Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[rypper]

Can someone ask what Derek Clancey, Cammi Granato and Emilie Castonguay does? There's been little exposure since they got here.

Even seems like the GM barely shows his face.

My understanding is:

Emile Castonguay - Contracts/Cap
Cammi Granato - Scouting/Player development
Derek Clancy - Amateur/Pro scouting

 

[Ruthervin]

Miller is still moveable if the Canucks falter this season.

From what I understand, we aren't attached to Miller until *after* this season.

The plan for this management is to compete with this current core, but they still have the option of selling everyone for a true rebuild if they wanted to go that route. The only guy we are likely "stuck" with long term as of this writing, is OEL.

The reason why Management decided to proceed forward with this core is because doing a retool/rebuild likely would have been the end of Petey after two years (i.e. his RFA status + likely wanting out and pulling a Matt Tkachuk). Furthermore, engaging in a re-tool/rebuild would have likely wasted the years that we have Hughes, Demko, Boeser, Garland, etc. on contract for (all within this 4-5 year period). If the Canucks were to engage in a rebuild, Horvat (UFA at the end of this season) would likely want out as well.

So - the obvious plan for this management group was to try and compete over these next 4-5 years while still having an 'out' if things didn't pan out.

Thomas Drance is well aware of the fact that Management has a plan, but Drance, being the low life POS that he is, cares more about selling papers/catering to his subscriber base and creating controversy around the team. Drance, much like JD Burke and Rick Dhaliwal, is a cancer and menace to Canucks hockey and the sooner that he (they) leave, the better.

Sad to say, but Dan Riccio is one of the few legit good media guys that we have right now. Maybe Sat Shah as well. Rey Ferraro on Team 1040 was an absolute godsend as well. Was so sad to see Team 1040 go, with garbage 650 being the only thing left now.

 

[Hit the post]

Miller is still moveable if the Canucks falter this season.

From what I understand, we aren't attached to Miller until *after* this season.

The plan for this management is to compete with this current core, but they still have the option of selling everyone for a true rebuild if they wanted to go that route. The only guy we are likely "stuck" with long term as of this writing, is OEL.

The reason why Management decided to proceed forward with this core is because doing a retool/rebuild likely would have been the end of Petey after two years (i.e. his RFA status + likely wanting out and pulling a Matt Tkachuk). Furthermore, engaging in a re-tool/rebuild would have likely wasted the years that we have Hughes, Demko, Boeser, Garland, etc. on contract for (all within this 4-5 year period). If the Canucks were to engage in a rebuild, Horvat (UFA at the end of this season) would likely want out as well.

So - the obvious plan for this management group was to try and compete over these next 4-5 years while still having an 'out' if things didn't pan out.

Thomas Drance is well aware of the fact that Management has a plan, but Drance, being the low life POS that he is, cares more about selling papers/catering to his subscriber base and creating controversy around the team. Drance, much like JD Burke and Rick Dhaliwal, is a cancer and menace to Canucks hockey and the sooner that he (they) leave, the better.

Sad to say, but Dan Riccio is one of the few legit good media guys that we have right now. Maybe Sat Shah as well. Rey Ferraro on Team 1040 was an absolute godsend as well. Was so sad to see Team 1040 go, with garbage 650 being the only thing left now.

I'll give credit to Jim Benning for choosing not to honor Miller's NTC when he acquired him (as was Benning's right at the time); so yeah, his 'clauses' don't come into effect until after this season.

 

[Ruthervin]

I'll give credit to Jim Benning for choosing not to honor Miller's NTC when he acquired him (as was Benning's right at the time); so yeah, his 'clauses' don't come into effect until after this season.

You're correct. As many mistakes as Benning may have made while he was here, it's quite possible that him, his old management group, Rutherford, and Alvin, are just a *tad* smarter than a typical 25 year old "know it all" Canucks fan on here or on twitter.

And given that, combined with the fact that the contracts of our current core expire sometime between now and the Summer of 2027 (Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Horvat, etc.), anyone that thinks that retooling/rebuilding was a legit primary option for this club simply doesn't understand the business or are new/casual Canucks fans. Given that our core had just spent multiple years through a tough rebuild, there's no way that guys like Pettersson and Horvat would have been onboard for another re-tool/rebuild. Hit the reset button (retool or rebuild), and both Horvat and Petey walk when they become UFA's and RFA's respectively. Or - by the time the new core would start to emerge, guys like Demko and Hughes would be at the tail end of their contracts.

So, with that in mind, Management *clearly* had a plan to proceed forward with this group because it was literally the only realistic option that made sense. Rebuilding is still a Plan B that can still be executed if Plan A doesn't work (hence, the Miller deal and his clauses....or lack thereof). Guys like Drance and Dhaliwal are smart enough to know this (and do know this), but instead, choose to pander and cater to "the radical left" fanbase that live in both negativity and fear. Kudos to Drance however since he's building his own subscriber base (and doing extremely well I might add), but the guy clearly feigns objectivity with trolling and manipulation. He's a POS.

 

[Peter Griffin]

How do you improve this team when you, A) Have very little in terms of future assets to either trade to get better or have push for roster spots in the short term and B) Are currently maxed out capwise with a current group that’s only going to get more expensive and likely not much better.

Like him or not Drance makes a good point. As things currently stand, this year with cheaper contracts for Horvat and Miller in place, might be the best chance the Canucks have in the near future. That’s pretty depressing.

 

[gringo]

You're correct. As many mistakes as Benning may have made while he was here, it's quite possible that him, his old management group, Rutherford, and Alvin, are just a *tad* smarter than a typical 25 year old "know it all" Canucks fan on here or on twitter.

And given that, combined with the fact that the contracts of our current core expire sometime between now and the Summer of 2027 (Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Horvat, etc.), anyone that thinks that retooling/rebuilding was a legit primary option for this club simply doesn't understand the business or are new/casual Canucks fans. Given that our core had just spent multiple years through a tough rebuild, there's no way that guys like Pettersson and Horvat would have been onboard for another re-tool/rebuild. Hit the reset button (retool or rebuild), and both Horvat and Petey walk when they become UFA's and RFA's respectively. Or - by the time the new core would start to emerge, guys like Demko and Hughes would be at the tail end of their contracts.

So, with that in mind, Management *clearly* had a plan to proceed forward with this group because it was literally the only realistic option that made sense. Rebuilding is still a Plan B that can still be executed if Plan A doesn't work (hence, the Miller deal and his clauses....or lack thereof). Guys like Drance and Dhaliwal are smart enough to know this (and do know this), but instead, choose to pander and cater to "the radical left" fanbase that live in both negativity and fear. Kudos to Drance however since he's building his own subscriber base (and doing extremely well I might add), but the guy clearly feigns objectivity with trolling and manipulation. He's a POS.

I view things almost the complete opposite way in almost every regard

 

[TruGr1t]

I’d wager Miller is not currently moveable, realistically.

 

[Ruthervin]

I view things almost the complete opposite way in almost every regard

Fair enough.

I'm all ears if you care to elaborate.

p.s.____________I'll be heading out in a few minutes but will read your response (and other responses @Peter Griffin ). Might take me awhile to respond but I'm definitely reading. Have a great night guys.

 

[Fatass]

You're correct. As many mistakes as Benning may have made while he was here, it's quite possible that him, his old management group, Rutherford, and Alvin, are just a *tad* smarter than a typical 25 year old "know it all" Canucks fan on here or on twitter.

And given that, combined with the fact that the contracts of our current core expire sometime between now and the Summer of 2027 (Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Horvat, etc.), anyone that thinks that retooling/rebuilding was a legit primary option for this club simply doesn't understand the business or are new/casual Canucks fans. Given that our core had just spent multiple years through a tough rebuild, there's no way that guys like Pettersson and Horvat would have been onboard for another re-tool/rebuild. Hit the reset button (retool or rebuild), and both Horvat and Petey walk when they become UFA's and RFA's respectively. Or - by the time the new core would start to emerge, guys like Demko and Hughes would be at the tail end of their contracts.

So, with that in mind, Management *clearly* had a plan to proceed forward with this group because it was literally the only realistic option that made sense. Rebuilding is still a Plan B that can still be executed if Plan A doesn't work (hence, the Miller deal and his clauses....or lack thereof). Guys like Drance and Dhaliwal are smart enough to know this (and do know this), but instead, choose to pander and cater to "the radical left" fanbase that live in both negativity and fear. Kudos to Drance however since he's building his own subscriber base (and doing extremely well I might add), but the guy clearly feigns objectivity with trolling and manipulation. He's a POS.

SO we sign guys to big long term deals (Brock and Miller, with Bo up next) and continue to be terrible? That makes no sense. We absolutely needed to reset/retool and many posters here were calling for exactly that. We can still trade Miller (NTC doesn’t kick in until July 2023) and Bo should go too.

 

[Peter Griffin]

SO we sign guys to big long term deals (Brock and Miller, with Bo up next) and continue to be terrible? That makes no sense. We absolutely needed to reset/retool and many posters here were calling for exactly that. We can still trade Miller (NTC doesn’t kick in until July 2023) and Bo should go too.

It would make sense for a playoff contender to sign these deals, to maximize their potential contending window for the near term and then deal with the tail end of those contracts when their contention window has closed. But this management group has decided to undertake these contracts(Horvat still in question) when this team hasn’t proven anything and still has some major holes to fill with no conceivable way of doing so. It’s a bizarre situation they’ve put themselves in.

 

[gringo]

Fair enough.

I'm all ears if you care to elaborate.

p.s.____________I'll be heading out in a few minutes but will read your response (and other responses @Peter Griffin ). Might take me awhile to respond but I'm definitely reading. Have a great night guys.

Well to start I don’t understand how Drance or fans can be called “far left”? I like Drance and I’m pretty sure I’m not far left.

Fact is this franchise is run worse than the McDonalds on kingsway and Victoria. There, the ice cream and milkshake machine is always broke, they can’t hold onto their best staff, the lines always grow out of control, the food is cold and the equipment constantly malfunctions- just to give you and idea how things are usually going.

It starts at the top. When he fired Dave Nonis- which I had no problem with- Francesco Aquilini said making the playoffs was the standard and missing the playoffs were unacceptable. Well after 15 some odd years as the leader of this team he has exactly one good playoff run to show for it and he thought he was smarter than the guy who put that team together. 2007 Francesco needs to fire 2022 Francesco.

This team is directionless until then. It’s now not only acceptable to miss the playoffs there’s no plan to make the playoffs- at least a functioning one. And no plan for the future. This is a sham organization run by a condo developer for the benefits of his condos. there’s no standards and no excellence.

So disappointed in what I see. From so much hope after Benning was fired to now knowing the truth, it’ll be 2030 before we realistically have a shot at the cup.

 

[tantalum]

On the broad strokes I agree with Drance but in details it becomes hard to figure out how to (1) tear down and eliminate bad contracts and (2) protect everything you have in the system and picks and continue to build that system and picks.

The complete rebuild needs (1) to happen just as any other build you want to talk about given the dead weight and lack of value contracts on the roster. So (1) for this team with these contracts is almost impossible because (2) needs to also happen. So we get this unfortunate stasis.

Retrospect is moving Miller at the last deadline (my preference) and take a very hard look at doing the same with Horvat this past summer and upcoming deadline. But no one liked anynrumoured deals for Miller. They seemed lacklustre and surely something better was on the horizon. There wasn’t.

I wish they could be completely heartless and dealt with Boeser differently but I’m also glad they weren’t given the year he had. There is room for humanity. I said a day or two ago that perhaps the better way to do things would be suck up the horrendous poison pill qualifier and then look to move him close the deadline.

Myers seemingly nixing a deal really sucks. Another poison pill from Ol Jim.

No idea how you deal with the OEL poison pill. Or the Poolman one. Or Ferland. Or etc…..

I’m not yet going to say they don’t have a plan or that they’ve been useless or bad because the task they have is about as monumental of one that ANY franchise has ever seen. I honestly think there is no plan that is actually palatable. They just need to figure out what pile of shit they are going to try to eat. I think it’s the stasis for a couple years one.

 

[Hit the post]

Well to start I don’t understand how Drance or fans can be called “far left”? I like Drance and I’m pretty sure I’m not far left.

Fact is this franchise is run worse than the McDonalds on kingsway and Victoria. There, the ice cream and milkshake machine is always broke, they can’t hold onto their best staff, the lines always grow out of control, the food is cold and the equipment constantly malfunctions- just to give you and idea how things are usually going.

It starts at the top. When he fired Dave Nonis- which I had no problem with- Francesco Aquilini said making the playoffs was the standard and missing the playoffs were unacceptable. Well after 15 some odd years as the leader of this team he has exactly one good playoff run to show for it and he thought he was smarter than the guy who put that team together. 2007 Francesco needs to fire 2022 Francesco.

This team is directionless until then. It’s now not only acceptable to miss the playoffs there’s no plan to make the playoffs- at least a functioning one. And no plan for the future. This is a sham organization run by a condo developer for the benefits of his condos. there’s no standards and no excellence.

So disappointed in what I see. From so much hope after Benning was fired to now knowing the truth, it’ll be 2030 before we realistically have a shot at the cup.

That's a problem in most restaurants here (not just fast food restaurants). Shortage of workers (or rather shortage of people wanting to do that type of work).

 

[credulous]

miller is probably moveable but not for cheap/young talent anymore. if there's a deal it'll involve some toxic contracts coming back in return

 

[TruGr1t]

On the broad strokes I agree with Drance but in details it becomes hard to figure out how to (1) tear down and eliminate bad contracts and (2) protect everything you have in the system and picks and continue to build that system and picks.

The complete rebuild needs (1) to happen just as any other build you want to talk about given the dead weight and lack of value contracts on the roster. So (1) for this team with these contracts is almost impossible because (2) needs to also happen. So we get this unfortunate stasis.

Retrospect is moving Miller at the last deadline (my preference) and take a very hard look at doing the same with Horvat this past summer and upcoming deadline. But no one liked anynrumoured deals for Miller. They seemed lacklustre and surely something better was on the horizon. There wasn’t.

I wish they could be completely heartless and dealt with Boeser differently but I’m also glad they weren’t given the year he had. There is room for humanity. I said a day or two ago that perhaps the better way to do things would be suck up the horrendous poison pill qualifier and then look to move him close the deadline.

Myers seemingly nixing a deal really sucks. Another poison pill from Ol Jim.

No idea how you deal with the OEL poison pill. Or the Poolman one. Or Ferland. Or etc…..

I’m not yet going to say they don’t have a plan or that they’ve been useless or bad because the task they have is about as monumental of one that ANY franchise has ever seen. I honestly think there is no plan that is actually palatable. They just need to figure out what pile of shit they are going to try to eat. I think it’s the stasis for a couple years one.

You sort of nailed it. It's pretty straightforward. Trade Miller, don't resign Boeser. Pearson might even have gone pre-deadline last year. Go into the summer with as much cap space as possible and try to take advantage of the rest of the league being capped out. Stop stockpiling overpaid wingers and #4 defensemen.

 

[Javaman]

Management made a decision. It's not a decision I agree with but we're stuck with it. While I'm going to hope for the best, I'm not going to fake enthusiasm.

 

[Diogenes92]

I'm officially annoyed with Boeser and management's decision to re-sign him.

He is slow, he is weak on the boards, he is often injured, he is constantly behind the play, his shot has a slow release and is telegraphed (a shocking difference from rookie Boeser). The shot isn't really all that accurate or developed either. Very often the play dies on Boeser's stick and he's too slow to forecheck or win it back. Jesus christ man prove me wrong. To top it off he somehow has leeched a point per game to start the season - which unfortunately may justify Boudreau's over usage of such an over-rsted player.

He is without a doubt management's biggest blunder.

Well...he did break his back in his rookie season, so in some sense you have to feel for the guy.

He hasn't been the same since. He's shown glimpses, but never returned to that dynamic all-world scoring ability.

 

[Diogenes92]

You're correct. As many mistakes as Benning may have made while he was here, it's quite possible that him, his old management group, Rutherford, and Alvin, are just a *tad* smarter than a typical 25 year old "know it all" Canucks fan on here or on twitter.

And given that, combined with the fact that the contracts of our current core expire sometime between now and the Summer of 2027 (Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Horvat, etc.), anyone that thinks that retooling/rebuilding was a legit primary option for this club simply doesn't understand the business or are new/casual Canucks fans. Given that our core had just spent multiple years through a tough rebuild, there's no way that guys like Pettersson and Horvat would have been onboard for another re-tool/rebuild. Hit the reset button (retool or rebuild), and both Horvat and Petey walk when they become UFA's and RFA's respectively. Or - by the time the new core would start to emerge, guys like Demko and Hughes would be at the tail end of their contracts.

So, with that in mind, Management *clearly* had a plan to proceed forward with this group because it was literally the only realistic option that made sense. Rebuilding is still a Plan B that can still be executed if Plan A doesn't work (hence, the Miller deal and his clauses....or lack thereof). Guys like Drance and Dhaliwal are smart enough to know this (and do know this), but instead, choose to pander and cater to "the radical left" fanbase that live in both negativity and fear. Kudos to Drance however since he's building his own subscriber base (and doing extremely well I might add), but the guy clearly feigns objectivity with trolling and manipulation. He's a POS.

What tough rebuild? There was never a rebuild. Believe it or not that was Benning trying to compete. Worst GM in Canucks history.

Drance is willing to say what many other intelligent fans have known for years. This core can't get it done. They will forever be toiling in mediocrity.

The truth hurts. You can thank Jimbo and AQ for the past, present, and future misery. OEL was the perfect parting gift from an Old Boys club arrogant slob.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

What tough rebuild? There was never a rebuild. Believe it or not that was Benning trying to compete. Worst GM in Canucks history.

Drance is willing to say what many other intelligent fans have known for years. This core can't get it done. They will forever be toiling in mediocrity.

The truth hurts. You can thank Jimbo and AQ for the past, present, and future misery. OEL was the perfect parting gift from an Old Boys club arrogant slob.

I really cannot understand why such a mediocre group of players are deified in this market. Most cores don’t win anything. It’s not hard to believe ours won’t. They’re so far behind the 8-ball.

 

[bossram]

It's sad though that all you have to do is read the replies to that hit on twitter and see that a lot still dont' get it.

Oh for sure. Canucks fans get the team they asked for, unfortunately.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Oh for sure. Canucks fans get the team they asked for, unfortunately.

I really hope they get why they need from our next fruitless decade.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

But no one liked anynrumoured deals for Miller.

I'm officially annoyed with Boeser and management's decision to re-sign him.

He is slow, he is weak on the boards, he is often injured, he is constantly behind the play, his shot has a slow release and is telegraphed (a shocking difference from rookie Boeser). The shot isn't really all that accurate or developed either. Very often the play dies on Boeser's stick and he's too slow to forecheck or win it back. Jesus christ man prove me wrong. To top it off he somehow has leeched a point per game to start the season - which unfortunately may justify Boudreau's over usage of such an over-rsted player.

He is without a doubt management's biggest blunder.

Bolded out the parts that are not true for you.

Im not sure about his shot. Last season when BB came back we saw him use his shot like he should and it looked very much intact. This year? Who knows.

 

[tantalum]

You sort of nailed it. It's pretty straightforward. Trade Miller, don't resign Boeser. Pearson might even have gone pre-deadline last year. Go into the summer with as much cap space as possible and try to take advantage of the rest of the league being capped out. Stop stockpiling overpaid wingers and #4 defensemen.

But is it that straightforward.

So the best Miller trade that seemed to maybe be on the table was Chytil and Schneider. I’d likely take that right now but many didn’t like that. But in that deal you actually have over $5 mil in potential cap commitment coming back (Chytil is around $2.5 on his deals and the bonuses on Schneider etc). A Miller trade doesn’t really come with a lot of cap to exploit afterwards.

Boeser…this is tricky. No human business ya you walk away. I don’t think they actually could of and survived another huge PR shit storm. Not after everything that happened before it. Rock and hard place.

While those are issues, the real contract issues are the three on the back end. It doesn’t really matter much of what you do anywhere else until you find your way out of Myers, OEL and Poolman. And I’m not sure how they do that.

One way may be to build up the wing a bit to maybe give you some more options to entice a team. Can you add Hogs as a sweetener instead of a pick? Can you send Poolman out packing with Garland? Can you get enough out of Myers to move him for a lesser prospect/pick.

It’s the last couple of t paragraphs here which is why I’m not on the panic train with this management. I think they have potential things to explore that the work they did on the wings can very much help.

But yes I wish the Miller extension never happened and I really do hope a Horvat one also doesn’t happen. I just don’t think he’ll be worth the deal and this team is in desperate need for value deals moving forward. They don’t need OK deals and bad deals anymore they need value.

 

[4Twenty]

Whatever way they chose they needed to actually push the pedal down. They’re not. They tried coasting on Bruce there it is and trying to serve two masters.


I think taking a zero cap return on Garland was obvious. I thought using picks and Hoglander and Rathbone to dump the Dickinson, Pearson types was probably possible.

Signing Mikheyev and Kuzmenko on top of the above was a total misread. There had to be a plan.

It doesn’t feel like a plan.

 

[andora]

Bang on right here. Another camp is the folks who have pretty much thrown in the towel on being a contender, and are like “there was no good option, so meh.”

I do believe if you’d been aggressive last season pre-deadline there was still a window with this core. I don’t think it exists anymore, but it was there however small.

As Drance said, the work by “new management” this off-season pretty much slammed the door on it. So I guess I’ve become the latter. I’d just rather get this farce over with and move onto the next window.

I think the only two players that could have been moved last year pre deadline were horvat and miller - i guess that would have been aggressive enough - but all the other mid tier crap i dont think could have been moved without adding incentive to - and those deals are available anytime

I do think one of them should have been moved.. and outside getting a contributing young defenceman i am not sure why it extends the window

Ya, that quote stood out to me as well. But it’s also extremely presumptuous and generally ignores the market realities this summer. It’s hard to say what kind of defensemen or other players were available via trade this summer, but we do know the market was very poor for players with term, so it was going to be extremely difficult to make room for any sizeable /impactful additions.

I am not sure why a bad start means they have no plan? They could have somethimg basic, something extensive, or even an A,B, C all drafted up.. or they could have the most detailed elaborate plan in history laying on the boardroom table - an 0-5 start doesnt make whatever disappear