Major Trade coming this offseason.

[17 Clark]

Understood, but you were talking about the Dubas being better at filling out the bottom 6.

He’s not even good at filling out the top six Anybody could’ve handled that money to them

 

[darrylsittler27]

This team has no chance with Boy Buffoon at the helm. The ownership are too stupid to see the damage that has been done to this pathetic sports franchise. No one will care what these guys do next regular season, their core is weak and overpaid. The Kracken will win before the Leafs and no one will want to play here now.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

When did this board become a cesspool of boomer posting?

the shitty hot takery in this thread is awful.

 

[Syed Ammad rizvi]

Don't worry, Mats Sundin...er, Auston Matthews doesn't need a setup man! He'll do it all himself!

He should be able to. The guy makes 12 mil a year

 

[HamiltonNHL]

The NFL allows players to take a pay cut.

The NHL should do the same.

 

[socko]

He should be able to. The guy makes 12 mil a year

That's in Dubas Dollars. That's only like $10 in regular money.

 

[Garthinater]

When did this board become a cesspool of boomer posting?

the shitty hot takery in this thread is awful.

Why are you playing the ageism card?

Leaf fans of all ages are sick and tired of dubas, his lack of results and his virute signalling.

Its time we get a real gm who knows how the game works. Not some stats nerd.

Man I wish we kept lou.

 

[Syed Ammad rizvi]

That's in Dubas Dollars. That's only like $10 in regular money.

Lol

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I'm not giving up on this core. They need a strategy now, not wholesale changes. Plus we got buried by a few rookie mistakes. That typically only happens once or twice and makes you a better player. It's been a few days now and I'm ready to move forward.

- Fix special teams.
- Don't be a Babcock and adjust to what's obviously not working next time.
- Continue to improve the D (I happen to like the D core right now but it's never enough).
- Stop the stupid slow, old player pickups.

 

[Prominence]

Why are you playing the ageism card?

Leaf fans of all ages are sick and tired of dubas, his lack of results and his virute signalling.

Its time we get a real gm who knows how the game works. Not some stats nerd.

Man I wish we kept lou.

He signed marleau for 6 mil for 3 years when it was clear that third year would have interfered with the marner and matthews extensions. Marleau was a 37 year old who provided no grit and sub standard scoring. He also signed zaitsev for 5 years and can’t really shut down opposing players. He also signed martin for 2mil over 4 years where while he did fight, the team still got bounced out of the first round. It doesn’t take a genius to draft matthews or liljegren when he fell to us to 17th. The 2016 and 2017 drafts were also a s***show with only grundstrom, a 2nd round pick, having actual potential. Lou allowed the drafting of an overager in korshkov at 31 when he literally could have drafted anyone else. People like to attribute nyi’s success to lou, but really, 90% of it is due to barry trotz’s coaching and system.

What a lot of people on this board seem to forget is tavares went down in game 1. Doing simple salary cap math, leafs were competing with 72mil in value against habs 82 (albeit they had some inefficiencies). That’s a pretty huge piece to lose. And then we lost muzzin, another 5mil hit.

 

[Gabriel426]

He signed marleau for 6 mil for 3 years when it was clear that third year would have interfered with the marner and matthews extensions. Marleau was a 37 year old who provided no grit and sub standard scoring. He also signed zaitsev for 5 years and can’t really shut down opposing players. He also signed martin for 2mil over 4 years where while he did fight, the team still got bounced out of the first round. It doesn’t take a genius to draft matthews or liljegren when he fell to us to 17th. The 2016 and 2017 drafts were also a s***show with only grundstrom, a 2nd round pick, having actual potential. Lou allowed the drafting of an overager in korshkov at 31 when he literally could have drafted anyone else. People like to attribute nyi’s success to lou, but really, 90% of it is due to barry trotz’s coaching and system.

What a lot of people on this board seem to forget is tavares went down in game 1. Doing simple salary cap math, leafs were competing with 72mil in value against habs 82 (albeit they had some inefficiencies). That’s a pretty huge piece to lose. And then we lost muzzin, another 5mil hit.

They did win 3 games without JT. Why can’t they win the 4th without him?
As for Lou Vs Dubas, every GMs will make mistakes. Also, I really don’t see the point of comparing them bc not like Lou won anything with the Leafs roster either.

 

[CelticDruid]

When did this board become a cesspool of boomer posting?

the shitty hot takery in this thread is awful.

Your post wins first prize in the ageist sweepstakes.

First Prize.

A years supply of pre-used Depends.

 

[Garthinater]

He signed marleau for 6 mil for 3 years when it was clear that third year would have interfered with the marner and matthews extensions. Marleau was a 37 year old who provided no grit and sub standard scoring. He also signed zaitsev for 5 years and can’t really shut down opposing players. He also signed martin for 2mil over 4 years where while he did fight, the team still got bounced out of the first round. It doesn’t take a genius to draft matthews or liljegren when he fell to us to 17th. The 2016 and 2017 drafts were also a s***show with only grundstrom, a 2nd round pick, having actual potential. Lou allowed the drafting of an overager in korshkov at 31 when he literally could have drafted anyone else. People like to attribute nyi’s success to lou, but really, 90% of it is due to barry trotz’s coaching and system.

What a lot of people on this board seem to forget is tavares went down in game 1. Doing simple salary cap math, leafs were competing with 72mil in value against habs 82 (albeit they had some inefficiencies). That’s a pretty huge piece to lose. And then we lost muzzin, another 5mil hit.

The 3rd year only became a problem because dubas decided to give matthews 11.34 x 5, marner 10.9 x 6 and nylander 6.9 x 6.

Most thought we would get all 3 for about 24 mil per year. It ended up costing us almost 30 mil! And none are max term either lmao

Lou was our gm for 3 years. The first year we came dead last and got to select matthews 1st OA.

The next 2 seasons we made the playoffs. Most teams don't make the playoffs after coming dead last the year before. We also hadn't made the PO 2 years in a row since around 2004! We even set a franchise record in points just 2 years after coming dead last!

Dubas has been here for 3 years. He got to take over a 105 point team. Lou inherited a 68 point team.

First year under kyle we lost to the Bruins in the first round and actually had a worse regular season than the year before.

The following year we lost to columbus in the qualifier and didn't even make the playoffs.

This year we got a very favourable division and came first only to lose in the first round to the habs, one of our most hated rivals.

Now compare that to lou since he went to the Islanders.

Lou inherited an 80 point islanders and the next year had they reach 103 points! (More than dubas and the leafs). They also made it to the 2nd round.

His 2nd year they made it to the Eastern conference finals!

Now 2021, lou and the islanders are still fighting for the cup whiel dubas and the leafs are once again golfing.

Every single year since lou went to the Islanders and Kyle took over the leafs, the islanders have gone further than us.

It amazes me the mental gymnastics you are able to perform in order to convince yourself that lou is bad and dubas is good. The results are right there in front of you. You just look incredibly foolish denying the obvious.

 

[Gabriel426]

The 3rd year only became a problem because dubas decided to give matthews 11.34 x 5, marner 10.9 x 6 and nylander 6.9 x 6.

Most thought we would get all 3 for about 24 mil per year. It ended up costing us almost 30 mil! And none are max term either lmao

Lou was our gm for 3 years. The first year we came dead last and got to select matthews 1st OA.

The next 2 seasons we made the playoffs. Most teams don't make the playoffs after coming dead last the year before. We also hadn't made the PO 2 years in a row since around 2004! We even set a franchise record in points just 2 years after coming dead last!

Dubas has been here for 3 years. He got to take over a 105 point team. Lou inherited a 68 point team.

First year under kyle we lost to the Bruins in the first round and actually had a worse regular season than the year before.

The following year we lost to columbus in the qualifier and didn't even make the playoffs.

This year we got a very favourable division and came first only to lose in the first round to the habs, one of our most hated rivals.

Now compare that to lou since he went to the Islanders.

Lou inherited an 80 point islanders and the next year had they reach 103 points! (More than dubas and the leafs). They also made it to the 2nd round.

His 2nd year they made it to the Eastern conference finals!

Now 2021, lou and the islanders are still fighting for the cup whiel dubas and the leafs are once again golfing.

Every single year since lou went to the Islanders and Kyle took over the leafs, the islanders have gone further than us.

It amazes me the mental gymnastics you are able to perform in order to convince yourself that lou is bad and dubas is good. The results are right there in front of you. You just look incredibly foolish denying the obvious.

But it was always the goaltending, lol.

We can only think what Lou could have done with the Leafs if he stayed.
Would JT signs with us and if so, how much?
Would Lou resigns any of Leo, Bozak and JVR?
How much would Lou signs AM, Willie and Marner?
Would he trade Kadri?
Would he make the Muzzin trade?
Would he sign TJ?

 

[justashadowof]

I'm not giving up on this core. They need a strategy now, not wholesale changes. Plus we got buried by a few rookie mistakes. That typically only happens once or twice and makes you a better player. It's been a few days now and I'm ready to move forward.

- Fix special teams.
- Don't be a Babcock and adjust to what's obviously not working next time.
- Continue to improve the D (I happen to like the D core right now but it's never enough).
- Stop the stupid slow, old player pickups.

- Fix special teams
The team changed the assistant staff last summer to fix special teams. They made it slightly worse (+2 PPGF-PPGA in 19/20 vs. Even PPGF-PPGA in 20/21). In truth the team is dead center of the league in this differential. That's not really terrible when you've got the talent to score and prevent at even strength.
- Continue to improve the D
This is going to be tough without freeing up money elsewhere. The team is probably losing Dermott so it's not going to be easy to be markedly better. More likely are moves to guard against a decline on defense.
- Stop the stupid slow, old player pickups
In a lot of ways I'm against going in this direction but getting these types was cost effective in lieu of the appropriate youth to take these roles. Really I'd prefer that the team did what most other franchises do with those roles using internally developed young robust aggressive players on cheap deals.

 

[Prominence]

The 3rd year only became a problem because dubas decided to give matthews 11.34 x 5, marner 10.9 x 6 and nylander 6.9 x 6.

Most thought we would get all 3 for about 24 mil per year. It ended up costing us almost 30 mil! And none are max term either lmao
The Nylander contract is only overpaid by 500k/1mil, but fine considering his playoff production. Was not on board with Marner signing.
Lou was our gm for 3 years. The first year we came dead last and got to select matthews 1st OA.
And then he drafted a bunch of guys who won't make it to the NHL and should have traded Parenteau when he had the chance. He did trade reimer and polak for 2 seconds and a 4th, but those picks amounted to nothing.
The next 2 seasons we made the playoffs. Most teams don't make the playoffs after coming dead last the year before. We also hadn't made the PO 2 years in a row since around 2004! We even set a franchise record in points just 2 years after coming dead last!
Logical Fallacy. Just because something rarely happens, it doesn't mean it won't happen. It's a black swan. The reason we made the playoffs is because Nylander, Brown, Hyman were marinating in the AHL. Marner didn't need more development and we drafted a franchise center (albeit playoff choker). From the last place team, we had top six pieces in JVR and Kadri, a top four dman in Rielly and Gardiner (before his decline). Lou got Andersen, I'll give him that. Also, the blues won the cup after missing the playoffs, which is more unlikely and impressive than your logical fallacy.
Dubas has been here for 3 years. He got to take over a 105 point team. Lou inherited a 68 point team.
Lou inherited 11 draft picks in 2016, fumbled 10 of those draft picks. The best guy he drafted in 2016 besides grundstrom and matthews was adam brooks who projects as a 4th line center. He also inherited Marner, Nylander, Dermott, Kadri, Rielly, JVR, Bozak, and some rookies in carrick, brown. He traded two 2nd rounders for 4th liners in Brian Boyle and Plekanec. The 2017 draft was a joke. Lou's asset management is very suspect and his drafting direction is abysmal. You can even look at his recent draft history with the isles. It doesn't project well.
First year under kyle we lost to the Bruins in the first round and actually had a worse regular season than the year before.
He inherited Marleau's and Zaitsev's s*** contract, which greatly limited what he could do.
The following year we lost to columbus in the qualifier and didn't even make the playoffs.
Most of that was Babcock's abysmal start where the the coaching didn't innovate anything and the players stopped listening.
This year we got a very favourable division and came first only to lose in the first round to the habs, one of our most hated rivals.
We lost Tavares in Game 1.
Now compare that to lou since he went to the Islanders.

Lou inherited an 80 point islanders and the next year had they reach 103 points! (More than dubas and the leafs). They also made it to the 2nd round.
Barry Trotz is the coach not Lou. Lou's best move is bringing in goalies. You take Trotz out of that team and they crumble. Lou's best moves are Trotz and Goaltending. What else has he done?
His 2nd year they made it to the Eastern conference finals!
Barry Trotz is still the coach not Lou.
Now 2021, lou and the islanders are still fighting for the cup whiel dubas and the leafs are once again golfing.
Barry Trotz is still the coach not Lou.
Every single year since lou went to the Islanders and Kyle took over the leafs, the islanders have gone further than us.
They won't win the cup anytime soon. Only way for isles to win is if they somehow acquire a bunch of skilled players and win some key trades. Their most skilled player is barzal and he is a great, but he is restricted in the isles' system and he would have to consistently perform miracles for the isles to win the cup.
It amazes me the mental gymnastics you are able to perform in order to convince yourself that lou is bad and dubas is good. The results are right there in front of you. You just look incredibly foolish denying the obvious.
Actually, I'm very capable of being objective. Here's what I wrote on a different thread.
"Key things to note before reading:
- We have a s*** core. When a line that consists of 33 mil can't score during the playoffs, you will lose
- Muzzin and Tavares were injured, two guys who generate great underlying numbers, so losing them hurts quite a LOT
- We did not have the edge in terms of analytics once Tavares went down. The average value of the lines, with the exception of the top line, was actually lower than the average value of the habs lines or extremely close. Habs defense is also very good."
Sell me on Analytics... then sell me on ours

I also go on to say
"Moving forward, I think the leafs will most likely keep making the playoffs, perhaps make it to the 2nd round and then flame out until matthews and marner (the hometown kid) leave. I believe the players that dubas drafts will make the new and better core of the leafs and its only until then that the leafs win a cup."

The Leafs do not advance beyond the first round even with Lou in charge. Lou's asset management and drafting is garbage. Lou would not have gotten Tavares in Toronto (not that I actually approve of that signing), but Tavares does make the leafs a better team.

Don't sling insults. It makes your arguments look weak.

I'm going to make a pros and cons list just to annoy a large contingent on this board and so that others can copy and paste this. Notice how one list is bigger than the other.

Things I don't agree with dubas on:
- Tavares signing, (Nylander, Matthews, Marner is the core, we didn't have enough money to sign all AND improve the defence even with marleau contract)
- Marner extension (I actually would have been okay if they sat his a** for a year, but if this had happened, we would have had posters like you complaining and whining about how we missed the playoffs because we sat marner out even though he wanted 10mil+), Kadri trade (i'll take the L on this), not trading Tyson Barrie, drafting durzi,
- His cap management is illogical for the core
- Trading a first round pick for Foligno, but we will get back to this

Things Dubas actually did well:
Drafting

- In the 2018 draft, Dubas traded back in the first round to grab an additional third round pick
- He drafted Sandin: Bokk, Lundqvist, Bernard -Docker, and Beaudin were the opportunity costs of trading back, but Sandin arguably has as much upside as these picks, if not more
- SDA has done decent in the KHL and has played some games in the abysmal Ryan Moore system
- Kral is a good skater and projects better than the likes of eemeli rasanen, gordeev, greenway, etc
- Holmberg just won SHL playoffs MVP, thommie bergman special.
- Ignoring the first round, Dubas will probably have more nhlers in the 2018 draft than Lou had in both 2016 and 2017 drafts.

- Let's look at the 2019 draft: Robertson with the 53rd overall pick
- Robertson is sniffing the nhl and has top six upside. If he doesn't make it, it'll be due to his injuries
- Abbruzese scored over a PPG in the NCAA albeit as a D+3
- Mike Koster projects very well as indicated by scouts
- Don't even get me started on the 2020 draft

Addressing "Needs"
Needs: Defense and Grit for 18-19 season
- He moved out contracts in Zaitsev, Martin, Brown
- He addressed the need for a defensive dman by bringing in Muzzin
- Kadri kept getting suspended so to fill the #3C spot, he brought in Barrie and Kerfoot

Needs: Goaltending for 19-20 season
- believe it or not, ceci was serviceable as 3rd pairing D
- signed Spezza after a bad year in dallas (dubas saw an inefficency and exploited it)
- establishes great relations with europeans: it's how we got mikyehev,
- He got some grit with Clifford, and addressed the need for a backup in Campbell

Needs: Defence and grit for 2020-21 season: the season of grit
- brought in simmonds for grit and 1mil cap space
- brought in Thornton for leadership and 1mil cap space
- traded for foligno for leadership and grit
- had injury replacements for D in Hutton in case we needed it
- got a good partner for rielly in Brodie
- saw market inefficiency in Alex Galchenyuk
- got another backup in rittich because at the time, andersen was injured and there was no one after campbell
- traded johnsson before his value decreased even more
- mikko lehtonen didnt work out, but at least dubas has a european pipeline

 

[darrylsittler27]

Don't sling insults. It makes your arguments look weak.

I'm going to make a pros and cons list just to annoy a large contingent on this board and so that others can copy and paste this. Notice how one list is bigger than the other.

Things I don't agree with dubas on:
- Tavares signing, (Nylander, Matthews, Marner is the core, we didn't have enough money to sign all AND improve the defence even with marleau contract)
- Marner extension (I actually would have been okay if they sat his a** for a year, but if this had happened, we would have had posters like you complaining and whining about how we missed the playoffs because we sat marner out even though he wanted 10mil+), Kadri trade (i'll take the L on this), not trading Tyson Barrie, drafting durzi,
- His cap management is illogical for the core
- Trading a first round pick for Foligno, but we will get back to this

Things Dubas actually did well:
Drafting

- In the 2018 draft, Dubas traded back in the first round to grab an additional third round pick
- He drafted Sandin: Bokk, Lundqvist, Bernard -Docker, and Beaudin were the opportunity costs of trading back, but Sandin arguably has as much upside as these picks, if not more
- SDA has done decent in the KHL and has played some games in the abysmal Ryan Moore system
- Kral is a good skater and projects better than the likes of eemeli rasanen, gordeev, greenway, etc
- Holmberg just won SHL playoffs MVP, thommie bergman special.
- Ignoring the first round, Dubas will probably have more nhlers in the 2018 draft than Lou had in both 2016 and 2017 drafts.

- Let's look at the 2019 draft: Robertson with the 53rd overall pick
- Robertson is sniffing the nhl and has top six upside. If he doesn't make it, it'll be due to his injuries
- Abbruzese scored over a PPG in the NCAA albeit as a D+3
- Mike Koster projects very well as indicated by scouts
- Don't even get me started on the 2020 draft

Addressing "Needs"
Needs: Defense and Grit for 18-19 season
- He moved out contracts in Zaitsev, Martin, Brown
- He addressed the need for a defensive dman by bringing in Muzzin
- Kadri kept getting suspended so to fill the #3C spot, he brought in Barrie and Kerfoot

Needs: Goaltending for 19-20 season
- believe it or not, ceci was serviceable as 3rd pairing D
- signed Spezza after a bad year in dallas (dubas saw an inefficency and exploited it)
- establishes great relations with europeans: it's how we got mikyehev,
- He got some grit with Clifford, and addressed the need for a backup in Campbell

Needs: Defence and grit for 2020-21 season: the season of grit
- brought in simmonds for grit and 1mil cap space
- brought in Thornton for leadership and 1mil cap space
- traded for foligno for leadership and grit
- had injury replacements for D in Hutton in case we needed it
- got a good partner for rielly in Brodie
- saw market inefficiency in Alex Galchenyuk
- got another backup in rittich because at the time, andersen was injured and there was no one after campbell
- traded johnsson before his value decreased even more
- mikko lehtonen didnt work out, but at least dubas has a european pipeline

I could talk about all his stupid moves but the bottomline is the results. Next year wont matter to most Leaf fans now. Hello Kracken.

 

[Captain Crunch]

When did this board become a cesspool of boomer posting?

the shitty hot takery in this thread is awful.

Okay, so let’s hear your suggestion(s).

 

[BrannigansLaw]

The NFL allows players to take a pay cut.

The NHL should do the same.

I’d love to see our prissy boys even consider a pay cut.

 

[Legion34]

The 3rd year only became a problem because dubas decided to give matthews 11.34 x 5, marner 10.9 x 6 and nylander 6.9 x 6.

Most thought we would get all 3 for about 24 mil per year. It ended up costing us almost 30 mil! And none are max term either lmao

Lou was our gm for 3 years. The first year we came dead last and got to select matthews 1st OA.

The next 2 seasons we made the playoffs. Most teams don't make the playoffs after coming dead last the year before. We also hadn't made the PO 2 years in a row since around 2004! We even set a franchise record in points just 2 years after coming dead last!

Dubas has been here for 3 years. He got to take over a 105 point team. Lou inherited a 68 point team.

First year under kyle we lost to the Bruins in the first round and actually had a worse regular season than the year before.

The following year we lost to columbus in the qualifier and didn't even make the playoffs.

This year we got a very favourable division and came first only to lose in the first round to the habs, one of our most hated rivals.

Now compare that to lou since he went to the Islanders.

Lou inherited an 80 point islanders and the next year had they reach 103 points! (More than dubas and the leafs). They also made it to the 2nd round.

His 2nd year they made it to the Eastern conference finals!

Now 2021, lou and the islanders are still fighting for the cup whiel dubas and the leafs are once again golfing.

Every single year since lou went to the Islanders and Kyle took over the leafs, the islanders have gone further than us.

It amazes me the mental gymnastics you are able to perform in order to convince yourself that lou is bad and dubas is good. The results are right there in front of you. You just look incredibly foolish denying the obvious.

Wait sorry how many series did we win under lou???

 

[Antropovsky]

Wait sorry how many series did we win under lou???

We were closer to winning with Lou - wuth much more difficult opposition, without having Tavares and with the big 3 still wet behind their ears than we have been with Dubas.

 

[Captain Crunch]

He signed marleau for 6 mil for 3 years when it was clear that third year would have interfered with the marner and matthews extensions. Marleau was a 37 year old who provided no grit and sub standard scoring. He also signed zaitsev for 5 years and can’t really shut down opposing players. He also signed martin for 2mil over 4 years where while he did fight, the team still got bounced out of the first round. It doesn’t take a genius to draft matthews or liljegren when he fell to us to 17th. The 2016 and 2017 drafts were also a s***show with only grundstrom, a 2nd round pick, having actual potential. Lou allowed the drafting of an overager in korshkov at 31 when he literally could have drafted anyone else. People like to attribute nyi’s success to lou, but really, 90% of it is due to barry trotz’s coaching and system.

What a lot of people on this board seem to forget is tavares went down in game 1. Doing simple salary cap math, leafs were competing with 72mil in value against habs 82 (albeit they had some inefficiencies). That’s a pretty huge piece to lose. And then we lost muzzin, another 5mil hit.

As far as losing Tavares, that’s why it never made sense to me to have two #1 centers each making $11 million. It would have made more sense to have one #1 center, and use the $11 million to have a solid 2nd line center and the rest for more forward and/or defensive help.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Wait sorry how many series did we win under lou???

About the same as we’ve won with Dubas.

 

[Legion34]

We were closer to winning with Lou - wuth much more difficult opposition, without having Tavares and with the big 3 still wet behind their ears than we have been with Dubas.

? under lou we had 3 ELC stars. That’s the biggest advantage you can have.

complaining about Matthews and marner making 22 million and not being able to win.

but lou was going to make it happen when he couldn’t on ELC?

unlikely

 

[Antropovsky]

Leafs biggest problem was putting the young players in a position to offensively succeed, before having to succeed defensively. As a result they maximized their offensive totals early and demanded to be paid like free agents. Team should've had coaches like Hitchcock, Trotz and Brindamour first. Look at Aho... in his contract year he had 83 points in 82 games (whopping +25) compared to Marner 94 in 82 (plus 22). Carolina scored something like 16 percent less goals but allowed like 13% less than Toronto. Marner got paid nearly 3 million more than Aho because of it. Not to mention, I'm sure Marner had it easy as defensive assignments were likely easier at times due to Matthews being on a different line (he also had Tavares as a linemate while Aho had lesser skilled linemates).

Switch Aho and Marner that year and I certainly don't think Marner hits 90 points.