LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016 Draft) IX

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This is how I feel as well. When I think about Tkachuk for instance, do I care to go complain about his weaknesses? Meh, not really. I think I've posted 1 or 2 posts about him in total. The only reason I've been able to come up with is insecurity. I guess that's a testament to just how good Patrik Laine is even in the eyes of the Leafs fans who enjoy bashing him.



Yes, u19s generally don't score so amazingly during their rookie seasons. The ones who have are IIRC generational or u20.

This is why I expect Laine to score well, however.

I know. The players I listed are all pretty good to great players. None of them were lights out in their rookie years when it came to goals. It is rather transparent some are setting up different rules for Laine if he does not score 30-40 next year.
 
Most of the posters who has been trashing Laine have been Leafs fans when there has been no reason to do that. You'll get your 1C, no need to make your player superior trashing others down. Matthews is already better..
 
Modestly talented Ryan Malone had 26 goals in only 70 games that year under that same coach. I don't know what your point is here?

1st or 2nd overall picks Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, Hall, Seguin, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Hopkins, Barkov, Yakupov, Eichel. None of them put up 30 goals in their 18 year old seasons in their post draft year.

I am not sure of your point, are you saying you expect Laine to, even in light of the evidence it is a very rare occurrence for even the most talented 18 year olds in recent history where scoring is down?
It wasn't the same coach all year. Just look at the TOI Stamkos got in the first 2 months, which were the only 2 months Melrose was coaching the team (Melrose was fired after 16 games on Novermber 16th 2008). He destroyed Stamkos's confidence and it took him til February to fully bounce back. Back look at the TOI everyother player got in the first 2 months. If you look at what Stamkos did post-Melrose that year, his per-minute ratios, and how he exploded for 50 the next season, it is reasonable to conclude he would of scored 30 or more goals if given the similar usage as Tavares. I rarely blame coaches on here, but Melrose was so bad it needs to be pointed out that Stamkos's rookie number's were depressed by absolutely terrible managing for the beginning of the season and training camp.

And I'm not saying Laine should hit 30 goals, but I'm pointing out that Stamkos's rookie numbers aren't a great comparable for anyone. Its why I hate when people say Eichel could break out to the extent Stamkos did in his 2nd year, because its almost impossible for him to get a similar playing-time bump.
 
I don't count Yakupov for obvious reasons, but since Crosby, we've had 4 wingers picked during the top 2 picks. 3 of them were late birthday.

So the only person I'll compare to is James van Riemsdyk. He didn't play in NHL until 2 seasons after draft. If you want to count Yakupov, he was a late birthday too.

Going back to 1995, only Kovalchuk and Nash fit those criteria.

Nash had 17+22=39 in 74 GP. Kovalchuk had 29+22=51 in 65 GP.


30 goals is quite the expectation.
 
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It wasn't the same coach all year. Just look at the TOI Stamkos got in the first 2 months, which were the only 2 months Melrose was coaching the team (Melrose was fired after 16 games on Novermber 16th 2008). He destroyed Stamkos's confidence and it took him til February to fully bounce back. Back look at the TOI everyother player got in the first 2 months. If you look at what Stamkos did post-Melrose that year, his per-minute ratios, and how he exploded for 50 the next season, it is reasonable to conclude he would of scored 30 or more goals if given the similar usage as Tavares. I rarely blame coaches on here, but Melrose was so bad it needs to be pointed out that Stamkos's rookie number's were depressed by absolutely terrible managing for the beginning of the season and training camp.

And I'm not saying Laine should hit 30 goals, but I'm pointing out that Stamkos's rookie numbers aren't a great comparable for anyone. Its why I hate when people say Eichel could break out to the extent Stamkos did in his 2nd year, because its almost impossible for him to get a similar playing-time bump.

Stamkos made an adjustment on his training and game prepartation. He was scratched by Toccett 3 times when Melrose( a stanley cup finalist coach, he is not Horacek so let's be clear about that) was fired after only 16 games.

But again, this is why 18 year olds need time to adjust, even if you ignore the other great players I cited. Laine will be no different. So let's be fair to him also. He will be 18 when he laces it up in the NHL probably as soon as next season.

Here is what happened with Stamkos his rookie year.

the team took a different approach with Stamkos, whom many within the organization considered to be key to stabilizing a franchise struggling on the ice and in turmoil off it. Rick Tocchet replaced Melrose and put Stamkos on a strength-training program. He scratched Stamkos on three occasions, each time asking him to watch from the press box with a notebook and pen in hand. Stamkos also attended regular video sessions with an assistant coach.

Like most 18 year olds entering the NHL, itis more of a young man learning about conditioning, getting into NHL shape, and adjusting to the NHL rather than coaching.

Laine will be no different, and the standards should be consistent to all. Not unrealistic ones for only Laine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031904289.html
 
Stamkos made an adjustment on his training and game prepartation. He was scratched by Toccett 3 times when Melrose( a stanley cup finalist coach, he is not Horacek so let's be clear about that) was fired after only 16 games.

But again, this is why 18 year olds need time to adjust, even if you ignore the other great players I cited. Laine will be no different. So let's be fair to him also. He will be 18 when he laces it up in the NHL probably as soon as next season.

Here is what happened with Stamkos his rookie year.



Like most 18 year olds entering the NHL, itis more of a young man learning about conditioning, getting into NHL shape, and adjusting to the NHL rather than coaching.
Laine will be no different, and the standards should be consistent to all. Not unrealistic ones for only Laine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031904289.html
Melrose was a stanley cup final coach with Wayne Gretzky and hasn't accomplished anything since. He botched the development and Stamkos would of had a better season without it. Just look at the per-minute ratio's. I'm not saying hold Laine to a higher standard, but Stamkos's rookie year isn't that relevent, unless Laine is getting 12 minutes a game to start the year. If he really is a generational goal scorer like some claim here, and he is getting minutes, I think Skinner's rookie year is a fine baseline.

As your link noted, the Lightening were a mess, to the point Len Barrie tired to trade Stamkos mid-year and didn't have permission over the GM's head. Stamkos's numbers his rookie year aren't reflective of his talent, and is more reflective of how he was used and bad management. Winnipeg seems much more competent. Considering how people are talking about him, 25+ is a reasonable expectation if given the proper minutes and powerplay time.
 
Melrose was a stanley cup final coach with Wayne Gretzky and hasn't accomplished anything since. He botched the development and Stamkos would of had a better season without it. Just look at the per-minute ratio's. I'm not saying hold Laine to a higher standard, but Stamkos's rookie year isn't that relevent, unless Laine is getting 12 minutes a game to start the year. If he really is a generational goal scorer like some claim here, and he is getting minutes, I think Skinner's rookie year is a fine baseline.

You named 1 player, Skinner. Congrats. As for Stamkos for the last time this is a Laine thread and we should be discussing him. Rather than attempting to set up conditions to fail so we can have posters say I told you so.

Link was provided. Melrose was his coach for a grand total of 16 games. So let's stop with that bad play of facts, that he was the reason he was holding Stamkos back. Stamkos had 66 games of further NHL adjustment under a new coach to find his way. It happens to the vast majority of 18 year olds whether you want to ignore the facts or not.
 
You named 1 player, Skinner. Congrats. As for Stamkos for the last time. Link was provided. Melrose was his coach for a grand total of 16 games. So let's stop with that bad play of facts, that he was the reason he was holding Stamkos back. Stamkos had 66 games of further NHL adjustment to find his way. It happens to the vast majority of 18 year olds whether you want to ignore the facts or not.
You don't think those 16 games and training camp had a terrible impact. And just look at his total minutes, which you see to ignore. Pro-rate the goals to what usual top picks get and its much higher. And Laine is supposed to be the best goal scorer since Ovi, over 25 is a reasonable expectation. But completely ignore the tire fire tampa was, you seem to love to ignore context.
 
You don't think those 16 games and training camp had a terrible impact. And just look at his total minutes, which you see to ignore. Pro-rate the goals to what usual top picks get and its much higher. And Laine is supposed to be the best goal scorer since Ovi, over 25 is a reasonable expectation. But completely ignore the tire fire tampa was, you seem to love to ignore context.

You keep distorting facts. Anything to set up Laine to fail? You were already reminded in this thread that Ovie was 21 when he entered the NHL not 18. When Laine is 21, maybe we can revisit where the 2 stand stats wise.
 
You keep distorting facts. Anything to set up Laine to fail? You were already reminded that Ovie was 21 when he entered the NHL not 18. When Laine is 21, maybe we can revisit where the 2 stand stats wise.
When did I say he should score what Ovi did? Keep creating Strawman. Laine should be able to hit over 25 if given first minute PP time and close to 17 minutes a game with sheltered zone-starts. That isn't setting him up to fail. It'd be setting him up to fail if I said he should score 52. I actually wonder about your ability to comprehend anything in a discussion that goes against your viewpoint. You constantly have proven it with how you evaluate lists.
 
When did I say he should score what Ovi did? Keep creating Strawman. Laine should be able to hit over 25 if given first minute PP time and close to 17 minutes a game with sheltered zone-starts. That isn't setting him up to fail. It'd be setting him up to fail if I said he should score 52. I actually wonder about your ability to comprehend anything in a discussion that goes against your viewpoint. You constantly have proven it with how you evaluate lists.

You brought up Ovie as a comparable to Laine. I remember reading in this thread on his rookie year until someone reminded you he was 21 when he entered the NHL, not 18.

As for what I expect. I expect Laine to put up a rookie year goal wise like other similar 1st or 2nd overall picks Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, Hall, Seguin, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Hopkins, Barkov, Yakupov, Eichel.

So yes, 25 is quite a reasonable target. Anything better which would not be a surprise would be a bonus, since only a few in the modern NHL have hit 30. Or even 30+. Which is Even rarer.
 
Is that true? I've been reading the matthews thread and am seeing him considered superior to well established players like Kopitar and Eichel. If you think that that's underrating, aren't you overrating with your entire premise, here?


I at least have provided counter-examples on video when people complained about Laine's perceived weaknesses.

Umm 19 out of 20 understood those comparisons were based on Kop, Eichel at the same point Matthews is now.
Still the comparisons regarding Laine have been way way worse.

I have been a lurker going on 6-7 yrs and the Laine hype is right up there with 1st yr Mack.
 
The topic used to have more professional manner in it, prior to knowing which team was drafting where. Timing isn't a coincidence. What happened was that Leafs won the lottery, figured who their target was and suddenly dozen of the people from that camp (who didn't even bother checking in this thread) swarmed in raving about AM's superiority, while the Finns and the rest were mostly focusing on Laine. Later on Matthews vs Laine thread emerged, got trashed down (never made any sense getting rid of the toxic waste dump instead of letting it re-surface here) and we're back to square one.

Should the "neutrals" favour Laine for any reason, they are labelled as Leaf haters. If the Finns think Laine is the BPA of the draft, they are obviously homers. The fun part is, you make your own voes or in this case "haters". If there was an actual club (which there isn't), one could think twice of maybe having part in creating one. The common policy of treating people as you'd like to be treated applies in the wonderful world of the internet as well.

Nowdays if you want to have an actual, intellectual or even interesting conversation about Laine, you have to filter out 90% of the posts. Leafs fan should just stay on the Matthews topic and be happy to have him and let go of their insecurities, cause that is without a question the one and the only reason they are either trashing Laine or coming up with any and all kinds of flaws (whether they exist or not). There is no other distinctive quality in human to rationalise the behaviour.

Right, it's not like Laine homers don't spam every thread about AM. Give it a rest. Both sides have extreme posters who do the exact thing you are complaining about. Then you have the reasonable posters who actually do just want to talk about Laine or AM who feel compelled to defend their position against the others. It's actually quite impressive that the Finns who participate in this **** show hold their own against a fan base that vastly outnumbers them. In a weird way it reminds me of WWII and the Winter War.
 
You brought up Ovie as a comparable to Laine. I remember reading it earlier on his rookie year until someone reminded you he was 21 when he entered the NHL, not 18.

As for what I expect. I expect Laine to put up a rookie year goal wise like other similar 1st or 2nd overall picks Kane, Tavares, Stamkos, Hall, Seguin, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Hopkins, Barkov, Yakupov, Eichel.

So yes, 25 is quite a reasonable target. Anything better is a bonus, since only a few in the modern NHL have hit 30. Or even 30+. Even rarer.
No, actually quote what I say, don't paraphrase it to twist it, like alot of posters do to Laine's comments. I said in response to the comment of Laine wanted to be Ovi in 5 years, that Ovi was Ovi out the gate, I factored in age, and Ovi was 20 his entrie rookie year, not 21. Laine's bread and butter is his go to trait which is goal scoring, so to expect slightly more than some of the guys listed isn't unrealistic, they in some cases are primarily playmakers strong 2-way guys, very balanced offensive players or a combination. The only guys I'd classify as snipers are Stamkos, who I have problems using as a baseline due to how he was used in his rookie year (realistically his goals should of been around 27 if used like most first overall picks) and Seguin (who was drafted by a legit contender so opportunities were limited).

Ovi would be the best baseline, but its unrealistic due to the fact of how Ovi's rookie year was called (way too many powerplays) and entering the league a year late due to the lockout. I'd say somewhere between Skinner and Tavares in regards to goal scoring is where expectations should lie. That is not setting him up for failure, that is what I would think is a balanced analysis. We could go back a bit further and use Kovalchuk who got 29 in 65 games, as he was a spring birthday who came over immediately, and scoring wasn't significantly higher, but that may also be setting expectations too high. Very rare for pure sniping wingers to go this high.
 
I am very curious to see how Laine will adapt to the NHL sized rink and style. A lot less space will mean his skating will be targeted by his opponents and his shots will be contested a lot faster than before(due to smaller rinks/space).

Out of all of the top 3 players in this draft, Laine will have the most to adapt to IMO.

5 on 5, he's not as effective as Matthews or Puljujarvi TODAY. In saying that, it can come in time.
 
Also, I wish more players were encouraged to be like Laine. That type of personality is what sells sports, too bad hockey players are often trained to be as boring as possible.
 
I am very curious to see how Laine will adapt to the NHL sized rink and style. A lot less space will mean his skating will be targeted by his opponents and his shots will be contested a lot faster than before(due to smaller rinks/space).

Out of all of the top 3 players in this draft, Laine will have the most to adapt to IMO.

5 on 5, he's not as effective as Matthews or Puljujarvi TODAY. In saying that, it can come in time.

You are right about Matthews, but not about Puljujärvi.

Difference between Laine and Pulju was (95% of the time) night and day when they played against each other in 7-game series at FEL playoffs. Only after U-18 we did know that Pulju did play injured, so that's a good excuse, I think. I didn't watch Pulju's games, except one I think, between WJC and his injury in late season when he reportedly played with a good confidence and was able to score really nice numbers.

I wish more people were watching his play at FEL playoffs. 5-on-5, 4-on-4, 5-on-4, 5-on-3, whatever. He was on fire, and very valuable for his team also when he was not scoring, but for example backchecking.
 
I am very curious to see how Laine will adapt to the NHL sized rink and style. A lot less space will mean his skating will be targeted by his opponents and his shots will be contested a lot faster than before(due to smaller rinks/space).

Out of all of the top 3 players in this draft, Laine will have the most to adapt to IMO.

5 on 5, he's not as effective as Matthews or Puljujarvi TODAY. In saying that, it can come in time.

Laine's home rink is a hybrid, not international. He'll require half the adaptation in comparison to players who come from environments with international size rinks.

BTW, Laine is far more useful without the puck than Puljujärvi, so I'm sure he'll be better in 5v5 than him. Have you watched them play? Laine was dominating vs Kärpät almost every shift, Puljujärvi was mostly invisible despite scoring some points. Do you know what the Kärpät fans were saying during the series?

Regarding injuries, well Laine was more productive earlier on in the season as well. In fact, in his first 33 games he scored 27 points.
 
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I am very curious to see how Laine will adapt to the NHL sized rink and style. A lot less space will mean his skating will be targeted by his opponents and his shots will be contested a lot faster than before(due to smaller rinks/space).

Out of all of the top 3 players in this draft, Laine will have the most to adapt to IMO.

5 on 5, he's not as effective as Matthews or Puljujarvi TODAY. In saying that, it can come in time.

Laine has fantastic puck skills, very good vision, a very quick hockey mind, and a fantastic shot with an unreal release. Those things translate very well to smaller rinks with less time. Think about Corey Perry and Getzlaf and Jagr. All big guys that dominate because of their size, hockey sense and puck skills. Laine's skating will be more than fine once he settles into the size of his frame and strengthens his legs a bit more.
 
Laine has fantastic puck skills, very good vision, a very quick hockey mind, and a fantastic shot with an unreal release. Those things translate very well to smaller rinks with less time. Think about Corey Perry and Getzlaf and Jagr. All big guys that dominate because of their size, hockey sense and puck skills. Laine's skating will be more than fine once he settles into the size of his frame and strengthens his legs a bit more.

No doubt, 100% agree.

I also think he will improve his skating.

I still believe he will have a harder time than Matthews and Puljujarvi in the NHL AT FIRST because the other two are elite skaters, but he'll be more than fine once he gets it going.
 

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