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Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan

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theguardianII said:
2014 to now 2023.

That is considered two hockey generations.

What is there that is good about what has been happening?

How many years can Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Demko and Hughes be considered the great youth on the team? How many years cheering for their exploits? And team depth?

When actions elicit a certain reaction that reaction can become a habit.

Sometimes watching can lead to learning. So for the time between 2014 and 2023 what has been taught by the Canucks? Smart people will eventually start to look at why?

Why have other teams been worse but are now far better?
Why have Stanley cup winners won? What did they do?
Why don't the Canucks have cap space?

Even if some of the answers are easily found then why did they do them if they were that easy to find?

I am probably considered a conspiracy nut because I don't things "just happen" all the time. To me there has to be a reason why Bruce was not let go if that is what they wanted to do a long time ago.

So I looked at the schedule, it is perfect for a new guy coming in. Two below .500 teams right off the bat if Bruce is canned after tonight's game. A road trip starting after a break in the schedule. Then playing teams that will be deciding on tanking for a better draft position with other teams secured in their playoff spots so not as invested in winning as keeping healthy. The new guy gets the 3rd easiest schedule in the league.

There is a good chance there will be a bump again, just like last year. And some years in the past when Arizona, Buffalo and Vancouver had the best records in the league for a couple of weeks near the end of the season but all still ended up at the bottom.

If there is a bump with a new coach what do you think they do? At the TDL? At the draft? Will they want the new guy to have time to see if he can change the spots on the leopard?

IMO what happens between now and the TDL will signal if any change will happen at all other than a coach.

Here is one single "What if", what if Schenn decides to go?

You know the Canucks have never done a rebuild or won a cup either.
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Ok ummm so yeah I share your pain.

You wrote a lot so I guess I’ll just reply in general. I think Benning is an uniquely bad GM. I think 99% of the things he has done is whack and shit is so f***ed up that it will take time to resolve. Also he is so horrible that I think most of the fan base is suffering from post Benning syndrome thinking any similar philosophy will lead to the worse possible result. Like finding young players is a fine strategy if they can get like Dach right? But Benning is so adept at finding Vey, Pedan, Pouliot, Granlind and etc for really high prices that this fan base somehow assumes that’s what JR and crew will do because JR like Benning don’t believe in a complete tear down rebuild. People seemed to forget that this league is not about strategy but about execution. There are like 3 or 4 strategies period in building a hockey team. You rebuild, build, go all in and retool and you jump between these states. The thing that separate the teams aren’t what state they are at but how well they execute. Saying that oh JR is like Benning but with better pro scouting is like completely missing the point. A Benning with better pro scouting is not Benning, the fact that makes Benning bad is that he is the shit Midas and nearly every pro scouting decision leads to the shittiest outcome.
So I am trying to let you all know that, plan doesn’t f***ing matter, execution does. Like if you don’t trust them to build then you shouldn’t trust them to rebuild because if you have a bunch of guys that can’t execute, it will just lead to a decade of rebuilding. So what matters is how good are they able to evaluate talent, their contract work, trade history and etc.

I think management wants to replace almost everyone but Petey, Hughes and Demko. Like Miller was on the block too and the return was meh so they decided to keep him. I don’t really think they are double downing on what people think are the core. I just think they want to move as many pieces out as possible and for some pieces, if the return is not there, they will either keep him at market value(Miller) or they will keep in order to rehabilitate value (garland and Boeser). So this so called re-tool is really like a small rebuild. Now if that doesn’t happen by this off-season, you will see me popping off as well but I can understand how there are a bunch of players that are just impossible to move.

I don’t agree with the Tocchet move so I don’t know what to say. I hope we don’t get a new coach bump, i really really hope we don’t get a new coach bump.

I think Bo, Schenn and one more player will be gone at TDL. It’s going to happen so I am really curious what type of asset they are going to get.
 
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Billion
arttk said:
Ok ummm so yeah I share your pain.

You wrote a lot so I guess I’ll just reply in general. I think Benning is an uniquely bad GM. I think 99% of the things he has done is whack and shit is so f***ed up that it will take time to resolve. Also he is so horrible that I think most of the fan base is suffering from post Benning syndrome thinking any similar philosophy will lead to the worse possible result. Like finding young players is a fine strategy if they can get like Dach right? But Benning is so adept at finding Vey, Pedan, Pouliot, Granlind and etc for really high prices that this fan base somehow assumes that’s what JR and crew will do because JR like Benning don’t believe in a complete tear down rebuild. People seemed to forget that this league is not about strategy but about execution. There are like 3 or 4 strategies period in building a hockey team. You rebuild, build, go all in and retool and you jump between these states. The thing that separate the teams aren’t what state they are at but how well they execute. Saying that oh JR is like Benning but with better pro scouting is like completely missing the point. A Benning with better pro scouting is not Benning, the fact that makes Benning bad is that he is the shit Midas and nearly every pro scouting decision leads to the shittiest outcome.
So I am trying to let you all know that, plan doesn’t f***ing matter, execution does. Like if you don’t trust them to build then you shouldn’t trust them to rebuild because if you have a bunch of guys that can’t execute, it will just lead to a decade of rebuilding. So what matters is how good are they able to evaluate talent, their contract work, trade history and etc.

I think management wants to replace almost everyone but Petey, Hughes and Demko. Like Miller was on the block too and the return was meh so they decided to keep him. I don’t really think they are double downing on what people think are the core. I just think they want to move as many pieces out as possible and for some pieces, if the return is not there, they will either keep him at market value(Miller) or they will keep in order to rehabilitate value (garland and Boeser). So this so called re-tool is really like a small rebuild. Now if that doesn’t happen by this off-season, you will see me popping off as well but I can understand how there are a bunch of players that are just impossible to move.

I don’t agree with the Tocchet move so I don’t know what to say. I hope we don’t get a new coach bump, i really really hope we don’t get a new coach bump.

I think Bo, Schenn and one more player will be gone at TDL. It’s going to happen so I am really curious what type of asset they are going to get.
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It is not a rebuild if the intent is to win now. The Canucks have lucked into a tanking position for the second year in a row (sure the winning in the second half under Boudreau was fun, but also completely futile), and it appears likely that for the second year in a row they won't take advantage of it.
 
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CpatainCanuck said:
Billion

It is not a rebuild if the intent is to win now. The Canucks have lucked into a tanking position for the second year in a row (sure the winning in the second half under Boudreau was fun, but also completely futile), and it appears likely that for the second year in a row they won't take advantage of it.
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They tried to trade Boeser, Miller, OEL, Myers, Garland, Pearson and they are in the process of trading Bo, Schenn and god knows who else.

Yeah they are going to essentially replace the team with players they like with the purpose of winning.

It will be incredibly frustrating if we get a new coach bump. I really hope we don’t or we end up trading so many players away that it’s impossible to have a new coach bump.
 
arttk said:
They tried to trade Boeser, Miller, OEL, Myers, Garland, Pearson and they are in the process of trading Bo, Schenn and god knows who else.

Yeah they are going to essentially replace the team with players they like with the purpose of winning.

It will be incredibly frustrating if we get a new coach bump. I really hope we don’t or we end up trading so many players away that it’s impossible to have a new coach bump.
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Errr...all these players are still on the team. So they evidently didn't try very hard to trade them.
 
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CpatainCanuck said:
Errr...all these players are still on the team. So they evidently didn't try very hard to trade them.
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Yeah they are all on the team and that’s why JR said the management team failed.

I also don’t think they didn’t try hard enough but they had high prices that teams weren’t willing to meet and they didn’t feel like they needed to get rid of them for the sake of getting rid of them.
 
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arttk said:
A couple of things, we had no idea how much Benning supported Green because Benning was absolutely absent and refused to address anything.

I’ve said this before, I am in design so if I was paid million+ then I am pretty damn sure my profile would be very public. Also the nature of my work is that people shit on it all the time, everyone have opinions and we all just eat the feedback and try to make it better. i guess in our profession we are more aware of this because critiques are part of our process and it’s essential for us to know how to critique the work and not the person.

With that context, this is why all this “dragging Bruce through the mud” makes no sense to me, what JR said about the system not being there, preseason not being good, they are all true and fair statements about the outcome of his work. Are they not? I would expect a more detail tear down critique internal but considering it is external, i wouldn’t expect that kind of fidelity.

Also I wouldn’t see this as blaming. Blaming Bruce would be seeing JR said they gave him everything and he failed. JR has said he also failed his part as well. Yeah management didn’t give him everything he needs but what BB also fumbled what was given to him. Like we have a top 10 scoring team with league worse defense and a historic bad PK. Like we know what management want, they want a system and BB simply has not implemented anything resembling a system right?

Also BB has 1000 game experience, right. He has been fired from the Caps, Wild and the Ducks. If anything, he knows that he is going to be fired considering he himself was talking about playoffs and we are sitting 6th last.

Detroit is in the process of exiting a rebuild, that’s like the hardest part. I don’t follow the Detroit but when you watch them, do you see the same kind of chaos that you see with the Canucks every night?

Actually let’s be honest here, when we all watch the Canucks, does anyone here think that’s a well coached team and they are doing their best and at the end of the day, the only issue is there is just not enough talent. Anyone wants to come out and make that claim?
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You're conflating arguments here though. We're talking about how Bruce is being treated. It doesn't matter if Benning "hid" or didn't really support Green. Even when we were at the point where Green was all but gone, Green's boss didn't publicly criticize his coaching and tell the media that he has spoken to potential replacements. Green could still say that he speaks to Benning every day and deny knowing anything about his boss' plan for a replacement and shift focus to talking about something else such as approaching things day by day. And then what usually happens is Green would then get fired, management would thank and praise for his work and coaching ability, speak of a disappointing start to the season, felt need for new voice in the room yada yada and essentially giving Green a soft landing despite the firing.

That's not what's happening to Bruce here. His boss openly criticized his coaching and that they have already spoken to his potential replacements. The media has reported on who his replacement is going to be and the candidate himself had trouble denying that he's essentially been hired to take over.

You don't need to look further than here. We didn't spend weeks talking about when Boudreau is going to take over from Green. Meanwhile, we have a "Rumour" thread on here started almost a week ago of Tocchet being named as the next Canucks head coach (which wasn't even breaking news) and Boudreau is still the coach. Coaches are in the hot seat and get fired all the time. But these things have a usual way of playing out. The way things are playing out here is not normal.
 
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logan5 said:
They should have Tocchet in the management box at tonight's game, then during a tv time out, introduce him to the fans as the Canucks next head coach. Our sociopath president wouldn't have a problem doing this.
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I'm half expecting him to come out of the crowd, hit Bruce with a chair, do some trash talking, and coach the game. Two of the players beat down the assistants using their hockey sticks, take off the helmets and reveal themselves as Recchi and Gonchar. Cut to the balcony: JR smiles evilly with Allvin simping like Mr. Smithers.
 
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Actually that would be classic. Except have the next head coach of the Canucks be "The Rock". Then hand him a mic - CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKING!!! Then deliver the peoples elbow to Connor McDavid's head. Bruce would love that.
 
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F A N said:
You're conflating arguments here though. We're talking about how Bruce is being treated. It doesn't matter if Benning "hid" or didn't really support Green. Even when we were at the point where Green was all but gone, Green's boss didn't publicly criticize his coaching and tell the media that he has spoken to potential replacements. Green could still say that he speaks to Benning every day and deny knowing anything about his boss' plan for a replacement and shift focus to talking about something else such as approaching things day by day. And then what usually happens is Green would then get fired, management would thank and praise for his work and coaching ability, speak of a disappointing start to the season, felt need for new voice in the room yada yada and essentially giving Green a soft landing despite the firing.

That's not what's happening to Bruce here. His boss openly criticized his coaching and that they have already spoken to his potential replacements. The media has reported on who his replacement is going to be and the candidate himself had trouble denying that he's essentially been hired to take over.

You don't need to look further than here. We didn't spend weeks talking about when Boudreau is going to take over from Green. Meanwhile, we have a "Rumour" thread on here started almost a week ago of Tocchet being named as the next Canucks head coach (which wasn't even breaking news) and Boudreau is still the coach. Coaches are in the hot seat and get fired all the time. But these things have a usual way of playing out. The way things are playing out here is not normal.
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Well context is important. JR came out to answer for the team having a 7 game losing streak to start the season. Him talking about system and preseason was his response to a question. From that perspective, he’s basically saying why he thinks the team has underperformed and started so poorly. He could’ve just given some BS response, I suppose if it was Allvin that would’ve been the case. It seems like it’s just JR’s motto to be straight and no BS.

Of course Benning never did something similar because he has avoided the media and refuse to answer question when the team is bad. When was the last time you see Benning come out and answer questions when the team sucks? When the team was flailing last season he was nowhere to be seen.

We had rumors about Green being replaced for weeks. It went from Julien being Benning’s preferred choice to BB being Aqua’s preferred choice. I don’t remember if there was a thread about it but it definitely wasn’t blown up as much by media as it is now. It also wasn’t like oh we heard rumors and boom Green and Benning gone. That went on for quite a bit with a bunch of games where people were throwing Jersey to the ice. Hell even with that we still didn’t get as much media scrutiny.
 
I mean this with 100% truth. This is by far the lowest point in the Franchises history. Way worse than Messier era.

We have sexual assault , human rights tribunal case, hiring a coach whilst still having a coach and he knows it, we own the worst contract in the league in OEL, signed JTM forever who nobody likes. We are losing a top 5 NHL centre. We busted out on 3 top ten picks. We have the leagues worst PK, lead the league in goals against, botched surgeries, locker room rifts, 0 prospect pool which most say is a bottom 5 nhl prospect pool. We are capped out. We are not close to 1st overall pick.


When non local media and non local players take notice and comment …

This is organizational rock bottom.
 
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logan5 said:
Actually that would be classic. Except have the next head coach of the Canucks be "The Rock". Then hand him a mic - CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKING!!! Then deliver the peoples elbow to Connor McDavid's head. Bruce would love that.
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someone please photoshop Tocchet's face on this body:

wwe-vince-mc-mahon.gif
 
Captain in limbo answering questions about a coach in limbo.

This team is a reality show because these storylines are too good to be true
 
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