Major Trade coming this offseason.

[Ziggdiezan]

I feel like we got more out of Boyle and Plekanec in prior one-and-done playoffs and those guys "only" cost 2nd round picks (those were also dumb trades).

Foligno at the two 4ths would have been a waste of assets, but a 1st too? Yuck!

With Jeff Carter going for a 3rd + 4th it looks really bad. Especially as Carter played well. Also liked palmeri

 

[HellasLEAF]

If they had the balls what they should do is trade Tavares and Marner. You keep Willie and Matty. Take the 22 million and improve the team with focus on defence. Leafs defence was 2nd best to Habs and we wonder why we lost. In each of the knockout matches Game 5, 6 and 7 when push came to shove they just shut us down and we could do essentially nothing against them. Leafs defence was 2nd best vs Columbus too. I bet I could go through each of the Leaf playoff losses and find Leafs were 2nd best on defence.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If they had the balls what they should do is trade Tavares and Marner. You keep Willie and Matty. Take the 22 million and improve the team with focus on defence. Leafs defence was 2nd best to Habs and we wonder why we lost. In each of the knockout matches Game 5, 6 and 7 when push came to shove they just shut us down and we could do essentially nothing against them. Leafs defence was 2nd best vs Columbus too. I bet I could go through each of the Leaf playoff losses and find Leafs were 2nd best on defence.

Tavares would have to say yes to a trade. He won't.

 

[Boxscore]

If they had the balls what they should do is trade Tavares and Marner.

There's no turning back on JT -- he's here and we're all in with him. As for Marner, I think the Leafs need to at least privately test the market. We cannot afford to trade Marner for half price, but if there is a whopper of a deal out there, he shouldn't be off-limits. Say for example, Philly offers Provorov and Konecny for Marner and Liljegren. The Leafs must consider that -- a young, top pairing defenseman and a pesky winger who can score 25-30 goals.

You keep Willie and Matty. Take the 22 million and improve the team with focus on defence. Leafs defence was 2nd best to Habs and we wonder why we lost. In each of the knockout matches Game 5, 6 and 7 when push came to shove they just shut us down and we could do essentially nothing against them. Leafs defence was 2nd best vs Columbus too. I bet I could go through each of the Leaf playoff losses and find Leafs were 2nd best on defence.

I think Nylander is starting to look like a bargain -- moving him now would be potentially foolish, unless another team is willing to overpay. Trading Matthews isn't even a discussion, unless he eventually wants out.

Adding a high-end defenseman and a couple of players who play like they hate losing is crucial. Dubas has his work cutout for him.

 

[Gabriel426]

There's no turning back on JT -- he's here and we're all in with him. As for Marner, I think the Leafs need to at least privately test the market. We cannot afford to trade Marner for half price, but if there is a whopper of a deal out there, he shouldn't be off-limits. Say for example, Philly offers Provorov and Konecny for Marner and Liljegren. The Leafs must consider that -- a young, top pairing defenseman and a pesky winger who can score 25-30 goals.



I think Nylander is starting to look like a bargain -- moving him now would be potentially foolish, unless another team is willing to overpay. Trading Matthews isn't even a discussion, unless he eventually wants out.

Adding a high-end defenseman and a couple of players who play like they hate losing is crucial. Dubas has his work cutout for him.

I don’t think anyone is safe after this playoffs.
It all depends on the return package. They should not dump players bc some might not get it done in playoffs but they are still talented players.

 

[Boxscore]

I don’t think anyone is safe after this playoffs.

I think Tavares is almost as "safe" as Matthews. For one, he has a complete NMC, so he'd have to agree to a trade. The Leafs recently brought him in and handed him the code to the vault and placed the "C" on his chest -- that's how much this regime thinks of him. He also has local ties and the Leafs played up the "coming home" angle so much, they can't call a Mulligan now. Doing so would be damaging to the team, the players in the room, and the Leafs reputation, both in Toronto, and around the league. Tavares will likely retire a Maple Leaf -- hopefully it's with a Cup ring.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Tavares is almost as "safe" as Matthews. For one, he has a complete NMC, so he'd have to agree to a trade. The Leafs recently brought him in and handed him the code to the vault and placed the "C" on his chest -- that's how much this regime thinks of him. He also has local ties and the Leafs played up the "coming home" angle so much, they can't call a Mulligan now. Doing so would be damaging to the team, the players in the room, and the Leafs reputation, both in Toronto, and around the league. Tavares will likely retire a Maple Leaf -- hopefully it's with a Cup ring.

My point was more like nobody should feel safe bc the team is not heading toward the right direction.

 

[Boxscore]

My point was more like nobody should feel safe bc the team is not heading toward the right direction.

I agree with you on that. Not necessarily about the direction but based on their annual playoff performances.

 

[Gabriel426]

I agree with you on that. Not necessarily about the direction but based on their annual playoff performances.

Well the goal is to win the Cup and right now I have more confidence in Dubas finding better bargain and improvement in bottom 6 than AM and Marner leading the Leafs to playoff series Win.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

To Toronto-
Extended Seth Jones
Boone Jenner

To Columbus-
Marner
Holl
Engvall

Kekalainen isn’t that dumb unfortunately...that’s essentially Jones for Marner and Holl and Engvall for Jenner

 

[ottomaddox]

Win or lose, we all know our core is seriously flawed. Is this the year we finally see a major trade from within the “core”?
I doubt we look to trade matthews.
Do we ask Tavares to waive?
Do we move Reilly with a year left on his deal? Do we resign him for big money?
Do we move Nylander (the only one who is playing very well)?

Or.... do we do what most people are probably thinking?... Trade Mitch Marner.
It seems like the most sensible thing to do to reshape a very flawed core. Does anyone believe this core can achieve great things (salaries considered)?

Marner for Eichel? (What needs to be added?)
Marner for picks and prospects (what can we expect)?

Will Dubas even be the guy making the moves if we lose game 7?

I think the answers are fleeting for this GM I'm afraid.

The answer to your most focused question is no. It's going to take a lot more than just moving Mitch Marner. The Stanley Cup is not won with 1 or 2 players. You need depth.

If there were do over would this team win with a different player? I doubt it. Maybe they would get past MTL, but nothing more.

Toronto will always have the challenge of the salary cap and their inflated salaries. There's no other way to look at it. These contracts are handcuffing the Leafs from the get go.

Even if we lose Marner, we then are looking at Nylander, Tavares, Matthews taking 40% of the cap.

Dubas did not learn from the Marleau experience. It's ironic because he had to practically beg teams to take him from Toronto.

So what does he do? Bring in more veterans. Ok they didn't cost much, but they were costly in ice time allocation. Why was Thornton granted so much privilege? Probably because of an agreement: sign me for the minimum, but I want to play a significant role.

Next year will be the same even without Marner. Dubas will be forced to select from the fringes: diminutive wingers with skill, veteran players running on fumes, reclamation projects, the odd Toronto Marlie graduate of a thin class, etc.

With this formula in mind does this sound like a Stanley Cup winner? Is it even good enough to be a Wild Card team in a division with BOS, TBL, MTL, and OTT?

With that in mind is Keefe a guy that's going to get the most out of this group of misfits?

I wish I had an answer for how to right this ship. I just know it's not working.

 

[ottomaddox]

Well the goal is to win the Cup and right now I have more confidence in Dubas finding better bargain and improvement in bottom 6 than AM and Marner leading the Leafs to playoff series Win.

Why do you feel that way?

 

[sxvnert]

I sure hope not. We need another stud blueliner like Jones or Hamilton PLUS Rielly -- not in lieu of Rielly.

Its the only move Kyle has in his pocket that will silence the critics. Expect more Muzzin/Brodie types added to the top four with Sandin/Bogo on the bottom pair.
Rielly can be moved for a young top six LW winger + 1st round pick/prospect.

 

[Arzak]

No major trades coming.

Anyone knows if Matthes is as thick with GM as Marner?

We have three years, at this point it's 50-50. #34 might as well gather few personal accolades before joining someone for the Cup run.

If he resigns, great, if he won't , can we afford letting him go to UFA with no assets recouped ?

What would that mean come year 4 ? Another rebuild? Build around Tavares on the one his contract?

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I think the answers are fleeting for this GM I'm afraid.

The answer to your most focused question is no. It's going to take a lot more than just moving Mitch Marner. The Stanley Cup is not won with 1 or 2 players. You need depth.

If there were do over would this team win with a different player? I doubt it. Maybe they would get past MTL, but nothing more.

Toronto will always have the challenge of the salary cap and their inflated salaries. There's no other way to look at it. These contracts are handcuffing the Leafs from the get go.

Even if we lose Marner, we then are looking at Nylander, Tavares, Matthews taking 40% of the cap.

Dubas did not learn from the Marleau experience. It's ironic because he had to practically beg teams to take him from Toronto.

So what does he do? Bring in more veterans. Ok they didn't cost much, but they were costly in ice time allocation. Why was Thornton granted so much privilege? Probably because of an agreement: sign me for the minimum, but I want to play a significant role.

Next year will be the same even without Marner. Dubas will be forced to select from the fringes: diminutive wingers with skill, veteran players running on fumes, reclamation projects, the odd Toronto Marlie graduate of a thin class, etc.

With this formula in mind does this sound like a Stanley Cup winner? Is it even good enough to be a Wild Card team in a division with BOS, TBL, MTL, and OTT?

With that in mind is Keefe a guy that's going to get the most out of this group of misfits?

I wish I had an answer for how to right this ship. I just know it's not working.

Cup contenders are built with a combination of top end talent and depth.

Fact is Matthews & to an even greater extent Marner never should have got those deals in terms of both AAV & term coming off their ELC's but here we are.

I don't see Matthews going anywhere, JT has a NTC and Nylander is paid significantly less well showing up these playoffs.

Marner based on comparables should have been paid roughly 8M to 9M similar to what Aho (8.46M) or Rantannen (9.25). Saving even a few million would have gone a long way to having quality depth.

Aside from the contract comps based on Marner's last 3 playoffs I see him at best the #4 most valuable team but more likely #5 piece on a Cup or team that has gone the 2nd round or beyond multiple times which is closer value to a player in the 6M to 7M range. His game just simply doesn't translate to being a dominant player in the playoffs when skills he lacks like size, tenacity, driving the net, being POS to play against win. Also aside from very very few exceptions wingers don't influence the game the same as C's or D. This team badly needs quality depth in the 2nd/3rd line and the Leafs are horribly imbalanced.

Trading Marner alone can completely rebalance the team and add that 2nd/high end 3rd line depth issue.

An example of how the cap could be redistributed is: Marner (10.93) + 1 or 2 1-2M depth forwards that guys like Simmonds, Engvall take up so roughly 12M to 15M to spread around over a few forwards like teams that are still playing did with Eberle (5.5), Pageau (5), Saad (5), Burakovsky (4.9) who were all brought in from the outside and on teams still in the playoffs or the cup winners, St. Louis had two years ago with had Perron (4), Schenn (5.125) and Bozak (5) as outside help. Note that every single example I chose was a player in the 4 to 6M range. There are many way to slice it up but Marner's 11M alone is enough to completely transform the makeup of this team and make us deeper and significantly harder team to play against.

 

[cannucky]

Kekalainen isn’t that dumb unfortunately...that’s essentially Jones for Marner and Holl and Engvall for Jenner

Not to mention he can do basic math , 14.15 for 9.1 doesn't fit into the Blue jackets cap with 14 free agents to sign . Marner isn't going anywhere his cap and actual salary are both too high and Columbus has given up half the team already they're not dumping Jones at this point .

 

[cannucky]

Arguing about who should or shouldn't have gotten what deal is stupid , if wishes were fishes we'd all eat for free . The only guy in the true big 3 that has value above his deal and is movable is Mathews and then only to Arizona who has a bunch of cap space opening up from several older players not being re-signed so what would a package from them look like ? Do they pull the trigger on say Schmaltz or Dvorak , plus Chychrun and maybe a Fisher plus a good pic or two ? Whats the poster boy worth in his hometown ?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

If they had the balls what they should do is trade Tavares and Marner. You keep Willie and Matty. Take the 22 million and improve the team with focus on defence. Leafs defence was 2nd best to Habs and we wonder why we lost. In each of the knockout matches Game 5, 6 and 7 when push came to shove they just shut us down and we could do essentially nothing against them. Leafs defence was 2nd best vs Columbus too. I bet I could go through each of the Leaf playoff losses and find Leafs were 2nd best on defence.

Defense and tending always win in playoffs .. experienced hockey people have known this for years .. but we have an experimental prez/GM in charge now who think they are gonna re invent da sport .. they will learn da hard way like others before as playoff hockey is faster and there is less time and space for skilled forwards to work .. penalties go way down as refs decide to let players decide games for themselves

 

[Acesup]

I think Tavares is almost as "safe" as Matthews. For one, he has a complete NMC, so he'd have to agree to a trade. The Leafs recently brought him in and handed him the code to the vault and placed the "C" on his chest -- that's how much this regime thinks of him. He also has local ties and the Leafs played up the "coming home" angle so much, they can't call a Mulligan now. Doing so would be damaging to the team, the players in the room, and the Leafs reputation, both in Toronto, and around the league. Tavares will likely retire a Maple Leaf -- hopefully it's with a Cup ring.

Lmao cup ring. Hopefully it's with a playoff round win.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Tavares would have to say yes to a trade. He won't.

I think you give Tavares 1 more season and then tell him he has to waive his NMC or he is going to sit in the stands as a scratch until he agrees. When we signed him to that deal...it was based on him performing at that level. He has never in my opinion done that...not even once. We didn't pay 11M for a guy to put up just barely a point per game..we paid him to lead us where we hadn't been before. We gave him the C and he has stunk in every single playoff series he played...bar none.

He didn't hold the team hostage like Marner did to get the deal...but he still needs to be better or else GTFO. He will age badly...can hardly skate now at 30...imagine him at 33 or 34. He will need a wheel chair to get down the ice.....not a fan of him at all.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

No major trades coming.

Anyone knows if Matthes is as thick with GM as Marner?

We have three years, at this point it's 50-50. #34 might as well gather few personal accolades before joining someone for the Cup run.

If he resigns, great, if he won't , can we afford letting him go to UFA with no assets recouped ?

What would that mean come year 4 ? Another rebuild? Build around Tavares on the one his contract?

If you trade Marner for Eichel...Matthews is probably gone after 3yrs...but you still have Eichel in the fold and work around him if you can. I think having Eichel on the team would actually be a sum equaling more than its parts type scenario because they have a bit of a friendly rivalry on who's better. It would make them both compete for the mantel of best player and benefit both them and the team.

I just can't see it happening..but it would be a trade that Dubas can say he had to do because a chance to get an Eichel comes along very rarely.

 

[Captain14]

I think you give Tavares 1 more season and then tell him he has to waive his NMC or he is going to sit in the stands as a scratch until he agrees. When we signed him to that deal...it was based on him performing at that level. He has never in my opinion done that...not even once. We didn't pay 11M for a guy to put up just barely a point per game..we paid him to lead us where we hadn't been before. We gave him the C and he has stunk in every single playoff series he played...bar none.

He didn't hold the team hostage like Marner did to get the deal...but he still needs to be better or else GTFO. He will age badly...can hardly skate now at 30...imagine him at 33 or 34. He will need a wheel chair to get down the ice.....not a fan of him at all.

Tavares will essentially be a 3rd line center in 1-2 more years. We are screwed with that deal and I don’t see any way out.

 

[Gabriel426]

Why do you feel that way?

Marner is 0 goals for 18 games, that’s three years in a row.
AM had not been great for two years too. His defence is good but not dominating and he needs to score.

 

[ottomaddox]

Cup contenders are built with a combination of top end talent and depth.

Fact is Matthews & to an even greater extent Marner never should have got those deals in terms of both AAV & term coming off their ELC's but here we are.

I don't see Matthews going anywhere, JT has a NTC and Nylander is paid significantly less well showing up these playoffs.

Marner based on comparables should have been paid roughly 8M to 9M similar to what Aho (8.46M) or Rantannen (9.25). Saving even a few million would have gone a long way to having quality depth.

Aside from the contract comps based on Marner's last 3 playoffs I see him at best the #4 most valuable team but more likely #5 piece on a Cup or team that has gone the 2nd round or beyond multiple times which is closer value to a player in the 6M to 7M range. His game just simply doesn't translate to being a dominant player in the playoffs when skills he lacks like size, tenacity, driving the net, being POS to play against win. Also aside from very very few exceptions wingers don't influence the game the same as C's or D. This team badly needs quality depth in the 2nd/3rd line and the Leafs are horribly imbalanced.

Trading Marner alone can completely rebalance the team and add that 2nd/high end 3rd line depth issue.

An example of how the cap could be redistributed is: Marner (10.93) + 1 or 2 1-2M depth forwards that guys like Simmonds, Engvall take up so roughly 12M to 15M to spread around over a few forwards like teams that are still playing did with Eberle (5.5), Pageau (5), Saad (5), Burakovsky (4.9) who were all brought in from the outside and on teams still in the playoffs or the cup winners, St. Louis had two years ago with had Perron (4), Schenn (5.125) and Bozak (5) as outside help. Note that every single example I chose was a player in the 4 to 6M range. There are many way to slice it up but Marner's 11M alone is enough to completely transform the makeup of this team and make us deeper and significantly harder team to play against.

You make a lot of sense, and many good points. I just don't understand why Dubas hasn't already entertained these ideas.

You're offering this for free, but he's being paid for this.

It might just so be that Marner gets moved to acquire all the surrounding pieces for depth.

I just think Dubas is married to this group. He will die using the horses he rode with.

The first sign will be Keefe. If he's not fired then I don't know what to make of Dubas' attitude and willingness to admit that his design is flawed.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Arguing about who should or shouldn't have gotten what deal is stupid , if wishes were fishes we'd all eat for free . The only guy in the true big 3 that has value above his deal and is movable is Mathews and then only to Arizona who has a bunch of cap space opening up from several older players not being re-signed so what would a package from them look like ? Do they pull the trigger on say Schmaltz or Dvorak , plus Chychrun and maybe a Fisher plus a good pic or two ? Whats the poster boy worth in his hometown ?

I think you wait until just before his NMC clause kicks in (thanks Duby) and make him an extension offer. If he says he wants to wait...he ain't signing here and you trade him for a boatload. You just cannot let these guys walk away for nothing and yet also not let them dictate the terms like they did the first time. I always say that Lindros should be given a bigger percentage of the gratitude for the Avs winning those cups. He forced the trade that in hindsight proves that the theory of whoever gets the best player wins the trade...every time. It was not so with the Nords and Philly...Nords won that trade in a landslide.