LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016 Draft) IX

[93LEAFS]

Laine hype went into over-drive during the Liiga playoffs, the dispute just got worse after the lottery results as it pitted two large and passionate fan bases directly against each other, with quality and terrible posters on both sides. The fact Leafs fans are getting told they aren't going to draft the BPA avalible, that there team will mess up, and a bunch of shots at the teams history, is bound to annoy people. On the other hand, Finns being told that the player being hyped as arguably the best Finnish prospect ever isn't worthy of being 1st Overall has created this backlash. With no games left to analyze, the same arguments will do in circles and probably continue til both these guys are taken off the prospect board by graduating, but will still perpetually be in the polls section like Trouba vs Rielly. Inbetween the extremes we actually get pockets of reasonable discussion, but like any town hall meeting, it will get sidetracked by the people yelling in extremes.

 

[Joe MacMillan]

Agreed on the acceleration, but saying he lives off his shot from the point makes it seem like that's all he has, when he is a good passer, has good IQ and positioning to find open seams. There is a reason he is ranked number 2 in a draft where the top 3 are all considered elite players. He has a big body that he can use, along with his tremendous reach, to shield the puck and get past players.

Saying it's all he's got wouldn't do him justice but his game is refined around his point shot. He's a perimeter player, not a rush player. He joins rushes and can produce off them with his playmaking or shot but it's clear which part of the ice he's the most dangerous in: between the dots.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Most teams would kill to have a player like him. Match him up with an elite playmaker or a player who can take the coverage off of him and he can thrive offensively.

 

[Quiksilver*]

So many hurt feelings in here. Why is everyone so sensitive?

Who cares what joe hockey expert at hfboards has to say about a prospect? At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Does it affect their career trajectory? No. Neither does being drafted, 1st, 2nd, 148th or going undrafted. Let it play out.

 

[kunekune]

Why go back a few pages? I’ll rehash why I think Laine shouldn’t go #1 overall with my first point being my largest concern:

-Can’t stop and start (no seriously, he never stops and starts), is a very clear “floater†when he doesn’t have puck possession. But once he gets moving he flies, so I guess that’s why he “floatsâ€. This really worries me at the next level and on smaller ice. A lot. Acceleration is greatly in question.

-Has very weak 1-on-1 skills (at speed), though his puck possession in zone is great. Problems getting by defenders unless he can bully them or blow by them with speed in transition. I get not many agree with me here, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.

-Is a shoot first player. Not to say his shot isn’t elite, because it is. I’m glad he uses it a lot, but would like to see a few more nice passes or just less shots from weak areas. Speaking of passing, it’s pretty average with minimal backhand ability.

Weak 1-on-1 skills at speed? Huh, That's like his best skill.

Where do you get this stuff

 

[Lempo]

Laine hype went into over-drive during the Liiga playoffs, the dispute just got worse after the lottery results as it pitted too large and passionate fan bases directly against each other, with quality and terrible posters on both sides. The fact Leafs fans are getting told they aren't going to draft the BPA avalible, that there team will mess up, and a bunch of shots at the teams history, is bound to annoy people. On the other hand, Finns being told that the player being hyped as arguably the best Finnish prospect ever isn't worthy of being 1st Overall has created this backlash. With no games left to analyze, the same arguments will do in circles and probably continue til both these guys are taken off the prospect board by graduating, but will still perpetually be in the polls section like Trouba vs Rielly. Inbetween the extremes we actually get pockets of reasonable discussion, but like any town hall meeting, it will get sidetracked by the people yelling in extremes.

Plus that we are obviously out to wage revenge on Mats Sundin's old team next, now that the Swedish NT boogiemen seem to be finally put into rest.

 

[ijuka]

Weak 1-on-1 skills at speed? Huh, That's like his best skill.

Where do you get this stuff

Yep, 1 on 1 with speed against a defenseman is his single strongest skill in my opinion. Every defenseman in Liiga was helpless and he was 17 years old.

Well, Auvitu did OK but he's NHL caliber.

 

[SampoHoitaa]

Laine hype went into over-drive during the Liiga playoffs, the dispute just got worse after the lottery results as it pitted too large and passionate fan bases directly against each other, with quality and terrible posters on both sides. The fact Leafs fans are getting told they aren't going to draft the BPA avalible, that there team will mess up, and a bunch of shots at the teams history, is bound to annoy people. On the other hand, Finns being told that the player being hyped as arguably the best Finnish prospect ever isn't worthy of being 1st Overall has created this backlash. With no games left to analyze, the same arguments will do in circles and probably continue til both these guys are taken off the prospect board by graduating, but will still perpetually be in the polls section like Trouba vs Rielly. Inbetween the extremes we actually get pockets of reasonable discussion, but like any town hall meeting, it will get sidetracked by the people yelling in extremes.

This.

And what really bothers me about this, is the fact that this is only the beginning. After Matthews going 1st and Laine 2nd there will be Calder race and endless discussions of which one is the better player. But yeah. It's all part of the "fun" I guess.

 

[CashMash]

Laine hype went into over-drive during the Liiga playoffs, the dispute just got worse after the lottery results as it pitted too large and passionate fan bases directly against each other, with quality and terrible posters on both sides. The fact Leafs fans are getting told they aren't going to draft the BPA avalible, that there team will mess up, and a bunch of shots at the teams history, is bound to annoy people. On the other hand, Finns being told that the player being hyped as arguably the best Finnish prospect ever isn't worthy of being 1st Overall has created this backlash. With no games left to analyze, the same arguments will do in circles and probably continue til both these guys are taken off the prospect board by graduating, but will still perpetually be in the polls section like Trouba vs Rielly. Inbetween the extremes we actually get pockets of reasonable discussion, but like any town hall meeting, it will get sidetracked by the people yelling in extremes.

Maybe for some. Personally, I'm mostly tired of people saying it is an AINEC scenario and also that some people, who happen to be leafs fans from what I've seen, are saying he will disappoint etc. Some have used the 8-2 ratio to say that it isn't close, but according to the context behind it, McKenzie also told us that there were many who thought the choice wasn't easy.

The thing is, I don't even care that they don't think he will go number 1, I get annoyed by the disrespect. This happens on both sides a bit, but from what I've seen in lurking the Matthews thread, not many pro-Laine fans are there bashing Matthews.

I would choose Matthews first if I were the Leafs. He is more of a sure bet and the Leafs have long wanted their 1st line center. I'm happy that Laine will most likely end up a jet, since I think it's a good fit. They already have Scheifele who could potentially work well with him.

The ignorant statements just need to stop imo.

Agree with your post, btw. Two passionate fanbases pitted against each other is not exactly a recipe for reasonable discussion.

Also, as said before, I still don't get why Laine is hyped as the best prospect, since I thought Barkov was much better even at their corresponding ages. Played PK and produced very well in the FEL. Maybe your theory about the NHL being vary of Finnish prospects for a while has something to do with it. Regardless, he will be a top 5 center in the league I think, with a huge impact both defensively and offensively.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Actually, that's not true. In Bob McKenzie's last ranking, he said two scouts had Laine first overall.

The narrative that Laine is a one-trick pony, unlikely to transition well to North American play, won't be able to score goals except on the power play, won't be effective against top talent, will likely be a disappointment, etc only started up after the Leafs won the lottery.

I agree. One could argue after the WJC Laine was starting to hit the radar for some. Infact it was well before the draft lottery. A combination of Liiga playoff MVP, Grant Mckagg's Mckeens rankings that had Laine first only made Mckenzie's comments an afterthought I surmise. Since Laine's play was starting to be noticed even before his rankings. What Mckenzie brought to the discussion was the context it was close between Laine and Matthews, and even though 8 of his 10 scouts picked Matthews, he reported the decision was a close and tough one for scouts.

 

[93LEAFS]

Maybe for some. Personally, I'm mostly tired of people saying it is an AINEC scenario and also that some people, who happen to be leafs fans from what I've seen, are saying he will disappoint etc. Some have used the 8-2 ratio to say that it isn't close, but according to the context behind it, McKenzie also told us that there were many who thought the choice wasn't easy.

The thing is, I don't even care that they don't think he will go number 1, I get annoyed by the disrespect. This happens on both sides a bit, but from what I've seen in lurking the Matthews thread, not many pro-Laine fans are there bashing Matthews.

I would choose Matthews first if I were the Leafs. He is more of a sure bet and the Leafs have long wanted their 1st line center. I'm happy that Laine will most likely end up a jet, since I think it's a good fit. They already have Scheifele who could potentially work well with him.

The ignorant statements just need to stop imo.

Agree with your post, btw. Two passionate fanbases pitted against each other is not exactly a recipe for reasonable discussion.

Also, as said before, I still don't get why Laine is hyped as the best prospect, since I thought Barkov was much better even at their corresponding ages. Played PK and produced very well in the FEL. Maybe your theory about the NHL being vary of Finnish prospects for a while has something to do with it. Regardless, he will be a top 5 center in the league I think, with a huge impact both defensively and offensively.

I think its a combo of things. Flagship WJC and IIHF performances (Barkov only really racked up points in the relegation round). With the success of Barkov after that massive drought of Finnish talent during the 2000's has made people less sceptical. To put a similar example forward, alot of people would be sceptical of a prospect dominating the Czech or Slovak league right now because they have had similar type droughts or their top talent has gone to Sweden or the CHL. In retrospect many people think Barkov should of been valued higher (if not by NHL teams, but by the general media and scouting services), and that has helped the stock of Laine and Puljujarvi.

 

[CashMash]

I think Laine might actually need a year or so before he fully adjusts to the game.

...can't wait for the premature declarations that will follow when he has an average first season in the league. It's going to be so fun.

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

I agree. One could argue after the WJC Laine was starting to hit the radar for some. Infact it was well before the draft lottery. A combination of Liiga playoff MVP, Grant Mckagg's Mckeens rankings that had Laine first only made Mckenzie's comments an afterthought I surmise. Since Laine's play was starting to be noticed even before his rankings. What Mckenzie brought to the discussion was the context it was close between Laine and Matthews, and even though 8 of his 10 scouts picked Matthews, he reported the decision was a close and tough one for scouts.

But still seemingly a decisive one...I do agree that the Laine hype did start before the draft lottery.

 

[Booster*]

What´s your first thought when Laine shoots from the slot?



Exactly.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think Laine might actually need a year or so before he fully adjusts to the game.

...can't wait for the premature declarations that will follow when he has an average first season in the league. It's going to be so fun.

I don't think anyone reasonable is expecting him to score 50-40 or even 30 in his rookie season. Especially as a 18 year old that is coming over to NA for the 1st time. But given what I have seen from his talent, he is a natural goal scorer. He could probably score goals on Mars if they decided to play hockey there. So I am not concerned about the smaller rink concerns. Even Stamkos needed to adjust in his rookie year of scoring a modest 23 goals in his rookie season. I would not expect anything different from Laine. Anything better is just icing on the cake.

 

[Face Of Bear]

As a Leaf fan, when the lottery was taking place I was hoping and praying to get either #1 or #2. That would guarantee us one of Matthews/Laine who imo are objectively ahead of the pack.

That said, after securing the #1 OA, there is no doubt in my mind that the Leafs will pick Matthews and that he is the BPA.

Unlike others though, I dont think there is really much if anything to bash about Laine's skillset, but that doesnt mean there isn't a clear divide between him and Matthews.

Laine is going to be a real good player, possibly as soon as next season. Matthews though has that critical tipping point of NHL skills that will allow him to win all kinds of trophies one day

 

[CashMash]

As a Leaf fan, when the lottery was taking place I was hoping and praying to get either #1 or #2. That would guarantee us one of Matthews/Laine who imo are objectively ahead of the pack.

That said, after securing the #1 OA, there is no doubt in my mind that the Leafs will pick Matthews and that he is the BPA.

Unlike others though, I dont think there is really much if anything to bash about Laine's skillset, but that doesnt mean there isn't a clear divide between him and Matthews.

Laine is going to be a real good player, possibly as soon as next season. Matthews though has that critical tipping point of NHL skills that will allow him to win all kinds of trophies one day

If all turns out well, Laine will probably compete with the likes of Tarasenko for the Richard, but we'll see how things play out.

 

[93LEAFS]

I don't think anyone reasonable is expecting him to score 50-40 or even 30 in his rookie season. Especially as a 18 year old that is coming over to NA for the 1st time. But given what I have seen from his talent, he is a natural goal scorer. He could probably score goals on Mars if they decided to play hockey there. So I am not concerned about the smaller rink concerns. Even Stamkos needed to adjust in his rookie year of scoring a modest 23 goals in his rookie season. I would not expect anything different from Laine. Anything better is just icing on the cake.

Stamkos only getting 23 in his rookie year was more due to the fact the Lightening made arguably the worst coaching hire of the past 15 years. Melrose was so outdated and had no idea on how to manage a team is was amazing to watch. Thankfully they fired him less than a 1/3rd into the season and Stamkos had a very strong second half when he started getting minutes and opportunity.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Stamkos only getting 23 in his rookie year was more due to the fact the Lightening made arguably the worst coaching hire of the past 15 years. Melrose was so outdated and had no idea on how to manage a team is was amazing to watch. Thankfully they fired him less than a 1/3rd into the season and Stamkos had a very strong second half when he started getting minutes and opportunity.

Stamkos was a first overall pick like Tavares and Mackinnon. 18 year olds, 19 for JT need time to adjust to the NHL. I don't buy the coaching reasoning. 18 year old rookies now when the NHL is a tougher league to score in need an adjustment period. This applies to all players including Laine.

 

[93LEAFS]

Stamkos was a first overall pick like Tavares and Mackinnon. 18 year olds, 19 for JT need time to adjust to the NHL. I don't buy the coaching reasoning. 18 year old rookies now when the NHL is a tougher league to score in need an adjustment period. This applies to all players including Laine.

Then you clearly didn't watch Melrose coach. Look at the split of his minutes from that year. He needed to adjust but how he was coached was a joke. His point totals should of been on par or higher than Tavares or Eichel's if used properly. Melrose was the worst coach we have seen in the last 15 years. He would of hit 30 if used properly, instead of whatever strategy Melrose came up with. Once he got competent coaching and usage he was quite effective. Just look at the pre and post all star game splits, it was a minutes issue more than anything.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5037/year/2009/steven-stamkos

edit: and compare that to how Tavares, Duchene and Eichel were used out of the gate.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5160/year/2010/john-tavares

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/3648002/jack-eichel

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5161/year/2010/matt-duchene

Even Evander Kane was given more minutes to start

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5251/year/2010/evander-kane

 

[ijuka]

You don't have to show us once again that you literally haven't seen Laine that much or don't know anything about hockey.

It's no wonder if people in NA don't like the Leafs fans with comments like this. You've been shown a couple of examples of his skills at speed and yet you decline to accept that you are wrong. Troll is the word comes with this ****. You already lost so much credibility with that line, why would you do it again? If I go to Matthews thread and say that he has very weak skating, what do you think is gonna happen? Probably the outcome you wanted to see in here.

Start watching the games instead of making comments that have no value, or the value is just trolling.

Heh, it's funny. Laine hasn't always had his shot. In fact, when he was younger, his skating was always a weakness of his. He was not a team player, he essentially never passed. He wasn't interested in defense. Why was he still considered perhaps the most talented Finnish hockey player of his age in history?

Here is Laine at 13 years old, playing in u-16s, against people 1-2 years older than him. If we judge him after we watch the first 55 seconds...:



...What is his strength?

 

[kelsier]

The topic used to have more professional manner in it, prior to knowing which team was drafting where. Timing isn't a coincidence. What happened was that Leafs won the lottery, figured who their target was and suddenly dozen of the people from that camp (who didn't even bother checking in this thread) swarmed in raving about AM's superiority, while the Finns and the rest were mostly focusing on Laine. Later on Matthews vs Laine thread emerged, got trashed down (never made any sense getting rid of the toxic waste dump instead of letting it re-surface here) and we're back to square one.

Should the "neutrals" favour Laine for any reason, they are labelled as Leaf haters. If the Finns think Laine is the BPA of the draft, they are obviously homers. The fun part is, you make your own voes or in this case "haters". If there was an actual club (which there isn't), one could think twice of maybe having part in creating one. The common policy of treating people as you'd like to be treated applies in the wonderful world of the internet as well.

Nowdays if you want to have an actual, intellectual or even interesting conversation about Laine, you have to filter out 90% of the posts. Leafs fan should just stay on the Matthews topic and be happy to have him and let go of their insecurities, cause that is without a question the one and the only reason they are either trashing Laine or coming up with any and all kinds of flaws (whether they exist or not). There is no other distinctive quality in human to rationalise the behaviour.

Anyway back to the point, does anyone have a good picture of how many days do the combine, actual draft and NHL training camp actually vacuum out of the off-season, especially from a European player? I'd imagine these eating quite a big chunk of time due to flying back and forth, then re-adjusting to time zones and so forth. Definitely not the ideal off-season for any player who's goal is to work hard.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Then you clearly didn't watch Melrose coach. Look at the split of his minutes from that year. He needed to adjust but how he was coached was a joke. His point totals should of been on par or higher than Tavares or Eichel's if used properly. Melrose was the worst coach we have seen in the last 15 years. He would of hit 30 if used properly, instead of whatever strategy Melrose came up with. Once he got competent coaching and usage he was quite effective. Just look at the pre and post all star game splits, it was a minutes issue more than anything.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5037/year/2009/steven-stamkos

edit: and compare that to how Tavares, Duchene and Eichel were used out of the gate.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5160/year/2010/john-tavares

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/3648002/jack-eichel

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5161/year/2010/matt-duchene

Even Evander Kane was given more minutes to start

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/splits/_/id/5251/year/2010/evander-kane

Modestly talented Ryan Malone had 26 goals in only 70 games that year under that same coach. I don't know what your point is here?

1st or 2nd overall picks Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, Hall, Seguin, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Hopkins, Barkov, Yakupov, Eichel. None of them put up 30 goals in their 18 year old seasons in their post draft year.

I am not sure of your point, are you saying you expect Laine to, even in light of the evidence it is a very rare occurrence for even the most talented 18 year olds in recent history where scoring is down?

 

[ijuka]

Nowdays if you want to have an actual, intellectual or even interesting conversation about Laine, you have to filter out 90% of the posts. Leafs fan should just stay on the Matthews topic and be happy to have him and let go of their insecurities, cause that is without a question the one and the only reason they are either trashing Laine or coming up with any and all kinds of flaws (whether they exist or not). There is no other distinctive quality in human to rationalise the behaviour.

This is how I feel as well. When I think about Tkachuk for instance, do I care to go complain about his weaknesses? Meh, not really. I think I've posted 1 or 2 posts about him in total. The only reason I've been able to come up with is insecurity. I guess that's a testament to just how good Patrik Laine is even in the eyes of the Leafs fans who enjoy bashing him.

Modestly talented Ryan Malone had 26 goals in only 70 games that year under that same coach. I don't know what your point is here?

1st or 2nd overall picks Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, Hall, Seguin, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Hopkins, Barkov, Yakupov, Eichel. None of them put up 30 goals in their 18 year old seasons in their post draft year.

I am not sure of your point, are you saying you expect Laine to, even in light of the evidence it is a very rare occurrence for even the most talented 18 year olds in recent history where scoring is down?

Yes, u19s generally don't score so amazingly during their rookie seasons. The ones who have are IIRC generational or u20.

This is why I expect Laine to score well, however.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

If the jets are smart and give him loads of PP time I wouldn't be shocked at all to see him put up 30 next year.

Keep in mind the adjusted goalie equipment on the horizon

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

I wouldn't be surprised if Laine hits 30 goals next season. Maybe a season like 25-30 goals and 45-50 points playing in the Jets top 6 and 1st PP unit.