also be fair if Horvat is spending a lot of time playing 3rd line C and spending some time on the 2nd unit PP.

This brings up my other point that I have said before. With Petey, Miller, and Horvat down the middle, you can have Kuzmenko, Mik, Garland, and Boeser slotting in as top 6 wingers. That means Hoglander and Pods (who I assume the team wanted to continue to develop) slots in on the 3rd or one of them on the 4th line depending on where Pearson plays. But with Miller on the wing, you have one of Kuzmenko, Mik, Garland, or Boeser on the 3rd line playing alongside Aman? Dickinson? Lazar? That can't be the plan and someone is not going to produce playing 3rd line minutes alongside Aman, Dickinson, or Lazar.

I really want to know what that potential Islanders deal was all about because the fall out of that was we added to the lineup but the only players who left were mostly 4th line players.

I think that is where the predicament lies. They extended Miller, re-signed Boeser, added Mikhayev and Kuzmenko (who they likely planned to extend) but didn't move out a big salary. They could have moved Miller, Boeser, Garland, and Myers for the best deal they could get but they didn't. Asset management is great and all but there is an opportunity cost to waiting.

 

[Cancuks]

Why is this management group so obsessed with "unravelling" the cap situation? So they can overpay more free agents? what's the big plan- pay Pastrnak $13 million a year?
Horvat should be traded for prospects/picks. Kuzmenko and Schenn as well. Although the latter two can be re-signed in the offseason if they are interested. The team should be able to deal Boeser and/or Garland in the offseason. Stillman can be buried in the minors. Myers and Pearson are UFAs after next season and might be able to fetch a return at next deadline. Of course, things would be a little easier if management hadn't blown their load on Miller and Boeser in the first place. Just imagine the rebuild we could have kickstarted with 3 or more first round picks in this draft and possibly multiple seconds.

 

[F A N]

i expected rutherford to come in for six months, put a new management team in place and then basically retire to north carolina or whereever he makes his offseason home and stay uninvolved other than acting as insulation between aquilini and the new management team. the fact that he's been so involved even now that alvin and his team are established is really perplexing

That was never my expectation. He made it clear that he wasn't retiring at the time he left the Penguins.

Remember that when he was brought in as GM of the Penguins he was expected to mentor Botterill. He ended up staying on as GM (which he earned) rather than moving up and allowing Botterill to become GM.