Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[bossram]

a large segment of the fanbase can't handle any suggestion that pettersson, hughes, horvat, miller and demko aren't superstars

Yep. They don't have the truly elite talent that you need, like a Mackinnon, Makar, Hedman, McDavid, etc.

Maybe Petey/Hughes/Demko can get there. But they aren't there right now. And if you don't have that piece, you need almost impeccable roster management elsewhere to win a la the St. Louis Blues.

And they clearly do not have impeccable roster management.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

The signs were there going back to 2013. Most of us on HF knew some red flags were apparent when the normally calculated and shrewd GM at the time made all sorts of weird moves and eventually hired Tortorella. He had made some eventual moves aimed at retooling but was promptly fired by a narcissistic control freak who tried to placate the fanbase by bringing in the former heart-and-soul captain to justify going for the playoffs. What transpired after this was not surprising. Hell, the owner even controlled what music was to be played and not played at games. The guy is a massive control freak that cannot stay out of the kitchen.

Jim Rutherford is here to remain employed in the NHL in some capacity but it wouldn't surprise me to see him eventually resign due to the internal circus act.


Watching how this goofball handled this was telling.
"If you had a president I wouldn't be doing this." You had 5 years to fill the roll you jerk.


Edit: Look at the amount of people defending the organization and putting down Drance on his constructive take

 

[Melvin]

The funny thing is, Rutherford preached making these types of moves. Difficult decisions. Moves that wouldn’t be popular with the fanbase. They then proceed to make the “safest” moves possible.

It’s obviously too early to drag them through the coals, 5 games isn’t enough of
a sample size. But this is looking exactly like the team Rutherford said relied too much on Demko bailing them out and aside from adding Mikheyev, who I think will be a good addition, they’ve done nothing to address the situation and arguably have put themselves in a worse position going forward by moving another 2nd and committing even more salary longterm.

Concur. They said all the right things. I am disappointed as well. I think they are maybe a 5/10 so far, which is much above Bennings consistently firm 0 but still they seem scared to actually pull the trigger on all the “unpopular” moves that they talked about

 

[4Twenty]

Shit even some of the posters skewering me all off-season for my commentary on management now think Drance “nailed it”.


To quote Botch “life moves fast”.

 

[Hit the post]

Concur. They said all the right things. I am disappointed as well. I think they are maybe a 5/10 so far, which is much above Bennings consistently firm 0 but still they seem scared to actually pull the trigger on all the “unpopular” moves that they talked about

JR flushed the toilet after using it. He's already ahead of Jim Benning (who never bothers to even wash his hands after doing the deed).

 

[Hodgy]

Shit even some of the posters skewering me all off-season for my commentary on management now think Drance “nailed it”.


To quote Botch “life moves fast”.

It's more nuanced than that though. Like I have said from the very beginning, I have always wanted a rebuild. I am patient, and relatively young, and would much prefer that this team was built the right way. So I would be totally fine with gutting the whole team and rebuilding, or even trying a 2-3 year rebuild, and if necessary, then also trading Hughes and Pettersson if things don't look like they will work. I'm fine with that path. But I am patient and like to follow prospects and their development.

When listening to Drance's rant it seemed like his preferred option, at least to some extent, was the above rebuild. And I think this is probably a false dichotomy since I don't think a full rebuild was ever really a practical option, either in the sense that it would never be approved by ownership, or in the sense that most (almost all?) management teams wouldn't do a full rebuild where: (1) their best players are all 23-26 (i.e., Hughes, Pettersson and Demko) and have already suffered years of mismanagement with terrible results to show for it; and (2); they are operating in a flat cap reality where players on none ELC or bargain contracts are not valued highly.

So, ya sure, its easy to say that you'd prefer the rebuilt. But I really don't think it was an option.

So, the question then becomes a quick "re-tool" or to try to compete immediately while your best players are in their primes, and to some extent, are cost controlled. And this debate has been had ad nauseum on here so I don't really want to get into specifics. Suffice to say, neither of these options are particularly good nor have great prospects for success. So, if Drance's criticism of management is rooted in his belief they should have tried the "re-tool" (e.g., his reference to a "bold" move in the summer") then I stand by all of my previous criticisms or comments on this option.

So, in summary, its refreshing to hear criticism of management, it also doesn't mean that there was some much better alternative to the strategy they have chosen - which is fundamentally something you and I seem to disagree with. Of course, with that said, the implementation of their strategy (e.g., the contracts to Miller and Boeser) is certainly something that can be critiqued.

 

[TruGr1t]

a large segment of the fanbase can't handle any suggestion that pettersson, hughes, horvat, miller and demko aren't superstars

Bang on right here. Another camp is the folks who have pretty much thrown in the towel on being a contender, and are like “there was no good option, so meh.”

I do believe if you’d been aggressive last season pre-deadline there was still a window with this core. I don’t think it exists anymore, but it was there however small.

As Drance said, the work by “new management” this off-season pretty much slammed the door on it. So I guess I’ve become the latter. I’d just rather get this farce over with and move onto the next window.

 

[Melvin]

Shit even some of the posters skewering me all off-season for my commentary on management now think Drance “nailed it”.


To quote Botch “life moves fast”.

What did Drance say?

a large segment of the fanbase can't handle any suggestion that pettersson, hughes, horvat, miller and demko aren't superstars

I'm surprised you removed Boeser from this group.

People were still talking about Boeser as some kind of rising star 9 months ago.

 

[4Twenty]

It's more nuanced than that though. Like I have said from the very beginning, I have always wanted a rebuild. I am patient, and relatively young, and would much prefer that this team was built the right way. So I would be totally fine with gutting the whole team and rebuilding, or even trying a 2-3 year rebuild, and if necessary, then also trading Hughes and Pettersson if things don't look like they will work. I'm fine with that path. But I am patient and like to follow prospects and their development.

When listening to Drance's rant it seemed like his preferred option, at least to some extent, was the above rebuild. And I think this is probably a false dichotomy since I don't think a full rebuild was ever really a practical option, either in the sense that it would never be approved by ownership, or in the sense that most (almost all?) management teams wouldn't do a full rebuild where: (1) their best players are all 23-26 (i.e., Hughes, Pettersson and Demko) and have already suffered years of mismanagement with terrible results to show for it; and (2); they are operating in a flat cap reality where players on none ELC or bargain contracts are not valued highly.

So, ya sure, its easy to say that you'd prefer the rebuilt. But I really don't think it was an option.

So, the question then becomes a quick "re-tool" or to try to compete immediately while your best players are in their primes, and to some extent, are cost controlled. And this debate has been had ad nauseum on here so I don't really want to get into specifics. Suffice to say, neither of these options are particularly good nor have great prospects for success. So, if Drance's criticism of management is rooted in his belief they should have tried the "re-tool" (e.g., his reference to a "bold" move in the summer") then I stand by all of my previous criticisms or comments on this option.

So, in summary, its refreshing to hear criticism of management, it also doesn't mean that there was some much better alternative to the strategy they have chosen - which is fundamentally something you and I seem to disagree with. Of course, with that said, the implementation of their strategy (e.g., the contracts to Miller and Boeser) is certainly something that can be critiqued.

The line from that Drance piece that rings in my mind and I’ve repeated it to you for awhile here was: “the time for bold moves was this summer”.

I also preferred rebuild but I’ve been pretty explicit that whatever way they chose they needed to pursue it aggressively. Drance hammered on that point.

@Melvin ^^^^

The video is on Donnie/Dhali YouTube if you’re like me and don’t do the Twitter

 

[credulous]

What did Drance say?

that this year is the canucks peak and it only gets worse from here. also that miller and oel are owed 15 mil going forward and they're both complementary pieces, not core players.

I'm surprised you removed Boeser from this group.

People were still talking about Boeser as some kind of rising star 9 months ago.

boeser is definitely in the 'protected' group for a lot of fans but you'd have to be delusional to think he's a superstar at this point. even they would admit he's not a superstar even if they'd like to blame it on tough personal circumstances or untimely injury

 

[4Twenty]

I like Brock the person. I still wear my “the flow” hoodie often but going 3 years after last season was a clear mistake from day one. One year at his QO-minus-15% arbitration rate would’ve been preferable and even one year at his QO was a much better bet than what they’ve done here.

 

[racerjoe]

The start to the season just makes me want to laugh. Its all you really can do. We aren't this bad.

My thoughts on this team really haven't changed, I still think we are a bubble team, still think the moves made in the summer were good in a vacuum even if they were not what I would do.

I don't think the story has been written on this team... this season maybe, its only the start, but its still a big hole to dig yourself into.

Not to give anyone an excuse, but feel bad for Beoser, just coming back from injury I think it would have been smarter to ease him in. Same with Hughes. While with Boeser I think we had the depth to ease him in, with Hughes on the back end we just don't... we are just built so terribly.

Just my musings.

 

[Vector]

What did Drance say?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

JR flushed the toilet after using it. He's already ahead of Jim Benning (who never bothers to even wash his hands after doing the deed).

or his fanny

 

[PG Canuck]

a large segment of the fanbase can't handle any suggestion that pettersson, hughes, horvat, miller and demko aren't superstars

I think Pettersson and Demko are the closest to becoming those players, but still need more from both yet.

The others…waste of time expecting them to be stars.

Hughes being our #1 defenseman just isn’t ever going to be enough, IMO. I say this with no idea how his analytics look, mind you, but when I look at Makar play, and then Hughes play, they aren’t even in the same universe.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Bang on right here. Another camp is the folks who have pretty much thrown in the towel on being a contender, and are like “there was no good option, so meh.”

I do believe if you’d been aggressive last season pre-deadline there was still a window with this core. I don’t think it exists anymore, but it was there however small.

As Drance said, the work by “new management” this off-season pretty much slammed the door on it. So I guess I’ve become the latter. I’d just rather get this farce over with and move onto the next window.

I one hundred percent wish they would burn it to the ground and start over. Sometimes things are just broken. I believe this is one of them. Most cores come and go without a Stanley Cup on most teams. Ours just looks like it’s going to be one of them and you can see it early. Life sucks sometimes. Move on. That’s why I don’t find that it this effective threat when certain posters warn me that too much rebuilding will have our star players asking for trades. I don’t care if they go. I believe they are a burned core. And I want to start the growing pains of something promising and unencumbered, immediately. LFG!!!!! But yeah, obviously will never happen. Go Canucks, go.

 

[strattonius]

I'm officially annoyed with Boeser and management's decision to re-sign him.

He is slow, he is weak on the boards, he is often injured, he is constantly behind the play, his shot has a slow release and is telegraphed (a shocking difference from rookie Boeser). The shot isn't really all that accurate or developed either. Very often the play dies on Boeser's stick and he's too slow to forecheck or win it back. Jesus christ man prove me wrong. To top it off he somehow has leeched a point per game to start the season - which unfortunately may justify Boudreau's over usage of such an over-rsted player.

He is without a doubt management's biggest blunder.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I'm officially annoyed with Boeser and management's decision to re-sign him.

He is slow, he is weak on the boards, he is often injured, he is constantly behind the play, his shot has a slow release and is telegraphed (a shocking difference from rookie Boeser). The shot isn't really all that accurate or developed either. Very often the play dies on Boeser's stick and he's too slow to forecheck or win it back. Jesus christ man prove me wrong. To top it off he somehow has leeched a point per game to start the season - which unfortunately may justify Boudreau's over usage of such an over-rsted player.

He is without a doubt management's biggest blunder.

Yeah but Petey and Hughesie and Demmer would be bummed without Bessie.

 

[racerjoe]

I think Pettersson and Demko are the closest to becoming those players, but still need more from both yet.

The others…waste of time expecting them to be stars.

Hughes being our #1 defenseman just isn’t ever going to be enough, IMO. I say this with no idea how his analytics look, mind you, but when I look at Makar play, and then Hughes play, they aren’t even in the same universe.

To be fair, I think Makar is the best player in the game.

 

[me2]

The number of points gor management to feel safe about making the about the playoffs is 96 points. With 77 games left that is something like

47-30-0 or 42-25-10.

Maybe a very low wildcard year of 92 points and get lucky

45 -32-0 or 40-27-10.


And just for fun

30-47-0 62 points
27-40-10 66 points

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Can someone ask what Derek Clancey, Cammi Granato and Emilie Castonguay does? There's been little exposure since they got here.

Even seems like the GM barely shows his face.

 

[Hit the post]

To be fair, I think Makar is the best player in the game.

Considering the "environment" Hughes was in (Travis Green, linemates, etc.,), I'm surprised he's developed as well as he has.

 

[TruGr1t]

Can someone ask what Derek Clancey, Cammi Granato and Emilie Castonguay does? There's been little exposure since they got here.

Even seems like the GM barely shows his face.

I don’t even know what Allvin does … he shows up occasionally and tosses around a bunch of word salad that means very little.

Rutherford is out there, but he seems to change his story twice in the process of the same interview.

There was some buzz around them identifying Joshua and Aman, though. At least early on that’s looking possibly like an improvement on the bottom six talent identified by the last regime.

 

[Hodgy]

The line from that Drance piece that rings in my mind and I’ve repeated it to you for awhile here was: “the time for bold moves was this summer”.

I also preferred rebuild but I’ve been pretty explicit that whatever way they chose they needed to pursue it aggressively. Drance hammered on that point.

@Melvin ^^^^

The video is on Donnie/Dhali YouTube if you’re like me and don’t do the Twitter

Ya, that quote stood out to me as well. But it’s also extremely presumptuous and generally ignores the market realities this summer. It’s hard to say what kind of defensemen or other players were available via trade this summer, but we do know the market was very poor for players with term, so it was going to be extremely difficult to make room for any sizeable /impactful additions.

 

[rypper]

It's funny how most of the fanbase continually said Drance was "too negative". Until it became too apparent that all of his criticisms were correct.

It's sad though that all you have to do is read the replies to that hit on twitter and see that a lot still dont' get it.