LW Juraj Slafkovsky - TPS Turku, Liiga (2022, 1st, MTL) Part 2

[bert]

The argument being made by many though is that he’s the best player in the draft. Who was the last 1OA that barely produced at the club level? Usually, that spot isn’t a draft slot where you swing for the fences. The player picked there usually doesn’t have significant questions about how they project. The international games work in Slafkovsky’s favor, but it doesn’t mean that the club numbers are irrelevant.

Eye test matches the skillset and upside as well as his production at the international level. It's not hard to see why he is such a tantalizing player. Quinn Hughes and Seider both looked like absolute studs at the WHC. It's a pretty good indication if an underage undrsfted player looks dominant against men it will translate.

 

[bert]

Do people forget that Slaf has had worse production in the LIGA versus Aho, KK, Laine, etc.
Yes all good players but his production was wayyyyy under those players. He produced at 2 mens tournaments on big ice, and most of his points came against weak teams with no NHL players (France , Italy , Kazakhstan, Norway, etc)

This bolded isn't accurate at all. Do you also realize he was a 17 year old playing down in the lineup in a foreign country?.... Once he settled in he was more productive. Secondly you know that the WHC were played in Finland right. How on earth did you decide playing on the same sheet of ice could be held against him.... Talk about showing your agenda. Secondly those players you're comparing him to are A good and B were at home in organizations they grew up in... Unfortunately people on HF boards are going to have to come to grips that there is more to evaluating a player than cherry picking their stats. Watching them and projecting their development is actually part of it too.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Eye test matches the skillset and upside as well as his production at the international level. It's not hard to see why he is such a tantalizing player. Quinn Hughes and Seider both looked like absolute studs at the WHC. It's a pretty good indication if an underage undrsfted player looks dominant against men it will translate.

So did Kakko and he had better Liiga stats than Slaf in his draft year.

Making wild assumptions on a player based on short tournaments is a dangerous game. You have to put the whole season into context and you have to put a big ???? next to Slaf's Liiga year because it wasn't good for a projected 1st rounder from that league, let alone a guy vying for 1.

Where Seider's production and ice-time in the DEL as a defenseman is something you don't see from a teenager and Quinn Hughes was absolutely dominant as a draft eligible freshman in the NCAA. You can easily understand why Hughes & Seiders draft year production in their domestic leagues were more impressive than Slaf's and the world championship was not an aberration.

 

[bert]

So did Kakko and he had better Liiga stats than Slaf in his draft year.

Making wild assumptions on a player based on short tournaments is a dangerous game. You have to put the whole season into context and you have to put a big ???? next to Slaf's Liiga year because it wasn't good for a projected 1st rounder from that league, let alone a guy vying for 1.

It's not a wild assumption though he is quite clearly very talented. if you are unable to identify it thats on you. Ironically youre the one not taking the whole season into context. Youre basing it on his fiest 20 games rather than the last 40. He was good in the Liiga once he returned from the Olympics. Practice what you preach next time.

Kakko while productive didn't showcase the same elite level of skill in his skillset.

Habs fans in general have seemingly lost their minds. Stop taking your Shane Wright insecurities into evaluating other prospects in this draft.

 

[tmlmatus]

Sure sucks to be a Habs fan, according to this forum; they are either drafting a lazy 3rd line center, or Joel Armia.

 

[WeThreeKings]

It's not a wild assumption though he is quite clearly very talented. if you are unable to identify it thats on you. Ironically youre the one not taking the whole season into context. Youre basing it on his fiest 20 games rather than the last 35. He was great in the Liiga once he returned from the Olympics. Practice what you preach next time.

I understand that he's talented. I think he's in the conversation as soon as 3rd overall and completely understand why NJD would take him 2 over a center.

I am taking the whole season into context. His last 35 was better but it still wasn't anything to write home about. The fact is, no matter how you cut his Liiga season, it's low production for a 1st rounder let alone a top 5 pick.

You will get into a lot of trouble when evaluating players if you like a guy and just defend everything about his season. There's questions to be asked about his Liiga production and his Liiga season as a whole. When you evaluate a player, you make far less mistakes when you look at the entire picture instead of small sample sizes in tournaments.

 

[bert]

I understand that he's talented. I think he's in the conversation as soon as 3rd overall and completely understand why NJD would take him 2 over a center.

I am taking the whole season into context. His last 35 was better but it still wasn't anything to write home about. The fact is, no matter how you cut his Liiga season, it's low production for a 1st rounder let alone a top 5 pick.

You will get into a lot of trouble when evaluating players if you like a guy and just defend everything about his season. There's questions to be asked about his Liiga production and his Liiga season as a whole. When you evaluate a player, you make far less mistakes when you look at the entire picture instead of small sample sizes in tournaments.

Stop lecturing me about 'being in trouble' its an asinine comment. He was the MVP of the Olympic games at 17 years old that is something to write home about. Leading Slovakia in scoring at the WHC at 17 is something to write home about. 12 points in his last 28 games playing down in the lineup in which 18 games were playoff games with next to no pp time in a men's league at 17 years old is something to write home about. The only person making assumptions is an insecure fan that thought when the Habs won the lottery they were getting a slam dunk generational player. Now that you've started to look at hockey db and read hf boards you're realizing it's not true. Watch some games and stop lecturing people that actually have watched these players play on 'not getting into trouble'

 

[WeThreeKings]

Stop lecturing me about 'being in trouble' its an asinine comment. He was the MVP of the Olympic games at 17 years old that is something to write home about. Leading Slovakia in scoring at the WHC at 17 is something to write home about. 12 points in his last 28 games playing down in the lineup in which 18 games were playoff games with next to no pp time in a men's league at 17 years old is something to write home about. The only person making assumptions is an insecure fan that thought when the Habs won the lottery they were getting a slam dunk generational player. Now that you've started to look at hockey db and read hf boards you're realizing it's not true. Watch some games and stop lecturing people that actually have watched these players play on 'not getting into trouble'

I have Cooley at 1 so stop projecting your nonsense onto me.

I'm trying to have a rational conversation to contextualize Slafkovsky's season but you seem more interested in dealing with absolutes on two short tournaments.

I guess Sean Farrell is the best prospect not in the NHL after his olympics and worlds for Team USA - and he did that at 5'9" so he's clearly superior as he did it without Slaf's physical gifts.

 

[bert]

I have Cooley at 1 so stop projecting your nonsense onto me.

I'm trying to have a rational conversation to contextualize Slafkovsky's season but you seem more interested in dealing with absolutes on two short tournaments.

I guess Sean Farrell is the best prospect not in the NHL after his olympics and worlds for Team USA - and he did that at 5'9" so he's clearly superior as he did it without Slaf's physical gifts.

You're suggesting that we use his first 20 games over his last 40. There was going to be a transition phase when a 16/17 year old moves to a new country playing against men.

Having size is an asset and historically bigger players have longer development curves. It actually makes it more impressive what he has done at 17 given his size. Not less. Less time to grow into his frame. Wait until he is 25 years old.... He is going to be an absolute beast. His game resembles Hossa, watch the way he tracks the puck. Frankly as a sens fan I pray Montreal picks Cooley/Wright. I don't wanna see this player in the division. With his motor size and skill you couldn't find a better fit for Suzuki and Caufield.

 

[WeThreeKings]

You're suggesting that we use his first 20 games over his last 40. There was going to be a transition phase when a 16/17 year old moves to a new country playing against men.

Having size is an asset and historically bigger players have longer development curves. It actually makes it more impressive what he has done at 17 given his size. Not less. Less time to grow into his frame. Wait until he is 25 years old.... He is going to be an absolute beast. His game resembles Hossa, watch the way he tracks the puck. Frankly as a sens fan I pray Montreal picks Cooley/Wright. I don't wanna see this player in the division.

No, I'm saying you put his entire season into context and understand that his production simply wasn't good enough over -the entirety- of his schedule. Not to overreact to two tournaments with subpar competition, the latter of which he produced against weaker nations.

I am also saying you don't throw out those tournaments entirely and focus only on his Liiga production. You put it all together and don't overreact to -both- his low production for a Liiga year for a 1st round pick and his production in those tournaments.

Looking at the body of his work and his actual skill-set and he's not a first overall prospect. He's a top 5 prospect, but he's not a 1st overall prospect. Especially when he's matched up to two centers who are projecting to be 1st line centers at the NHL level.

He's good great hands, he's sneaky fast, he's got unique size and good puck protection. However, his hockey IQ is not that great (which makes the Hossa comparison ridiculous, especially since his defensive game is passive) and his playmaking skills aren't anything more than average. He doesn't play inside nearly enough and he's not mean or physical by any stretch.

The majority of his passing game is rushing the puck into the offensive zone, taking the perimeter lane, and just throwing the puck back or into the slot. There's no manipulation, there's no intention, it's just bulldoze and hope plays.

His goal scoring and uniqueness makes him an intriguing player. He will score 25-35 regularly. But do I see a situation where he gets more than 30 apples in a season? No, I don't. There's nothing in his game at any level, Liiga, Olympics or Worlds that has ever flashed anything but average playmaking. If he's not going to be mean and physical on top of the goal production, why would I take him over Wright or Cooley? His position is already a negative value compared to the 2 centers.

Wright is the better shooter.
Cooley is the better skater.
Cooley is the better passer.
Cooley has better hands.
Wright has better IQ.
Cooley & Wright are centers.
Wright is better defensively.

The only thing Slafkovsky has over those players is his size. He ranks behind them in every offensive and defensive category you can stack him against. There's simply no way to justify taking Slafkovsky above Wright or Cooley unless you are New Jersey with Hughes, Hischier and Mercer already down the middle.

 

[NewEraGM]

It was on smaller ice. He didnt play vs Norway

Ok well you get my point about playing against weaker competition. Most of his points came against that calibre of team…

 

[NewEraGM]

This bolded isn't accurate at all. Do you also realize he was a 17 year old playing down in the lineup in a foreign country?.... Once he settled in he was more productive. Secondly you know that the WHC were played in Finland right. How on earth did you decide playing on the same sheet of ice could be held against him.... Talk about showing your agenda. Secondly those players you're comparing him to are A good and B were at home in organizations they grew up in... Unfortunately people on HF boards are going to have to come to grips that there is more to evaluating a player than cherry picking their stats. Watching them and projecting their development is actually part of it too.

Well actually it is accurate…most of his points did come against those teams or that calibre of team.

Also, I did acknowledge that those players were good players so don’t pretend as if I didn’t acknowledge that and my point was that his production was wayyyy below theirs.

It’s funny you bring up stats because one of the main knocks on Wright is « his lack of production. » so I csn say the same thing about those who critique Shane.

Point is, Slafs production in LIGA this year was not very good. Sure you csn still think he will be a great player but it’s a fact his production was subpar.

 

[Fatass]

No, I'm saying you put his entire season into context and understand that his production simply wasn't good enough over -the entirety- of his schedule. Not to overreact to two tournaments with subpar competition, the latter of which he produced against weaker nations.

I am also saying you don't throw out those tournaments entirely and focus only on his Liiga production. You put it all together and don't overreact to -both- his low production for a Liiga year for a 1st round pick and his production in those tournaments.

Looking at the body of his work and his actual skill-set and he's not a first overall prospect. He's a top 5 prospect, but he's not a 1st overall prospect. Especially when he's matched up to two centers who are projecting to be 1st line centers at the NHL level.

He's good great hands, he's sneaky fast, he's got unique size and good puck protection. However, his hockey IQ is not that great (which makes the Hossa comparison ridiculous, especially since his defensive game is passive) and his playmaking skills aren't anything more than average. He doesn't play inside nearly enough and he's not mean or physical by any stretch.

The majority of his passing game is rushing the puck into the offensive zone, taking the perimeter lane, and just throwing the puck back or into the slot. There's no manipulation, there's no intention, it's just bulldoze and hope plays.

His goal scoring and uniqueness makes him an intriguing player. He will score 25-35 regularly. But do I see a situation where he gets more than 30 apples in a season? No, I don't. There's nothing in his game at any level, Liiga, Olympics or Worlds that has ever flashed anything but average playmaking. If he's not going to be mean and physical on top of the goal production, why would I take him over Wright or Cooley? His position is already a negative value compared to the 2 centers.

Wright is the better shooter.
Cooley is the better skater.
Cooley is the better passer.
Cooley has better hands.
Wright has better IQ.
Cooley & Wright are centers.
Wright is better defensively.

The only thing Slafkovsky has over those players is his size. He ranks behind them in every offensive and defensive category you can stack him against. There's simply no way to justify taking Slafkovsky above Wright or Cooley unless you are New Jersey with Hughes, Hischier and Mercer already down the middle.

Can’t teach hockey IQ, size, and elite puck skills.
Defence, although about character and willingness to sacrifice, can be taught.
This is why I think Stafloski has the highest ceiling of the top guys. He has the “it” factor and all the other characteristics that can’t be taught. And he’s displayed these on the world stage against high level men’s teams.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Can’t teach hockey IQ, size, and elite puck skills.
Defence, although about character and willingness to sacrifice, can be taught.
This is why I think Stafloski has the highest ceiling of the top guys. He has the “it” factor and all the other characteristics that can’t be taught. And he’s displayed these on the world stage against high level men’s teams.

His hockey IQ is pretty limited. I'd qualify it as completely average.

Here's a good video that explains everything I've seen all year with Slafkovsky.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Assuming he goes to NJ, how nice of a mixture in different skills/size is Hischier, Hughes x2, Holtz, and Slafkovsky? Once they get a goalie the devils will be fun to watch.

 

[bert]

No, I'm saying you put his entire season into context and understand that his production simply wasn't good enough over -the entirety- of his schedule. Not to overreact to two tournaments with subpar competition, the latter of which he produced against weaker nations.

I am also saying you don't throw out those tournaments entirely and focus only on his Liiga production. You put it all together and don't overreact to -both- his low production for a Liiga year for a 1st round pick and his production in those tournaments.

Looking at the body of his work and his actual skill-set and he's not a first overall prospect. He's a top 5 prospect, but he's not a 1st overall prospect. Especially when he's matched up to two centers who are projecting to be 1st line centers at the NHL level.

He's good great hands, he's sneaky fast, he's got unique size and good puck protection. However, his hockey IQ is not that great (which makes the Hossa comparison ridiculous, especially since his defensive game is passive) and his playmaking skills aren't anything more than average. He doesn't play inside nearly enough and he's not mean or physical by any stretch.

The majority of his passing game is rushing the puck into the offensive zone, taking the perimeter lane, and just throwing the puck back or into the slot. There's no manipulation, there's no intention, it's just bulldoze and hope plays.

His goal scoring and uniqueness makes him an intriguing player. He will score 25-35 regularly. But do I see a situation where he gets more than 30 apples in a season? No, I don't. There's nothing in his game at any level, Liiga, Olympics or Worlds that has ever flashed anything but average playmaking. If he's not going to be mean and physical on top of the goal production, why would I take him over Wright or Cooley? His position is already a negative value compared to the 2 centers.

Wright is the better shooter.
Cooley is the better skater.
Cooley is the better passer.
Cooley has better hands.
Wright has better IQ.
Cooley & Wright are centers.
Wright is better defensively.

The only thing Slafkovsky has over those players is his size. He ranks behind them in every offensive and defensive category you can stack him against. There's simply no way to justify taking Slafkovsky above Wright or Cooley unless you are New Jersey with Hughes, Hischier and Mercer already down the middle.

Slakovsky played against inferior competition.... What?... Then you compare him to Wright and Cooley.... I do not agree with your scouting report and assessment. He has a very similar skillset to Hossa. Hossa's game wasn't built off hockey sense. It was his physical gifts. This breakdown is not accurate especially when you start talking about Wright.

Slafkovsky was more noticeable against pro players than Wright was against Jr's.

If you actually think Wright has a better motor, defensive presecence and a better skater you're lost. I saw Wright play 6 times live this year and a bunch more on t.v. He was scored on 26 times in the playoffs.... Underwhelming is an understatement. He was consistently behind the play, lost a disturbing amount of puck battles.

I am not going to pretend I watched Cooley enough to breakdown his game. I saw him at the WJC and U 18. I saw flashes, thought he was better at the WJC but I am not going to b.s you and pretend I know enough about him to make an educated comparison. I hope you're doing the same but with your scouting report on Skafkovsky I highly doubt it.

 

[tmlmatus]

the whole 'put up points against weaker competition' is such a joke of an argument.

if we are going to do that; might as well discount any point production for Wright and Cooley since they played against kids.

I do agree with his Ligga production being a bit of a concern tho.

 

[Garbageyuk]

There was no iron curtain for almost two years at the time of his draft.

Slafkovsky being a likely third liner is a ridiculous take. That is his floor. He played 7 games at the olympics and 8 games at the WC, that is 15 games and he looked like the best player on his team for almost every game. I don't know how many fingers do you have on your hand, but for most of us, 15 is more than a handful, and if you call the Olympics or the WC weak competition, then how can you rank players who only ever played against juniors ahead of him?

It was still during the tail-end of the Cold War, and I doubt many scouts were eager to fly to Eastern Europe. Scouting wasn’t like today.

And I said his numbers in Liiga project him as a 3rd liner. I still think that’s the most likely outcome. His floor is a complete bust, not in the NHL or out after struggling for a few seasons.

Imo, Slafkovsky could end up being anywhere from a bust, to a 30g/30a 1st line guy with a season or two where he maybe scores a little more - similar to Filip Forsberg in terms of production.

 

[Rusty7550]

No, I'm saying you put his entire season into context and understand that his production simply wasn't good enough over -the entirety- of his schedule. Not to overreact to two tournaments with subpar competition, the latter of which he produced against weaker nations.

I am also saying you don't throw out those tournaments entirely and focus only on his Liiga production. You put it all together and don't overreact to -both- his low production for a Liiga year for a 1st round pick and his production in those tournaments.

Looking at the body of his work and his actual skill-set and he's not a first overall prospect. He's a top 5 prospect, but he's not a 1st overall prospect. Especially when he's matched up to two centers who are projecting to be 1st line centers at the NHL level.

He's good great hands, he's sneaky fast, he's got unique size and good puck protection. However, his hockey IQ is not that great (which makes the Hossa comparison ridiculous, especially since his defensive game is passive) and his playmaking skills aren't anything more than average. He doesn't play inside nearly enough and he's not mean or physical by any stretch.

The majority of his passing game is rushing the puck into the offensive zone, taking the perimeter lane, and just throwing the puck back or into the slot. There's no manipulation, there's no intention, it's just bulldoze and hope plays.

His goal scoring and uniqueness makes him an intriguing player. He will score 25-35 regularly. But do I see a situation where he gets more than 30 apples in a season? No, I don't. There's nothing in his game at any level, Liiga, Olympics or Worlds that has ever flashed anything but average playmaking. If he's not going to be mean and physical on top of the goal production, why would I take him over Wright or Cooley? His position is already a negative value compared to the 2 centers.

Wright is the better shooter.
Cooley is the better skater.
Cooley is the better passer.
Cooley has better hands.
Wright has better IQ.
Cooley & Wright are centers.
Wright is better defensively.

The only thing Slafkovsky has over those players is his size. He ranks behind them in every offensive and defensive category you can stack him against. There's simply no way to justify taking Slafkovsky above Wright or Cooley unless you are New Jersey with Hughes, Hischier and Mercer already down the middle.

At the olympics he scored 3 goals vs Sweden, 2 vs Finland, 1 vs USA, 1 vs Latvia. So he was scoring against really good hockey teams. And even teams like Denmark, Kazakhstan at the WHC. They have players from top eu leagues ... KHL, Sweden. Finland .... Its a men's hockey. Much difficult compare to junior hockey. And honestly, you can discredit so many 18yo players who played at the WHC. Laine scored 12 points 7+5 .... He had only 1 assist vs TOP countries (USA, Canada 2x, Russia). Eichel similar. Btw, Slaf has better hands and shot than both Wright and Cooley.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Btw, Slaf has better hands and shot than both of these guys.

You can not possibly believe this.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

At the olympics he scored 3 goals vs Sweden, 2 vs Finland, 1 vs USA, 1 vs Latvia. So he was scoring against really good hockey teams. And even teams like Denmark, Kazakhstan at the WHC. They have players from top eu leagues ... KHL, Sweden. Finland .... Its a men's hockey. Much difficult compare to junior hockey. And honestly, you can discredit so many 18yo players who played at the WHC. Laine scored 12 points 7+5 .... He had only 1 assist vs TOP countries (USA, Canada 2x, Russia). Eichel similar. Btw, Slaf has better hands and shot than both of these guys.

I've never seen this guy play but I'm approximately 110% confident he does not have both better hands than Jack Eichel and a better shot than Patrik Laine.

EDIT: misunderstanding

 

[Rusty7550]

I've never seen this guy play but I'm approximately 110% confident he does not have both better hands than Jack Eichel and a better shot than Patrik Laine.

I didn't write that correctly. I was talking about Wright and Cooley.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I didn't write that correctly. I was talking about Wright and Cooley.

Fair enough.

 

[Rusty7550]

You can not possibly believe this.

Better than Wright and Cooley. Not Laine and Eichel. I didnt write that corretly. Sorry for that.

 

[Xirik]

How is this different than the Slak fanboys going to the Wright thread and posting negatives about him?? Wright will be 1OA.

Two wrongs don't make a right? Be the better person?

I have no doubts that Wright will go 1st.