Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[Fatass]

It would make sense for a playoff contender to sign these deals, to maximize their potential contending window for the near term and then deal with the tail end of those contracts when their contention window has closed. But this management group has decided to undertake these contracts(Horvat still in question) when this team hasn’t proven anything and still has some major holes to fill with no conceivable way of doing so. It’s a bizarre situation they’ve put themselves in.

Maybe JR/Allvin are following directions from above?

 

[tantalum]

Whatever way they chose they needed to actually push the pedal down. They’re not. They tried coasting on Bruce there it is and trying to serve two masters.


I think taking a zero cap return on Garland was obvious. I thought using picks and Hoglander and Rathbone to dump the Dickinson, Pearson types was probably possible.

Signing Mikheyev and Kuzmenko on top of the above was a total misread. There had to be a plan.

It doesn’t feel like a plan.

Most of those things you listed can still happen though and actually be made more palatable by having the Kuzmenko and Mikheyev additions.

 

[hookshott]

It would make sense for a playoff contender to sign these deals, to maximize their potential contending window for the near term and then deal with the tail end of those contracts when their contention window has closed. But this management group has decided to undertake these contracts(Horvat still in question) when this team hasn’t proven anything and still has some major holes to fill with no conceivable way of doing so. It’s a bizarre situation they’ve put themselves in.

Horvat is on pace for 65 goals this season (4 goals in 5 games)...he should have been resigned and likely will be. However, they should have left Miller alone during the summer and see what this season would bring. If he was great again, well maybe look into it...but if not, get rid of him at the trade deadline for picks and use his cap hit next summer.

 

[tyhee]

...

It’s obviously too early to drag them through the coals, 5 games isn’t enough of
a sample size. ...

That's only true though if one is going to judge their moves by how the team does in 2022-2023. I had trouble this summer accepting they were actually considering signing Miller long term and was shocked the week it happened. Many criticized the Boeser and Mikhayev signings when they were made.

FWIW, I'd rather have a longer term view than how the 2022-2023 season goes. If the Canucks turn things around and make the playoffs, that doesn't make the Miller signing the right thing to have done.

So yes, it is premature to judge the 2022-2023 season, but I don't think it is wrong to criticize individual moves or the general direction they've taken as being short-sighted.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Has Mikeyev ever played C? Would be an interesting option if putting EP and JT back together.

 

[Hit the post]

Has Mikeyev ever played C? Would be an interesting option if putting EP and JT back together.

heh, if not, you can't call it "the three players best as wingers" line.

 

[Ruthervin]

How do you improve this team when you, A) Have very little in terms of future assets to either trade to get better or have push for roster spots in the short term and B) Are currently maxed out capwise with a current group that’s only going to get more expensive and likely not much better.

Like him or not Drance makes a good point. As things currently stand, this year with cheaper contracts for Horvat and Miller in place, might be the best chance the Canucks have in the near future. That’s pretty depressing.

What I would do, if the Canucks bounce back and make the playoffs this year, is do one of the following:

1) At the end of the Summer, make another "Canucks-Coyotes" type deal (with the Yotes or another team) in which we get add sweeteners to get rid of Myers, Pearson, and Poolman. With that freed up money, we go hard after a UFA d-man and patch up other areas that may need patching. If we choose NOT to do this, then pray that one of Boeser or Garland re-ups their value so that we can move them for a pick at the end of the season. Use that money to re-sign Kuzemko. A year later, replace the contracts of Myers and Pearson with better value. Don't let Horvat walk.

2) Do whatever you can to get Chychrun. I know that sounds crazy but one big reason why the Canucks are losing games right now is because: A) OEL-Myers are being exposed since they have to take on the toughest match-ups on the team. B) As much as I love Schenn, he doesn't help elevate Hughes or minimize Hughes' weaknesses in the manner that a Chris Tanev. Do whatever you can to bring in Chychrun (i.e. Hoglander/Boeser, Rathbone, 1st rounder, Lekkerimaki, Ferland, Poolman) and now all of a sudden, you have a defensive pairing of

Chychrun-Hughes
OEL-Myers

which, while not ideal, would be a massive step up from what we have now and could be a major rippling effect.

Don't let Horvat walk.

3) IF the Canucks have a bad home stand here, blow it up.........and by blow it up, I'm not talking about just Horvat, Garland, and Miller. I'm talking about Horvat, Garland, Miller, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, and Kuzemko. Get elite prospects and/or picks for the above, and go hard after Bedard via Tank. Why move Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes you may ask? Because - if you do a rebuild, Petey won't want to be here when he becomes an RFA anyways. And if you did a rebuild, Hughes and Demko will be at or close to contract expiration once the team got competitive again. On top of the above, weaponize cap space and take in bad contracts (2 years or less) with picks incoming our way. I would avoid 3 years or plus.

 

[MarkMM]

You're correct. As many mistakes as Benning may have made while he was here, it's quite possible that him, his old management group, Rutherford, and Alvin, are just a *tad* smarter than a typical 25 year old "know it all" Canucks fan on here or on twitter.

And given that, combined with the fact that the contracts of our current core expire sometime between now and the Summer of 2027 (Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Horvat, etc.), anyone that thinks that retooling/rebuilding was a legit primary option for this club simply doesn't understand the business or are new/casual Canucks fans. Given that our core had just spent multiple years through a tough rebuild, there's no way that guys like Pettersson and Horvat would have been onboard for another re-tool/rebuild. Hit the reset button (retool or rebuild), and both Horvat and Petey walk when they become UFA's and RFA's respectively. Or - by the time the new core would start to emerge, guys like Demko and Hughes would be at the tail end of their contracts.

So, with that in mind, Management *clearly* had a plan to proceed forward with this group because it was literally the only realistic option that made sense. Rebuilding is still a Plan B that can still be executed if Plan A doesn't work (hence, the Miller deal and his clauses....or lack thereof). Guys like Drance and Dhaliwal are smart enough to know this (and do know this), but instead, choose to pander and cater to "the radical left" fanbase that live in both negativity and fear. Kudos to Drance however since he's building his own subscriber base (and doing extremely well I might add), but the guy clearly feigns objectivity with trolling and manipulation. He's a POS.

Er, I think Rutherford's track record gives him the benefit of the doubt, Alvin is too soon to say, but it is blindingly clear than a typical 25 year-old know-it-all easily would have done better than that brain dead Benning. He was catastrophically stupid, and it wasn't hindsight, year after year the average fan here made better calls. Now the reality is we need more than okay management, our management needs to be excellent to turn this team around, because Benning left us in a state that we're likely crippled for 3 if not 5 years.

I do believe Rutherford has a plan, and he's spoken fairly transparently about it, and like others here have said, it can play out both ways. The way they probably saw it goes something like this:

1.) Demko, as well as Hughes and Petersson provide a solid foundation that when added with Horvat and Boeser provide key pieces that are extremely hard to get (and that you might not get if you try to tank all over again), so let's see what we can do with that. The problem is that OEL, Myers, Poolman, Dickinson, etc, just crippled our cap and the ability to provide the wraparound talent needed to make something of our core.

2.) Most of those with the exception of OEL could just be waited out over the next 2-3 years which would coincide with a jump in the cap, so if we could keep our core together, not add any more anchor contracts, incrementally improve the team so that we get playoff experience and let the likes of Podkolzin and Hoglander mature, then we could find ourselves in 2-3 years with our core intact, our young talent more experienced, more cap space and if we hold on to our picks and draft shrewdly, the beginnings of a pipeline.

3.) If the assumptions above are off, and our foundation is too rotten and we're likely not going to hold on to someone like Petersson, then, yeah, sell off everything and re-start.

1 & 2 is the hoped for scenario, but #3 might be forced upon us if they don't turn this ship around.

 

[bandwagonesque]

At the end of the Summer, make another "Canucks-Coyotes" type deal (with the Yotes or another team) in which we get add sweeteners to get rid of Myers, Pearson, and Poolman.

Myers has a salary of $1M next season and Pearson's is $2.75M. As long as Myers is still playing at a 2nd-pairing level you could probably move both players to Arizona for a modest asset.

 

[Vector]

Myers has a salary of $1M next season and Pearson's is $2.75M. As long as Myers is still playing at a 2nd-pairing level you could probably move both players to Arizona for a modest asset.

Well, not Arizona since I doubt Myers would waive his limited NTCs to play in a college rink and I don’t think Coyotes will actually even try and compete next season but the general point is correct.

 

[Ruthervin]

What tough rebuild? There was never a rebuild. Believe it or not that was Benning trying to compete. Worst GM in Canucks history.

Drance is willing to say what many other intelligent fans have known for years. This core can't get it done. They will forever be toiling in mediocrity.

The truth hurts. You can thank Jimbo and AQ for the past, present, and future misery. OEL was the perfect parting gift from an Old Boys club arrogant slob.

Benning wasn't trying to "compete" from 2015 to 2018 ('compete' as in win a cup). Him and Linden were realistic as to where this club was after they lost to the Flames in 2015. What he wanted to do was get the young guys to compete so that they could make the playoffs and get playoff exposure so that it would aid in their development. He wanted the young guys on the team to earn their spots and positions on the roster while being surrounded by good character vets.

After 2015, Benning had two primary options:

1) Push kids into the line-up even if they weren't quite ready.

2) Insulate whatever youth you had in the line-up (on the farm or via acquired reclamation projects), and surround them with veteran character players.

Benning initially tried to do option #1 by gifting Virtanen and McCann roster spots but the plan failed miserably.......and so Benning went with #2 which was extremely controversial. Since we had little to nothing in the system that was ready to be elevated, Benning spent picks on reclamation projects such as Vey, Granlund, Baertschi, etc. (lukewarm success but major failure for the most part). Benning also tried to bring in vets that would set the culture for this team.

I won't go into all the reasons as to why "the culture carriers" approach was a failure (you guys know all the reasons and its been repeated at nauseam), but I will say this:

1) This team was starting to trend upwards during the 2019-2020 season
2) With Beagle and Sutter here, we had an excellent PK if I recall correctly (or middle or the pack, my memory is fading)
3) As much of a shitshow as Loui Eriksson was, you could almost always depend on Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson to be thrown out there to protect a lead and take on the toughest match-ups.

As we saw in the bubble that year, our team chemistry was very strong. We defeated a superior Blues team and managed to push Vegas to 7 games even though we had no business doing so. Demko was off the hook against Vegas obviously, but a lot of that bubble success had to do with our team chemistry. Guys like Markstrom, Tanev, Edler, Beagle, Sutter, and Roussel helped make that room tick......and even players afterwards talked about how a leadership void existed once Markstrom, Tanev, Edler, and Toffoli were gone.

In my opinion, Benning should have done two things differently:

1) Handle the 2020 post bubble off-season much better (replace Green with Boudreau/etc., move on from Boeser and Virtanen, find a way to move Baertschi and Sutter, keep all of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli).

2) Instead of signing expensive vets to 5-6 year deals, weaponize cap space and bring in overpaid vets from other teams with picks attached (i.e. instead of signing Prust, accept Bickell with a 1st attached). Instead of going after Loui Eriksson, going after another vet on a shorter term deal, etc. Maybe even sign a PTO-calibre vet to a multi-year deal (2-3 years) if you want a blend of veteran leadership and contracts expiring at an appropriate time.

Anyways, hindsight is 20/20. Benning made a lot of awful moves, but I do find it funny that the people that mocked Benning for being obsessed with "intangibles" are now the same guys that are complaining about a lack of leadership in the room, as well as our awful PK (Beagle, Sutter), and an inability to hold leads (Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson). A lot of these guys also wanted to trade Tanev to Toronto back in 2016 (Tanev played a massive role in helping Hughes acclimate).

Benning's biggest downfall in my eyes is that he broke his promise. Benning's promise was that all/most of our 'veteran/transitional' contracts would be off the books once we were ready to move upwards. After the 2020 bubble, Benning failed to move guys like Baertschi and Sutter to clear cap space while letting guys like Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli walk.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Well, not Arizona since I doubt Myers would waive his limited NTCs to play in a college rink and I don’t think Coyotes will actually even try and compete next season but the general point is correct.

I assume they'd unload both players at the deadline. But yes, any team with lots of cap space could do it.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Benning wasn't trying to "compete" from 2015 to 2018 ('compete' as in win a cup). Him and Linden were realistic as to where this club was after they lost to the Flames in 2015. What he wanted to do was get the young guys to compete so that they could make the playoffs and get playoff exposure so that it would aid in their development. He wanted the young guys on the team to earn their spots and positions on the roster while being surrounded by good character vets.

After 2015, Benning had two primary options:

1) Push kids into the line-up even if they weren't quite ready.

2) Insulate whatever youth you had in the line-up (on the farm or via acquired reclamation projects), and surround them with veteran character players.

Benning initially tried to do option #1 by gifting Virtanen and McCann roster spots but the plan failed miserably.......and so Benning went with #2 which was extremely controversial. Since we had little to nothing in the system that was ready to be elevated, Benning spent picks on reclamation projects such as Vey, Granlund, Baertschi, etc. (lukewarm success but major failure for the most part). Benning also tried to bring in vets that would set the culture for this team.

I won't go into all the reasons as to why "the culture carriers" approach was a failure (you guys know all the reasons and its been repeated at nauseam), but I will say this:

1) This team was starting to trend upwards during the 2019-2020 season
2) With Beagle and Sutter here, we had an excellent PK if I recall correctly (or middle or the pack, my memory is fading)
3) As much of a shitshow as Loui Eriksson was, you could almost always depend on Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson to be thrown out there to protect a lead and take on the toughest match-ups.

As we saw in the bubble that year, our team chemistry was very strong. We defeated a superior Blues team and managed to push Vegas to 7 games even though we had no business doing so. Demko was off the hook against Vegas obviously, but a lot of that bubble success had to do with our team chemistry. Guys like Markstrom, Tanev, Edler, Beagle, Sutter, and Roussel helped make that room tick......and even players afterwards talked about how a leadership void existed once Markstrom, Tanev, Edler, and Toffoli were gone.

In my opinion, Benning should have done two things differently:

1) Handle the 2020 post bubble off-season much better (replace Green with Boudreau/etc., move on from Boeser and Virtanen, find a way to move Baertschi and Sutter, keep all of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli).

2) Instead of signing expensive vets to 5-6 year deals, weaponize cap space and bring in overpaid vets from other teams with picks attached (i.e. instead of signing Prust, accept Bickell with a 1st attached). Instead of going after Loui Eriksson, going after another vet on a shorter term deal, etc. Maybe even sign a PTO-calibre vet to a multi-year deal (2-3 years) if you want a blend of veteran leadership and contracts expiring at an appropriate time.

Anyways, hindsight is 20/20. Benning made a lot of awful moves, but I do find it funny that the people that mocked Benning for being obsessed with "intangibles" are now the same guys that are complaining about a lack of leadership in the room, as well as our awful PK (Beagle, Sutter), and an inability to hold leads (Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson). A lot of these guys also wanted to trade Tanev to Toronto back in 2016 (Tanev played a massive role in helping Hughes acclimate).

Benning's biggest downfall in my eyes is that he broke his promise. Benning's promise was that all/most of our 'veteran/transitional' contracts would be off the books once we were ready to move upwards. After the 2020 bubble, Benning failed to move guys like Baertschi and Sutter to clear cap space while letting guys like Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli walk.

Certainly seemed to me he was trying to compete..(for the Sedins)...although I would put the dates as 2014-17.....In 2017, Linden announced they were indeed rebuilding..In 2019, once again they were actively competing for a playoff spot.

 

[Vector]

I assume they'd unload both players at the deadline. But yes, any team with lots of cap space could do it.

I figure it’ll be an off-season move as there will be certainty of next season’s cap and Pearson’s NTC expires.

 

[Ruthervin]

Certainly seemed to me he was trying to compete..(for the Sedins)...although I would put the dates as 2014-17.....In 2017, Linden announced they were indeed rebuilding..In 2019, once again they were actively competing for a playoff spot.

Perhaps but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

My interpretation of when Benning said he was "trying to compete" was that he was trying to get the kids playoff exposure while being competitive in games (as opposed to being blown out 5-1, 6-2 in games). If Benning had truly wanted to be competitive during this era, I think we would have seen more 1st round picks being traded for players. Benning didn't start trading 1st rounders until the 2019 summer (Miller deal) and 2021 summer (Garland). But again, maybe that's just my interpretation. I do know that Benning didn't want his teams showing up half-heartedly to games and deliberately tanking for lottery picks as that would go against culture building and becoming men.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Perhaps but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

My interpretation of when Benning said he was "trying to compete" was that he was trying to get the kids playoff exposure while being competitive in games (as opposed to being blown out 5-1, 6-2 in games). If Benning had truly wanted to be competitive during this era, I think we would have seen more 1st round picks being traded for players. Benning didn't start trading 1st rounders until the 2019 summer (Miller deal) and 2021 summer (Garland). But again, maybe that's just my interpretation. I do know that Benning didn't want his teams showing up half-heartedly to games and deliberately tanking for lottery picks as that would go against culture building and becoming men.

Agreed..It was half in, and half out..Not committing to completely 'going for it'..or completely rebuilding..

Its what Ray Ferraro called' serving two masters'.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I figure it’ll be an off-season move as there will be certainty of next season’s cap and Pearson’s NTC expires.

I mean I assume Arizona would, and that this would be their motivation for acquiring players with 1 year left. Incidentally Myers would have to be moved in the summer as his bonus is payable after the season.

 

[Peter Griffin]

What I would do, if the Canucks bounce back and make the playoffs this year, is do one of the following:

1) At the end of the Summer, make another "Canucks-Coyotes" type deal (with the Yotes or another team) in which we get add sweeteners to get rid of Myers, Pearson, and Poolman. With that freed up money, we go hard after a UFA d-man and patch up other areas that may need patching. If we choose NOT to do this, then pray that one of Boeser or Garland re-ups their value so that we can move them for a pick at the end of the season. Use that money to re-sign Kuzemko. A year later, replace the contracts of Myers and Pearson with better value. Don't let Horvat walk.

2) Do whatever you can to get Chychrun. I know that sounds crazy but one big reason why the Canucks are losing games right now is because: A) OEL-Myers are being exposed since they have to take on the toughest match-ups on the team. B) As much as I love Schenn, he doesn't help elevate Hughes or minimize Hughes' weaknesses in the manner that a Chris Tanev. Do whatever you can to bring in Chychrun (i.e. Hoglander/Boeser, Rathbone, 1st rounder, Lekkerimaki, Ferland, Poolman) and now all of a sudden, you have a defensive pairing of

Chychrun-Hughes
OEL-Myers

which, while not ideal, would be a massive step up from what we have now and could be a major rippling effect.

Don't let Horvat walk.

3) IF the Canucks have a bad home stand here, blow it up.........and by blow it up, I'm not talking about just Horvat, Garland, and Miller. I'm talking about Horvat, Garland, Miller, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, and Kuzemko. Get elite prospects and/or picks for the above, and go hard after Bedard via Tank. Why move Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes you may ask? Because - if you do a rebuild, Petey won't want to be here when he becomes an RFA anyways. And if you did a rebuild, Hughes and Demko will be at or close to contract expiration once the team got competitive again. On top of the above, weaponize cap space and take in bad contracts (2 years or less) with picks incoming our way. I would avoid 3 years or plus.

I agree mostly with what you’ve said here. I think if management is going to commit to this core, they need to push hard to acquire pieces to supplement it, using picks/prospects to do so. Either go all-in with this core or re-build. Maybe they’re waiting for the first quarter of this season to play out before they fully commit which isn’t a bad idea.

 

[VanillaCoke]

NYI and Columbus still desperately need Miller..

 

[Fatass]

Benning wasn't trying to "compete" from 2015 to 2018 ('compete' as in win a cup). Him and Linden were realistic as to where this club was after they lost to the Flames in 2015. What he wanted to do was get the young guys to compete so that they could make the playoffs and get playoff exposure so that it would aid in their development. He wanted the young guys on the team to earn their spots and positions on the roster while being surrounded by good character vets.

After 2015, Benning had two primary options:

1) Push kids into the line-up even if they weren't quite ready.

2) Insulate whatever youth you had in the line-up (on the farm or via acquired reclamation projects), and surround them with veteran character players.

Benning initially tried to do option #1 by gifting Virtanen and McCann roster spots but the plan failed miserably.......and so Benning went with #2 which was extremely controversial. Since we had little to nothing in the system that was ready to be elevated, Benning spent picks on reclamation projects such as Vey, Granlund, Baertschi, etc. (lukewarm success but major failure for the most part). Benning also tried to bring in vets that would set the culture for this team.

I won't go into all the reasons as to why "the culture carriers" approach was a failure (you guys know all the reasons and its been repeated at nauseam), but I will say this:

1) This team was starting to trend upwards during the 2019-2020 season
2) With Beagle and Sutter here, we had an excellent PK if I recall correctly (or middle or the pack, my memory is fading)
3) As much of a shitshow as Loui Eriksson was, you could almost always depend on Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson to be thrown out there to protect a lead and take on the toughest match-ups.

As we saw in the bubble that year, our team chemistry was very strong. We defeated a superior Blues team and managed to push Vegas to 7 games even though we had no business doing so. Demko was off the hook against Vegas obviously, but a lot of that bubble success had to do with our team chemistry. Guys like Markstrom, Tanev, Edler, Beagle, Sutter, and Roussel helped make that room tick......and even players afterwards talked about how a leadership void existed once Markstrom, Tanev, Edler, and Toffoli were gone.

In my opinion, Benning should have done two things differently:

1) Handle the 2020 post bubble off-season much better (replace Green with Boudreau/etc., move on from Boeser and Virtanen, find a way to move Baertschi and Sutter, keep all of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli).

2) Instead of signing expensive vets to 5-6 year deals, weaponize cap space and bring in overpaid vets from other teams with picks attached (i.e. instead of signing Prust, accept Bickell with a 1st attached). Instead of going after Loui Eriksson, going after another vet on a shorter term deal, etc. Maybe even sign a PTO-calibre vet to a multi-year deal (2-3 years) if you want a blend of veteran leadership and contracts expiring at an appropriate time.

Anyways, hindsight is 20/20. Benning made a lot of awful moves, but I do find it funny that the people that mocked Benning for being obsessed with "intangibles" are now the same guys that are complaining about a lack of leadership in the room, as well as our awful PK (Beagle, Sutter), and an inability to hold leads (Pearson-Horvat-Eriksson). A lot of these guys also wanted to trade Tanev to Toronto back in 2016 (Tanev played a massive role in helping Hughes acclimate).

Benning's biggest downfall in my eyes is that he broke his promise. Benning's promise was that all/most of our 'veteran/transitional' contracts would be off the books once we were ready to move upwards. After the 2020 bubble, Benning failed to move guys like Baertschi and Sutter to clear cap space while letting guys like Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli walk.

Totally agree that the off-season after the bubble success was horrid and very much set us back.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

NYI and Columbus still desperately need Miller..

Jarmo ain’t stupid.

Lam however…

 

[TruGr1t]

I admire the fact there are still posters writing extensively long diatribes around this mediocre roster that never achieves much of anything, but don't worry because next off-season is going to really be the one where they somehow transform this dog into a perennial playoff team. Like holy broken record, Batman.

The only way you could be possibly optimistic about the organizations roster building prospects is assuming there was some sort of push from below, maybe you hit on a couple Bieksa/Edler/Burrows types. But the farm system totally sucks.

Other than that, there is no way to fix this roster through trade or free agency. This whole "we can just trade all our draft picks and futures to 'win now', then build the roster through free agency" is completely asinine. It's like you want to skip an entire fundamental part of building good teams, which shockingly involves having a competent farm system and prospect pool.

You can't compete in this league without a good group of young, cost-controlled assets. You missed the boat.

 

[Vector]

Jarmo ain’t stupid.

There’s a Real Gud argument against this.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

There’s a Real Gud argument against this.

You mean Johnny B Gud?

 

[CherryToke]

Allvin!

What have you done