Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan

[bossram]

Imagine thinking that a player, just because he's not performing well, doesn't have the right to comment on this situation. Imagine taking all humanity out of things like that.


Speaking of Allvin, what a non-entity this guy is. Wow. Like, I know being in the spotlight in this situation isn't preferable, but speak up. Be heard. Prove you're someone in all this and thus are capable of being part of the solution.

He's JR's sock puppet paperwork guy. No surprise Allvin is nowhere to be found.

I don't get this comment. If you want to embarrass them don't you want them to win a national game with the team showing up for Bruce?

While I would like that for Bruce, winning the game presents a feel-good narrative for TV and the fans. To maximally embarrass the club, they need to look like the garbage fire that they are. Another pathetic loss accomplishes that.

 

[bossram]

I'm fascinated by the storm/traction the frenzied media is able to generate.

Nothing can make me hate Benning more, an unsympathetic old manager is leagues more preferable to an incompetent clown given endless rope to screw up again and again.

The old unsympathetic manager is also incompetent.

 

[mriswith]

Oh I am not so sure Rutherford didn't, this could be "Managing up".

I've been wondering the same thing. I'm wondering if this is mostly purposeful and we need to be giving credit to Rutherford for how much of a spotlight is being shone on ownership right now.

 

[arttk]

Just jumping into the discussion here and my apologies if I missed certain points you made. I think there is a difference between being in the hot seat or being in a situation where the writing is on the wall and your boss telling everyone that he's interviewed candidates to replace you.

Take your Green example. The writing was on the wall for sure, but his boss was still supporting him or at least not openly telling everyone that he's interviewing replacements. Aquilini went and talked to Bruce. He didn't announce to everyone that he had talked to Bruce. He certainly didn't announce to everyone that he had talked to candidate(s) to replace Benning.

"Rumours," by definition, may not be true. At no point in time did Green's boss(es) say they have been in contact with head coaching candidates. By the time there were strong rumours/belief that Boudreau would replace Green, Green was gone within days.




I disagree with this. In this day and age, the POHO/GM should be well aware of the system the coach is implementing and it's not like Boudreau is a new hire. In fact, it's pretty much expected that the POHO/GM and coach would spend time talking about systems and the POHO/GM would have some input on how the team is going to play. Boudreau has coached over 1000 NHL games and Rutherford has watched plenty of Boudreau coached teams play over the years.

As for your line of work, the criticism isn't made public is it? If I google your name I won't find an article where your boss harshly critiques your ability to perform the job?

Regardless what is considered insulting depends on established norms doesn't it? Have you seen a POHO/GM blaming a HC who is still coaching the team and telling everyone that they have interviewed HC candidates? I suppose Rutherford did openly criticize Johnston for scratching Sprong but he didn't openly say he had spoken to potential replacements.

Blaming Boudreau for the team's play suggests that management thinks this team has underachieved even when they have been playing without what management considered to be a franchise goalie. To me, that's actually the interesting discussion here. I don't think the most optimistic fan boys here (myself included) think the team would have no trouble making the playoffs without Demko playing like the elite goaltender we have seen him be, nevermind having Spencer Martin as the team's #1 goalie. The Canucks have lost a lot of 1 goal games this season (games that we probably would have won had we had Demko playing like a top 15 goaltender).

If you want to see another way to treat a head coach, look at how Yzerman treated Blashill. He brought Blashill back and didn't blame him for the roster he had to coach. Even after firing him, Yzerman praised Blashill for the work he did despite thinking that a change was

A couple of things, we had no idea how much Benning supported Green because Benning was absolutely absent and refused to address anything.

I’ve said this before, I am in design so if I was paid million+ then I am pretty damn sure my profile would be very public. Also the nature of my work is that people shit on it all the time, everyone have opinions and we all just eat the feedback and try to make it better. i guess in our profession we are more aware of this because critiques are part of our process and it’s essential for us to know how to critique the work and not the person.

With that context, this is why all this “dragging Bruce through the mud” makes no sense to me, what JR said about the system not being there, preseason not being good, they are all true and fair statements about the outcome of his work. Are they not? I would expect a more detail tear down critique internal but considering it is external, i wouldn’t expect that kind of fidelity.

Also I wouldn’t see this as blaming. Blaming Bruce would be seeing JR said they gave him everything and he failed. JR has said he also failed his part as well. Yeah management didn’t give him everything he needs but what BB also fumbled what was given to him. Like we have a top 10 scoring team with league worse defense and a historic bad PK. Like we know what management want, they want a system and BB simply has not implemented anything resembling a system right?

Also BB has 1000 game experience, right. He has been fired from the Caps, Wild and the Ducks. If anything, he knows that he is going to be fired considering he himself was talking about playoffs and we are sitting 6th last.

Detroit is in the process of exiting a rebuild, that’s like the hardest part. I don’t follow the Detroit but when you watch them, do you see the same kind of chaos that you see with the Canucks every night?

Actually let’s be honest here, when we all watch the Canucks, does anyone here think that’s a well coached team and they are doing their best and at the end of the day, the only issue is there is just not enough talent. Anyone wants to come out and make that claim?

 

[4Twenty]

Jim Benning regularly stated Green was his coach. And he was immediately extended following the season. Why lie?

Also when I watch the Canucks I see bad play, bad coaching, bad management and zero organizational leadership.

 

[arttk]

Oh I am not so sure Rutherford didn't, this could be "Managing up".

You never know, it isn't the amount of money spent it is the cap hit. I am not sure Ottawa has the cap space but Arizona need cap hits that are bigger than money spent. Myers is a +5 million cap hit.

He is also the highly valued RHD and the way he has maintain his composure in the room as a leader has value.

Arizona can offer up a 1rst easily, you really have to look the players from a different point of view.

Other RHD have gotten much more than just a first round pick, hell the media are saying Schenn could be worth a 1rt or 2nd round pick

But it eats up a contract spot, adds to the cap for 8 years, does not bring back anything in return and who is there to replace him? And I posted before he was never a defensive dman any more than Hughes is, he was and is an offensive dman.

Still there is some reason that this wasn't put to bed a long time ago without all the drama.
Management vetted and hired Yeo, a NHL head coach as an assistant, if Bruce was such a problem for management all they had to do is what they are going to do soon, fire him without the months long ridiculing.

If they do hire The Bookie he will not have a good time here.

You ought to see the extremes CDC goes to in order to keep the kombya going.

19 million over 8 years, whereas a 50% retain is 15 mil over 4 years and the retention spot remains open and there would be some sort of a return.

It was obvious why Linden was brought on board, to soothe the mob but I do think that they had the idea that Quinn would be the mentor like Bowman was in Chicago. That would have changed things.
But don't give Linden an award, if he had put TEAM first a rebuild may have started earlier and vets may have been traded. Benning gets a lot of flack for that, letting vets go for nothing but Linden has some responsibility there too.
He hated it when he was traded and I think that colored his decision making to be more player than team.

How the team is playing is the result of roster construction and demands on player to ply outside of their comfort zone. The players cannot be blamed for taking the money offered.
That the team would win IF Demko played like a Vezina candidate? I'll let that one slip because to me it is like a coach saying "If we scored an those two goals we would have won" or "If we stop that shot we win". Food for fodder.

It isn't JUST the easy season the team has to be good in. BTW I am in the camp of the last 6 years kind of shows what the team has and that getting older without enough young players doesn't make a team better if it has a losing culture. So no, I didn't think the team progressed as far or fast as others in the division let alone the league.

I think I just read that Pettersson refused to answer some questions in the post game. I can't find that

Well the point is Boston won’t take on OEL, especially after using that spot to get Lindholm. Like nobody is going to take OEL off our hands, you would need multiple 1sts and god knows what else for another team to bite.

I think most people are quite rational here but it seems like a lot of folks have basically decided that well if management refuses to go the route which I think is best and inevitable for the team to go towards them they must be shit. And then it’s less about oh let’s talk about what they did and let’s focus on pointing out everything is bad even when it’s not.

This is very different compared to Benning times because 99.9% of Benning moves were shit and there was really no way to rationalize it. Now we are just like over dramatizing everything.

 

[arttk]

Jim Benning regularly stated Green was his coach. And he was immediately extended following the season. Why lie?

Also when I watch the Canucks I see bad play, bad coaching, bad management and zero organizational leadership.

Well I don’t think Benning is lying. But at the same time Benning avoid the media and any kind of accountability when the team had an awful start last season. Well he avoid the media and any kind of accountability since he “ran out of time”. And even then, there were rumors last season during the awful start that they were looking at replacing Green with Claude Julien and that was Benning’s choice. Yeah the same damn rumors were around.

Yeah so in some sense you agree with me that this is a poorly coached team and while i don’t agree with replacing BB right now, but at least from the merit level there is actual justification. It’s not just about the result in the standings, it’s also how the team is achieving it. Are management also responsible? Yes they are and now they have decided to make the change, there is no more excuses. There is no excuse of oh that wasn’t our guy, we want a system guy to start.

 

[VanillaCoke]

These new cowards still silent like the old incompetent cowards..?

 

[racerjoe]

These new cowards still silent like the old incompetent cowards..?

They spoke to the media less than a week ago, and answered questions until there was no more. I mean there is a lot to criticize but silent?

 

[VanillaCoke]

They spoke to the media less than a week ago, and answered questions until there was no more. I mean there is a lot to criticize but silent?

Mhmmm that was monday on pearson/retool, and yet the BB circus drags on without a word from the organization on what or why.

This is a professional sports franchise. (allegedly)

 

[racerjoe]

Mhmmm that was monday on pearson/retool, and yet the BB circus drags on without a word from the organization on what or why.

This is a professional sports franchise. (allegedly)

The have handled the bruce stuff terribly. I have said so... that is not what you said.

The fact is they have spoken, and even about this. We don't have to like what was said or how it is being handled, and it is fair to call them on that. I am calling them on handling this terribly. However they have spoken so your comment was wrong.

 

[TruGr1t]

Very much looking forward to the broad butchering that management and ownership are going to receive during the national broadcast today. Also more Bruce chants.

 

[arttk]

Mhmmm that was monday on pearson/retool, and yet the BB circus drags on without a word from the organization on what or why.

This is a professional sports franchise. (allegedly)

I mean if they feel like they made their point, coming out and saying the same shit will just feed the media frenzy.
So far…
Media managed to dig up news about Tocchet and good for them, that’s their job.

JR already came out and said they talked to a whole bunch of people. Seems like radical transparency is his thing.

Now the media is like how can they still let BB be the coach, do the right thing and fire him.

Mmmm hmm so the media found evidence that management wants to replace BB and now they are flinging that evidence around and saying how could you not fire BB now that we’ve found out. Is this not like a prime example of media generated frenzy? Well that’s kinda sports “journalism” for you I guess.

and I guess the point is, should the org do things on their own timeline or make adjustments based on the media narrative? It really depends on your perspective.

 

[me2]

What a way to run an organization. I’m embarrassed to be a fan. Holy shit. Even during the Keenan years that wansnt the case

That was the low point of my Canuck fandom. WAS.

 

[iFan]

They spoke to the media less than a week ago, and answered questions until there was no more. I mean there is a lot to criticize but silent?

they? You mean Rutherford because the GM was missing…. Like always.

 

[me2]

Sure yeah they have failed to achieve what they want to achieve this season. Typically management gets like 3 years and if they continue to fail next year then they are most likely gone very fast.
That doesn’t change the fact BB has failed to deliver what was asked of him right? He was asked to build a system and evidently he has not done that. This team is just as chaotic as it was last year if not more. So if he is not delivering, then why shouldn’t management look for another coach. I don’t agree with it, I think we should stick with BB and continue to tank but it seems like a lot of tanking folks here now have switched to let’s honor BB’s dignity instead of protect the tank.

Management treated Bordeau like shit when he delivered 32-15-10.

 

[theguardianII]

Well the point is Boston won’t take on OEL, especially after using that spot to get Lindholm. Like nobody is going to take OEL off our hands, you would need multiple 1sts and god knows what else for another team to bite.

I think most people are quite rational here but it seems like a lot of folks have basically decided that well if management refuses to go the route which I think is best and inevitable for the team to go towards them they must be shit. And then it’s less about oh let’s talk about what they did and let’s focus on pointing out everything is bad even when it’s not.

This is very different compared to Benning times because 99.9% of Benning moves were shit and there was really no way to rationalize it. Now we are just like over dramatizing everything.

2014 to now 2023.

That is considered two hockey generations.

What is there that is good about what has been happening?

How many years can Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Demko and Hughes be considered the great youth on the team? How many years cheering for their exploits? And team depth?

When actions elicit a certain reaction that reaction can become a habit.

Sometimes watching can lead to learning. So for the time between 2014 and 2023 what has been taught by the Canucks? Smart people will eventually start to look at why?

Why have other teams been worse but are now far better?
Why have Stanley cup winners won? What did they do?
Why don't the Canucks have cap space?

Even if some of the answers are easily found then why did they do them if they were that easy to find?

I am probably considered a conspiracy nut because I don't things "just happen" all the time. To me there has to be a reason why Bruce was not let go if that is what they wanted to do a long time ago.

So I looked at the schedule, it is perfect for a new guy coming in. Two below .500 teams right off the bat if Bruce is canned after tonight's game. A road trip starting after a break in the schedule. Then playing teams that will be deciding on tanking for a better draft position with other teams secured in their playoff spots so not as invested in winning as keeping healthy. The new guy gets the 3rd easiest schedule in the league.

There is a good chance there will be a bump again, just like last year. And some years in the past when Arizona, Buffalo and Vancouver had the best records in the league for a couple of weeks near the end of the season but all still ended up at the bottom.

If there is a bump with a new coach what do you think they do? At the TDL? At the draft? Will they want the new guy to have time to see if he can change the spots on the leopard?

IMO what happens between now and the TDL will signal if any change will happen at all other than a coach.

Here is one single "What if", what if Schenn decides to go?

You know the Canucks have never done a rebuild or won a cup either.

 

[racerjoe]

they? You mean Rutherford because the GM was missing…. Like always.

Was the question about a specific part of management or the team, it seamed like it was the team they were talking about.

I also find it funny on Friday, the Vancast was talking about how JR had to talk to the media, no Alvin, then he does and now we hear yeah but the other guy... and not from you, I know you just did, but media was asking.

 

[Hansen]

I'm fascinated by the storm/traction the frenzied media is able to generate.

Nothing can make me hate Benning more, an unsympathetic old manager is leagues more preferable to an incompetent clown given endless rope to screw up again and again.

This isnt media frenzy. This is a team who has preached an iron wall against leaks, but has very loudly let it leak about a new coach, prior to the removal of the current coach. The management has blasted Boudreau every chance they get. Its f***ing cowardly and disgusting. The moment the new coach is leaked move Bruce out and do it with dignity.

The fact that the new additions are JR cronies reportedly only makes it worse.

 

[theguardianII]

The have handled the bruce stuff terribly. I have said so... that is not what you said.

The fact is they have spoken, and even about this. We don't have to like what was said or how it is being handled, and it is fair to call them on that. I am calling them on handling this terribly. However they have spoken so your comment was wrong.

I really like the communication Rutherford gives

BUT

Talk is cheap. They talk the talk but will they walk the walk?

In other words will they act on what they say or is it simply to platicate fans to make them think they voices are heard?

This isnt media frenzy. This is a team who has preached an iron wall against leaks, but has very loudly let it leak about a new coach, prior to the removal of the current coach. The management has blasted Boudreau every chance they get. Its f***ing cowardly and disgusting. The moment the new coach is leaked move Bruce out and do it with dignity.

The fact that the new additions are JR cronies reportedly only makes it worse.

Ya this doesn't help their case much with RD does it?

 

[racerjoe]

I really like the communication Rutherford gives

BUT

Talk is cheap. They talk the talk but will they walk the walk?

In other words will they act on what they say or is it simply to platicate fans to make them think they voices are heard?


Ya this doesn't help their case much with RD does it?

They have put themselves in a corner for when they should be judged. Talk is cheap and they put a deadline on things so lets see.

Having said that I get why mid season we don't have a ton of player movement. I won't complain as long as things are completed when they should be.

 

[me2]

I feel bad for Bruce, but I don't get the anger of the fanbase. This is just JR/Allvin underestimating the media frenzy of the TO/MTL/Van market spotlight. Bruce is still being paid, JR is honest that he is not his guy, bottomline, Bruce is not winning, and the team doesn't want to win, so they are not in a hurry to fire him. As much as the team said they play for him, they sure as heck aren't blocking shots and hustling enough to win. And if the fans are so reactive to negative news, how can this market stomach a scorched earth rebuild??

JR had the right idea. All the suckage of a scorched earth rebuild and none of the benefits. It's a bold strategy, throw in some casual cruelty and *chef's kiss*

 

[arttk]

Management treated Bordeau like shit when he delivered 32-15-10.

They made it super clear that they do not see BB as their guy and they didn’t want him to pickup the option.

They did also acknowledge the job that BB has done but he was not the guy they wanted.

 

[me2]

Which is exactly my point, which is that Emilie Castinguay’s job is partially to do with the movement of contracts to be able to maximize our cap flexibility.

On top of that, we couldn’t have afforded another million for Boeser by offering his QO without moving out a contract or not signing Mikeyhev.

The difference between Boeser QO and his current salary is just 850k. Start with a 22 man roster.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Very much looking forward to the broad butchering that management and ownership are going to receive during the national broadcast today. Also more Bruce chants.

Yep...Organizational dysfunction will be on full display this evening on HNIC, with tons of ammo and fodder to fill up the intermissions.

Coast to coast.

Cant say it wasnt well earned/deserved.