Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan

[gringo]

How incompetent and despicable do you have to be to make me start to like Benning?

This organization is completely horrible. I hope they get absolutely destroyed tomorrow. And on Hockey Day in Canada, the biggest story in the hockey world will be the complete tire fire at Rogers Arena.

Congrats Aquilini, Rutherford, and Allvin. It's what you deserve.


Hmm...I thought talking to the media was explicitly against club policy. They had to fire Doerrie because of it!

I wonder who's getting fired for all these leaks? Oh wait...no one! Because this is a pathetic, laughable organization.

The source of the head coach leak is the guy contracted with the media until after the all star game

 

[Raistlin]

I don't get this comment. If you want to embarrass them don't you want them to win a national game with the team showing up for Bruce?

I'm fascinated by the storm/traction the frenzied media is able to generate.

Nothing can make me hate Benning more, an unsympathetic old manager is leagues more preferable to an incompetent clown given endless rope to screw up again and again.

 

[gringo]

That Cogliano quote is rather damning. EP40s successive “no comments” are pretty concerning. While I would like Myers gone at any cost from this franchise (including Abbotsford) he is still a professional hockey player thats seen a lot in his career so his comments are very concerning.

Don’t need to infer much the pros have told you all you need to know about this situation the team is in.

I'm fascinated by the storm/traction the frenzied media is able to generate.

Nothing can make me hate Benning more, an unsympathetic old manager is leagues more preferable to an incompetent clown given endless rope to screw up again and again.

The media didn’t say the circus distracted the team- one of the “leaders”, Myers did.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I think it's because the curtain has been pulled back and everyone is seeing the source of the rot in the organization and realizing it might never end.

When Benning was around he was the town clown, the perfect lightning rod for aqua, and he always had an expiration date. Now everyone's looking straight at the source.

Pretty much perfect post.

 

[arttk]

Imagine thinking that a player, just because he's not performing well, doesn't have the right to comment on this situation. Imagine taking all humanity out of things like that.


Speaking of Allvin, what a non-entity this guy is. Wow. Like, I know being in the spotlight in this situation isn't preferable, but speak up. Be heard. Prove you're someone in all this and thus are capable of being part of the solution.

If you and a couple of guys started a fire and the fire department comes in and does a horrible job and people die because they couldn’t put out the fire. As people are talking about how they messed up and you come out and say, yeah those fire fighters really messed things up didn’t they. Like should you really be the one commenting on it? Sure it’s a free world and you should but at that point, it’s probably not the best because without you, this wouldn’t even f***ing happen.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

If you and a couple of guys started a fire and the fire department comes in and does a horrible job and people die because they couldn’t put out the fire. As people are talking about how they messed up and you come out and say, yeah those fire fighters really messed things up didn’t they. Like should you really be the one commenting on it? Sure it’s a free world and you should but at that point, it’s probably not the best because without you, this wouldn’t even f***ing happen.

I mean I agree with you, but I wonder what our reaction would be if EP came out and said what Myers did?

 

[Breakers]

And if the fans are so reactive to negative news, how can this market stomach a scorched earth rebuild??

Well we stomached being directionless for 7 years and missing the playoffs 6 of those years and only got in that one time by a technicality

Pretty sure they can handle it.

 

[arttk]

I mean I agree with you, but I wonder what our reaction would be if EP came out and said what Myers did?

I mean any player can come out and say whatever their thoughts are about this.

I think if it was Petey then there are going to be pages debating if he is unhappy and if he is going to leave.

 

[Nucker101]

My guess is JR retires this summer and Francesco eats Allvin’s lunch and becomes de-facto President of Hockey Ops again.

Wouldn't put it past FA to ask the Sedins to step into a larger role like he did with Linden as a desperate attempt to shield the organization from criticism from fans.

 

[PG Canuck]

I'm fascinated by the storm/traction the frenzied media is able to generate.

Nothing can make me hate Benning more, an unsympathetic old manager is leagues more preferable to an incompetent clown given endless rope to screw up again and again.

Be careful what you wish for. This regime is only getting started.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I feel sorry for Bruce B. It is like he is on death row waiting for the warden to come him and take him to the chair

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Bruce is a great guy. Objectively maybe not a top-tier coach; but on a personal level one of the best guys out there.

 

[strattonius]

Seems pretty obvious to me the fanbase would embrace a rebuild at this point - wow we are viewed as naive even by our own fans. So these comments 'could our fans stomach a rebuild at this point?' is about as out of touch and aligned with our own President who can't find the handle on this fanbase as well.

 

[nameless1]

Bruce is a great guy. Objectively maybe not a top-tier coach; but on a personal level one of the best guys out there.

In my opinion...
He might be at the bottom of the top-tier...
Perhaps in the A-/ B+ range.
The man wins consistently during the regular season...
With whatever team...
And that takes more than luck.
He does falter in the playoffs...
But since only one team wins the Cup each year...
That label can be put on a lot of coaches too.

 

[F A N]

I just addressed you so called point of them trotting him out. It’s gameday and league requirement for them to let media talk to the coach. That’s a thing you know. You can criticize them for not firing him yet but until that happens, that’s his job.

Every coach that is on the hot seat or performing the same degree as BB bad knows that they will be replaced. Hell all coaches knows they will be replaced because 90% of all coaches ends up getting fired and an insanely small amount of them gets to go through their contracts.

Green was going through the exact same shit last season and I don’t see the media saying that was disgraceful and ironically BB was the rumored coach while Green was still coaching. It’s not like it was surprising that BB ended up being the guy, the same rumors you see now worked out for him then.

Ask yourself, did we see the media throw up and do what they are doing now? Hell did you come out and say omg I can’t believe they are treating Green like that, how could they be looking for another coach while they let Green coach. I am pretty sure that’s a no.

Just jumping into the discussion here and my apologies if I missed certain points you made. I think there is a difference between being in the hot seat or being in a situation where the writing is on the wall and your boss telling everyone that he's interviewed candidates to replace you.

Take your Green example. The writing was on the wall for sure, but his boss was still supporting him or at least not openly telling everyone that he's interviewing replacements. Aquilini went and talked to Bruce. He didn't announce to everyone that he had talked to Bruce. He certainly didn't announce to everyone that he had talked to candidate(s) to replace Benning.

"Rumours," by definition, may not be true. At no point in time did Green's boss(es) say they have been in contact with head coaching candidates. By the time there were strong rumours/belief that Boudreau would replace Green, Green was gone within days.

JR in his interview said the pre-season was bad and the team system is not there. What part of that is humiliating? The fact the results line up with what he said and what we see?
...
Actually in my line of work, my output goes through pretty harsh critique and as long as it’s about the work it’s fine. Because that’s how you improve. So when I see JR coming out saying the system is not implemented the way they want it, yeah that checks out. There is nothing factually wrong or personally insulting with that statement.

I disagree with this. In this day and age, the POHO/GM should be well aware of the system the coach is implementing and it's not like Boudreau is a new hire. In fact, it's pretty much expected that the POHO/GM and coach would spend time talking about systems and the POHO/GM would have some input on how the team is going to play. Boudreau has coached over 1000 NHL games and Rutherford has watched plenty of Boudreau coached teams play over the years.

As for your line of work, the criticism isn't made public is it? If I google your name I won't find an article where your boss harshly critiques your ability to perform the job?

Regardless what is considered insulting depends on established norms doesn't it? Have you seen a POHO/GM blaming a HC who is still coaching the team and telling everyone that they have interviewed HC candidates? I suppose Rutherford did openly criticize Johnston for scratching Sprong but he didn't openly say he had spoken to potential replacements.

Blaming Boudreau for the team's play suggests that management thinks this team has underachieved even when they have been playing without what management considered to be a franchise goalie. To me, that's actually the interesting discussion here. I don't think the most optimistic fan boys here (myself included) think the team would have no trouble making the playoffs without Demko playing like the elite goaltender we have seen him be, nevermind having Spencer Martin as the team's #1 goalie. The Canucks have lost a lot of 1 goal games this season (games that we probably would have won had we had Demko playing like a top 15 goaltender).

If you want to see another way to treat a head coach, look at how Yzerman treated Blashill. He brought Blashill back and didn't blame him for the roster he had to coach. Even after firing him, Yzerman praised Blashill for the work he did despite thinking that a change was needed.

 

[me2]

We had $0.00 of cap space, AFTER trading Dickinson for a 2nd. Would you have traded another 2nd or 3rd to clear the additional cap space required to qualify Boeser?

Your “win-win” does infact have a “lose” aspect to it.

You realise that was about maximising cap space and arranged the contracts to have zero for cap calculations?

 

[Jay26]

If you and a couple of guys started a fire and the fire department comes in and does a horrible job and people die because they couldn’t put out the fire. As people are talking about how they messed up and you come out and say, yeah those fire fighters really messed things up didn’t they. Like should you really be the one commenting on it? Sure it’s a free world and you should but at that point, it’s probably not the best because without you, this wouldn’t even f***ing happen.

Dude, Myers did not cause the organization to handle the matter like they are. You can argue Myers play isn't helping Bruce's cause as coach of the team but how the organization conducts themselves and handles the situation is on THEM.
I don't know how I can make the point any clearer. I can't believe some people take a bad performance by an athlete this personally.

 

[Raistlin]

Seems pretty obvious to me the fanbase would embrace a rebuild at this point - wow we are viewed as naive even by our own fans. So these comments 'could our fans stomach a rebuild at this point?' is about as out of touch and aligned with our own President who can't find the handle on this fanbase as well.

I wonder aloud if the fans can stomach a scorched earth rebuild because I see the fans suddenly want the team to be humiliated to oblivion because the team won't fire the coach who is contributing to the losses.

I was expecting more stoicism at this point I suppose, as the upcoming years will be filled with thrown jerseys and paper bags over heads moments. Keeping a coach languishing in the wind is ugly but it is a solid direction towards a rebuild. I thought this is that clear direction that the fans are clamoring for? As the fans prepared for this level of ugliness?

Are our media? I thought they will stoically accept the painful reality of a tank, but instead the one guy that is daily drumming hardest for a rebuild, decide to ask Bruce to put into words about the seeming conclusion of his thousand game NHL career. Why? I don't think he deserves the ambush either. I mean his reaction is akin to asking Boeser point blank how seeing his father fade away in front of flashing cameras turned out. Media is powerful, and our market is one of the worst when it comes to hockey, ever minor tidbit of information get spun into a firestorm. I think what Myers allude to has as much to do with our constant media maelstrom sucking the joy of playing a game for them, as to Rutherford's confounding public non confidence of Boudreau forcing the team to deal with the blowback. I'm just playing Devils advocate here.

Are you, me, and most importantly the local media ready for this?

 

[Raistlin]

I'm staunchly OG team tank btw.

 

[rypper]

One more time for the folks in the back.

It's not about whether or not Bruce should be fired. He should be. Full stop. It's 100% about how they've treated him leading up to the inevitable.

And come on people, the media is soft as hell in this market.

 

[tantalum]

Looking for a replacement coach prior to firing the current coach is a tried and true thing in professional sports. Hell even leaks about just that happening while the dead man walking continues to coach have happened.

The issue here is is that it has gone one for far too long and truly found it’s way to the locker room. It needed to be dealt with prior to what is currently happening. Well before what is happening.

They came out of last year knowing they needed a different or better structure and that was a clear requirement of the coaching staff. When it was clear that it wasn’t happening 20 some games into the season that was the time to make the change.

This ignores that the players likely aren’t capable of playing a consistent and strong systems game and it is no coaches fault….but I digress.

 

[Toss it to Tanti]

You realise that was about maximising cap space and arranged the contracts to have zero for cap calculations?

Which is exactly my point, which is that Emilie Castinguay’s job is partially to do with the movement of contracts to be able to maximize our cap flexibility.

On top of that, we couldn’t have afforded another million for Boeser by offering his QO without moving out a contract or not signing Mikeyhev.

I will again reiterate, the original comment was speaking to Emilie’s abhorrent work that she’s done so far, which I was defending. I’m not defending the management group as a whole.

I think this management group has done a terrible job at turning the roster over, has provided a lot of false hope, and has worn out their welcome here. Especially when it comes to how they’ve treated Bruce these last few weeks.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Benning was stupid AND cowardly. Hid for two weeks after the COVID outbreak while JT Miller and the lame duck head coach were left as spokesmen for the team.

This is 100% true.

The current group I have no issue executing a solid plan.

No matter what the plan would have been, Jim & Co could not have succeeded.

 

[gringo]

I wonder aloud if the fans can stomach a scorched earth rebuild because I see the fans suddenly want the team to be humiliated to oblivion because the team won't fire the coach who is contributing to the losses.

I was expecting more stoicism at this point I suppose, as the upcoming years will be filled with thrown jerseys and paper bags over heads moments. Keeping a coach languishing in the wind is ugly but it is a solid direction towards a rebuild. I thought this is that clear direction that the fans are clamoring for? As the fans prepared for this level of ugliness?

Are our media? I thought they will stoically accept the painful reality of a tank, but instead the one guy that is daily drumming hardest for a rebuild, decide to ask Bruce to put into words about the seeming conclusion of his thousand game NHL career. Why? I don't think he deserves the ambush either. I mean his reaction is akin to asking Boeser point blank how seeing his father fade away in front of flashing cameras turned out. Media is powerful, and our market is one of the worst when it comes to hockey, ever minor tidbit of information get spun into a firestorm. I think what Myers allude to has as much to do with our constant media maelstrom sucking the joy of playing a game for them, as to Rutherford's confounding public non confidence of Boudreau forcing the team to deal with the blowback. I'm just playing Devils advocate here.

Are you, me, and most importantly the local media ready for this?

I’ve never seen a post that was wrong in almost every aspect.

We want Bruce respected which means you fire him when you’ve moved onto other plans. You appoint an interim coach like almost every other team in modern professional sports. In fact most fans don’t want him fired we want him to ride out his contract terms to the end of the season so we can lose more while Bruce keeps a relatively positive atmosphere around the room.

You’ve completely mischaracterized what fans want. People and especially the media have mischaracterized what fans in vancouver have wanted for a decade and I’m damn tired of it. We want a rebuilt. We demand a winner!

Enough gaslighting us about what we can or can’t handle or another summer where all the talk is about making the damn playoffs. PLAYOFFFSSSSS?????

 

[theguardianII]

To be honest, aside from winning a cup and walking away on his own terms, having an arena full of people chanting my name before my retirement isn't a terrbile way to go out.

Rutherford had no idea what he was walking into.

Oh I am not so sure Rutherford didn't, this could be "Managing up".

Also, Myers next year is no where near worth Guenther. I would think Myers next year after the bonus is paid, may be worth a 3rd to 4th round pick, and likely only to Ottawa as they’re a budget team wanting to compete for the playoffs. At the deadline next year he may be worth similar value to a contender.

You never know, it isn't the amount of money spent it is the cap hit. I am not sure Ottawa has the cap space but Arizona need cap hits that are bigger than money spent. Myers is a +5 million cap hit.

He is also the highly valued RHD and the way he has maintain his composure in the room as a leader has value.

Arizona can offer up a 1rst easily, you really have to look the players from a different point of view.

Other RHD have gotten much more than just a first round pick, hell the media are saying Schenn could be worth a 1rt or 2nd round pick

Yeah but Boston won’t take him because he sucks. Buying him out might probably be best, at least you don’t have him on the roster sinking one paring down.

But it eats up a contract spot, adds to the cap for 8 years, does not bring back anything in return and who is there to replace him? And I posted before he was never a defensive dman any more than Hughes is, he was and is an offensive dman.

It’s low effort stupid replies that lowers the quality of the board.

I am not in the business of saying JR is great, if they hire Tocchet then I’ll be piss and critize them heavily for it.

Like I said, what has Jr said that is humiliating. BB has done a bad job in several different ways and pointing that out is humiliating? There are ways to talk about things without it being personal and nothing he has said has been personal. Yet you guys all gobble that shit up and think oh yeah yeah that was really personal.

Still there is some reason that this wasn't put to bed a long time ago without all the drama.
Management vetted and hired Yeo, a NHL head coach as an assistant, if Bruce was such a problem for management all they had to do is what they are going to do soon, fire him without the months long ridiculing.

If they do hire The Bookie he will not have a good time here.

Honestly if you have an issue with my opinion I am open to debate on it. The fact that you seem to bucket me into well he must be a JR shill because he has a different opinion shows how shallow your thinking is. Yes people don’t just below to two extremes, it’s shocking to you but if you are capable of some original thought then that possibility might not be so shocking for you.

You ought to see the extremes CDC goes to in order to keep the kombya going.

If the Canucks bought out OEL this summer what would be the amount that would count against our cap?

19 million over 8 years, whereas a 50% retain is 15 mil over 4 years and the retention spot remains open and there would be some sort of a return.

"Former Vancouver Canuck, former scapegoat".

It will never not piss me off that Aquilini basically brought in Linden to be a meat shield to criticism and once he thought for himself, he was thrown away like a children's play toy. We are literally being run by Sid from Toy Story.

It was obvious why Linden was brought on board, to soothe the mob but I do think that they had the idea that Quinn would be the mentor like Bowman was in Chicago. That would have changed things.
But don't give Linden an award, if he had put TEAM first a rebuild may have started earlier and vets may have been traded. Benning gets a lot of flack for that, letting vets go for nothing but Linden has some responsibility there too.
He hated it when he was traded and I think that colored his decision making to be more player than team.

Blaming Boudreau for the team's play suggests that management thinks this team has underachieved even when they have been playing without what management considered to be a franchise goalie. To me, that's actually the interesting discussion here. I don't think the most optimistic fan boys here (myself included) think the team would have no trouble making the playoffs without Demko playing like the elite goaltender we have seen him be, nevermind having Spencer Martin as the team's #1 goalie. The Canucks have lost a lot of 1 goal games this season (games that we probably would have won had we had Demko playing like a top 15 goaltender).

How the team is playing is the result of roster construction and demands on player to ply outside of their comfort zone. The players cannot be blamed for taking the money offered.
That the team would win IF Demko played like a Vezina candidate? I'll let that one slip because to me it is like a coach saying "If we scored an those two goals we would have won" or "If we stop that shot we win". Food for fodder.

It isn't JUST the easy season the team has to be good in. BTW I am in the camp of the last 6 years kind of shows what the team has and that getting older without enough young players doesn't make a team better if it has a losing culture. So no, I didn't think the team progressed as far or fast as others in the division let alone the league.

I think I just read that Pettersson refused to answer some questions in the post game. I can't find that