Let's talk, specifically, about our D
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Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Regardless of his partner, I think most people are expecting an individual bounce-back year production-wise as well as checking-wise. Of course it's a symbiotic relationship with his partner and you raise the important point, but that's not to say he can't be individually better as well.
I love Voynov and I expect a better year from him.
I also don't understand the need to discuss the D. It's as good as its going to get, and its damn good in my opinion.
This same D (essentially the same D) has back-ended two Cup winners in three years, and took an injury-riddled team to the WCF in the middle year.
I mean, what in the **** is their to discuss, anyway?
By the boldfaced I don't know if you mean "it can't get better" or "we're not going to improve it before the season." I kind of tend to agree with the second one. It's definitely not essentially the same D going into next year, though. No Mitchell, a slightly older Regehr, a pretty green McNabb, a question-mark for bounceback in Greene and Voynov, and the hope for consistency with both Doughty and Muzzin. Lots of moving parts imo. And you can't ever just stand pat really, look at what everyone around us is doing.
Gonna be some growing pains this year, don't expect another Jennings. (though that may be balanced out by Quick playing better throughout the season).
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I'm just hoping people don't use Mitchell as a stick with which to beat McNabb. At some point he'll cost us a GWG and the GDT will be full of "Mitchell would not have made that mistake".
We all need to realise that this year will be when he beds in. He'll screw up, maybe even more than once
and that's all part of the AHL -> NHL transition. What I'm looking for is a kid that plays with intensity, provides physical presence, decent in his own end and most importantly learns. If at the end off the season the consensus is that he's a lock for the 2015/16 roster I'll be pretty happy.
Reaper45
Registered User
If we made it through with Muzzin, well do ok with McNabb who isn't too far off from Muzzin.
Personally I'd love to see Regehr moved not because he sucks but because as a whole I'd love to see the d far more mobile. Stralman or Stoner would've been ok but not at the prices they went for. Still would like to trade some potential aka King or Clifford for a mobile Dman in their mid to late 20's.
Personally I'd love to see Regehr moved not because he sucks but because as a whole I'd love to see the d far more mobile. Stralman or Stoner would've been ok but not at the prices they went for. Still would like to trade some potential aka King or Clifford for a mobile Dman in their mid to late 20's.
I meant basically when they signed Schultz the writing was on the wall, that they weren't going to go after a D in free agency and it wasn't going to get better than this at this time. Maybe something gets done at the trade deadline next season, if what has transpired up to that point calls for it.
I still think we are in good shape. Sure, other teams made moves and improved but we didn't need to (IMHO).
Bolded part: But we don't need to, as long as we are in the top 5 defensively, and I see that happening. A lot of fans were disconcerted by the lack of quality defense int he playoffs, but this bears reminding: we faced the number 5, number 2, and number 7 offensive teams in the first three rounds. We were going to take a beating in net no matter what. That's a lot of offensive firepower, and it kept the Kings' defenders on their toes for much of the playoffs. (The Rangers were number 11.)
I did a comparison to 2012, just for fun. We faced the number 1, number 4, and number 12 offensives in the WCF playoffs, and the number 7 in the Final.
Our defense was amazing that year in the playoffs. No two ways to cut that.
I'm not that worried about the D. It doesn't matter so much who is back there as much as how well they stay within the structure. Obviously you don't want a bunch of AHL'ers or trained monkeys back there, but you get the point.
Remember, we played the top scoring team in the league in the playoffs without Mitchell and Regher and allowed 2.14 goals against per game. That's with a rusty Matt Greene and Jeff Schultz playing his first games for the Kings. I know we all would have felt way more comfortable with Mitchell and Regehr in, but given the QOC, the Anaheim series was our best defensively in the playoffs. Our defense functions as a whole, not as a lot of parts.
There aren't 3 SAH guys still playing at a high level like a few years ago, but Muzzin took huge strides late in the year. He's never going to have the hockey mind of a Mitchell, but you can really tell he is teachable and that he's got the tools to play both offense and defense effectively. I'm perfectly fine with Greene/Regehr/Muzzin/McNabb as our SAH guys going into the season.
And if it doesn't work, I think we all know that Dean will address it.
Remember, we played the top scoring team in the league in the playoffs without Mitchell and Regher and allowed 2.14 goals against per game. That's with a rusty Matt Greene and Jeff Schultz playing his first games for the Kings. I know we all would have felt way more comfortable with Mitchell and Regehr in, but given the QOC, the Anaheim series was our best defensively in the playoffs. Our defense functions as a whole, not as a lot of parts.
There aren't 3 SAH guys still playing at a high level like a few years ago, but Muzzin took huge strides late in the year. He's never going to have the hockey mind of a Mitchell, but you can really tell he is teachable and that he's got the tools to play both offense and defense effectively. I'm perfectly fine with Greene/Regehr/Muzzin/McNabb as our SAH guys going into the season.
And if it doesn't work, I think we all know that Dean will address it.
agentfouser
Playoffs?!?!
2, 5, 7, 11 is not really that different from 1, 4, 12, 7. By those numbers, the level of competition was pretty similar, and I don't see that as a valid explanation for why our defense performed worse in this playoff run than in 2012.
I think the bottom line is that our defense has deteriorated in the loss of Scuderi and now Mitchell. Granted, there wasn't much we could do about Scuderi and he was declining anyway; and Mitchell got hurt and is also declining anyway. Regher and Muzzin now are simply not as good as Scuderi and Mitchell were in 2012 though, so I think it's totally accurate and fair to note that our defense is not as good as it once was. To me, that's a problem. The slot next to Voynov remains our lineup's weakest point.
This is a result of Lombardi's decisions: he decided to acquire Regher, a move that I didn't like at the time, and then signed him to a two-year deal, another move I thought was ill-advised; Lombardi chose to spend Bernier on Matt Frattin, another move I thought was poor. Getting Gaborik was a terrific move (but doesn't in any way make the Bernier deal better), but again spending assets and then cap space on him meant that a defensive upgrade was impossible. Locking up Greene is more of the same.
So, Lombardi has clearly decided that it was more important to upgrade the offense at the expense of the defense. (The salary cap makes this essentially a zero-sum game, though one that we can play more efficiently than other teams.) I have to admit, I thought at the beginning of this past season, literally from game one, that we wouldn't go anywhere in the playoffs with a defense that included Greene, Mitchell, and Regher. Ultimately, I was wrong, though I certainly didn't expect Gaborik to come in and provide such a powerful new offensive dimension for us. I should note, however, that our defense improved substantially once we benched Greene in favor of Martinez.
Now, at this point, it's all academic. Signing Gaborik and Greene has pretty much locked us into this lineup. I don't see how a move is made to improve the defense this year. I think we would have been a better team overall if we had been able to acquire someone truly competent to play alongside Voynov, rather than re-sign Gaborik, who is frequently injured and declining statistically. But, hey, Lombardi didn't agree (or perhaps couldn't find a suitable defensive candidate), and so here we are. It appears than any defensive improvement will have to come from within, so I sure hope McNabb can step into serious minutes soon.
I think we'll see teams key in on Voynov and his partner. He and Regher/McNabb/Greene (please no) will struggle to contain other teams' top forwards, as they did this past year. I hope that Gaborik remains healthy enough and our offense potent enough to make up for that weakness, because it's going to be there.
kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
We are returning with six regulars from this years team (several having been on both cup winning teams) and we have McNabb in the wings, a kid DL/scouts obviously have a lot of wood over (and who are we to doubt them). Let's at least give them 20 games before declaring the D our weak point and worrying about it. They just won another cup, they earned the right to get a few games to 'prove' themselves.
HYORI 1963
Grit & Character
Ron - I think you made a mistake in your 2011-2012 rankings of offense.
Pitt was #1 at 3.33 G/Gm
Van was #5 at 2.94 G/gm
PHX was #18 at 2.56 G/Gm
STL was #21 at 2.51 G/Gm
NJ was #16 at 2.63 G/Gm
I do honestly believe that facing the toughest offenses in this years playoffs was a big factor in our inflated Goals against average. Outside of VAN, did anyone else's offense scare anyone that year?
Reclamation Project
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tsanuri
Registered User
If Anton Strallman got 4.5 mil, want do you think Alec Martinez will want when his contract is up? The kings better not let him become a free agent.
HYORI 1963
Grit & Character
cyclones22
Registered User
It's time to let go of the 2012 defense comparisons. I mentioned this in another thread and the numbers that team defense gave up that year was historically great. Look it up, I'm not doing all your homework for you! But it was the best defense over 102 games this century and likely longer than that. They gave up 170 goals in the regular season and only 30 goals in 20 playoff games. 200 total goals in 102 total games. Unless I missed something, there is no team that let in fewer goals in total or an average over the course of regular season + playoffs, including the dead puck era.
FYI, did anyone read the Sports Illustrated article of the Cup issue? It specifically says that during the Olympic break, Sutter was plotting on how to dethrone the Blackhawks and decided that the best way was not to try and contain them and play bend but don't break, but to attack them and throw offense right back in their face. I thought it was an interesting read.
FYI, did anyone read the Sports Illustrated article of the Cup issue? It specifically says that during the Olympic break, Sutter was plotting on how to dethrone the Blackhawks and decided that the best way was not to try and contain them and play bend but don't break, but to attack them and throw offense right back in their face. I thought it was an interesting read.
HYORI 1963
Grit & Character
Sutter's best move was letting the kids play. Without the kids, we would have been knocked out in the first round.
tsanuri
Registered User
Martinez could cost us dearly.
And I think it's going to come down to a few things.
1. Does he get more respect from Sutter.
2. Does he want a bigger role?
And the last two that are the most important to the team really
3. What will it cost?
4. What will we lose depending on the cost?
Because someone will offer him money just like that.
And next year we have Williams and Stoll as UFA's. Regehr as a 35+ UFA.
Then Pearson, Toffoli and Muzzin as RFA's.
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HYORI 1963
Grit & Character
agentfouser
Playoffs?!?!
People still talking about loss of Scuderi???
In a thread about the current state of our defense, our roster moves for the past two years are relevant, are they not?
This makes a big difference from what I posted earlier. If the offenses we faced in 2012 were that much weaker, then it's a little harder to disentangle our own roster from our opponents in explaining the differences in performance then and now.
cyclones22 said:
This is an important point, and one that I did not know. Nevertheless, once we have set the gold standard for defense, why not try to maintain that?
Ultimately, my comments about the defense are multifold in their aim. I'm interested in making a critique of Lombardi's roster moves, because he prioritized offense over defense. I think it's more than fair to bring that to light, both in an academic sense (it is interesting to see the dynamics of a hockey franchise play out over time) and in a critical sense (general managers' decisions should be made explicit and critiqued so that their performance can be evaluated). Moreover, I think it's very interesting that Lombardi made the choices that he did, after saying for the first few years of his tenure here that teams are built from the net out. How can we explain this apparent contradiction? Has Lombardi changed his views? Are the realities of the hockey talent pool such that maintaining that level of defensive dominance was simply impossible? Has he been trying things and having to revert to plan B, which involved strengthening the offense instead of the defense? Does he actually think that our defense now is as good or better than it was in 2012?
These are interesting questions to me, and the comparisons between 2012 and 2014 are a natural source of information. This is particularly the case when one considers 2013, a year in which--in my view--our defensive downgrades were our downfall. Sure, people have made the case that it was forward depth, and there's merit to that argument. Nevertheless, from looking at the 2013 playoff year as a whole, I saw a Kings team that didn't look like a Kings team; we struggled to stop our opponents in the neutral zone, struggled to transition to offense, and didn't play as a five-man unit. The major changes that I see as relevant to that are to the defensive corps. So, yeah, our recent history provides a well of information relevant to our current situation. I don't see any reason to stop talking about it.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Totally agree.
And for the record, I don't think anyone in this thread is saying the sky is falling, just pointing out room for improvement.
I don't get it
I didn't read anyone pining for Scuderi and wishing he was in our lineup now, all I read was a few posters pointing out that 2012 Scuderi was a beast and the loss of that model affected our D just as losing Mitchell will. Those are very different things.
kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
An address change if he asks for anything close that.
DL let Willie Mitchell walk at $4.25 million, you think he'll keep Martinez at that price?
The Kings have a TON of d-prospects in the system and after next year several will have two or more years of pro experience. Promote one and let Martinez walk if he thinks he should be getting that kind of Pejorative Slured money. Gaborik's still in LA because he was willing to make it work cap wise (albeit over a very long term). Willie's not because he wanted the money (which is fine, he's free to choose to do so). If A-Mart wants to stay in LA, he makes the cap hit work. If he wants the money he can find a moving company.
The overall success of LA does not depend on Martinez, all jazz hands and overtime heroics aside.
cyclones22
Registered User
The 2013 defense was clearly an outlier. That's the easiest one to explain and quite frankly should be discounted altogether. No Greene for almost the entire season and no Mitchell period. That was straight up scrambling with the lockout shortened season and trying to patch up a defense missing 2/3 of its SAH defenders without panicking and selling the farm. DL did the right thing and didn't panic and drastically overpay for help. 2 seconds for Regehr wasn't horrid all things considered. It could've been much worse to shoot for better and likely would've cost us Pearson/Toffoli. We THANKFULLY transitioned out Scuderi and Muzzin has thrived. I expect a similar transition for McNabb, unless he completely flops in training camp.
Here are more interesting stats. The season before we drafted Drew Doughty, 28th in goals against. That's right, 28th! Then they leapt to 11th in Drew's rookie season. Then 9th, 7th, 2nd (that's a bingo!), 8th (hi injury bug) and then 1st (cha-ching!). Lombardi and the Kings aren't changing philosophy. They had to adapt to beat the very best offenses in the league, while still battling injury at the blueline. Once everyone was healthy and they had to face a mere mortal offensive team in the Rangers, it was back to allowing less than 2 goals per game, adjusted with overtime. I don't think there's more of a lean towards offense in 2014 and beyond. The simple fact is we have (and NEEDED) more game-breakers now and without them, we're the Blues. And we know that formula ain't winning jack.
Here are more interesting stats. The season before we drafted Drew Doughty, 28th in goals against. That's right, 28th! Then they leapt to 11th in Drew's rookie season. Then 9th, 7th, 2nd (that's a bingo!), 8th (hi injury bug) and then 1st (cha-ching!). Lombardi and the Kings aren't changing philosophy. They had to adapt to beat the very best offenses in the league, while still battling injury at the blueline. Once everyone was healthy and they had to face a mere mortal offensive team in the Rangers, it was back to allowing less than 2 goals per game, adjusted with overtime. I don't think there's more of a lean towards offense in 2014 and beyond. The simple fact is we have (and NEEDED) more game-breakers now and without them, we're the Blues. And we know that formula ain't winning jack.
Reclamation Project
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rajuabju
The One & Only
Lombardi has already proven himself to be the Jedi master of cap-friendly contracts.
If he wants Muzzin and/or Martinez to stay, he'll get them to stay.
If he wants Muzzin and/or Martinez to stay, he'll get them to stay.
Kings got the Jennings with Muzzin on the first pairing and Scrivens/Jones starting a bunch of games when Quick was out. Not worried at all about the D.
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