Post-Game Talk: Legends of the Visible Garden

[Machinehead]

Agree on a hardass coach too, but just because you personally don't respect Mark Messier credentials, doesn't mean that 99% of the players, coaches, execs and owners also wouldn't.

And for clarity Im saying its much more likely Mess would be President of the team than a coach.

If you were asking for how I would approach things if I had to hire a new front office, MSG Networks would be looking for some new bodies to fill in on postgame. Henrik should be President of the team and Valliquette should be GM. Henrik never stood for losing and Vally knows how to combine traditional hockey scouting and analytics better than any voice ive heard.

If you're looking for a figurehead at the top to just set a tone, I'm not against Hank. He's a bit more down to earth.

Messier has too much ego. That's why he's never been given the opportunity. He wouldn't let the experienced guys run the hockey ops. Hank would.

Frankly, I think "I wanna do none of the work but have the job because I'm entitled to it" is exactly the attitude people are fed up with.

Valiquette would be ideal as an AGM but he needs somebody that can tell him no. If Valiquette fully ran the team, they would be doing nothing but royal road passes.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Well......the struggle is real . We are a soft and slow club and don't want to do any grunt work to make plays out of nothing . Our talent is playing below par.....I think Lavi will be gone soon enough and maybe Drury with him and they bring in coach Q and last but not least.....Messier as the acting GM and they likely hire a cap specialist to assist him .

I can come kind of understand fans wanting Messier as coach since he's supposed to be a good leader. What qualifications does he have to be GM? Nostalgia for old timers?

 

[McRanger92]

I can come kind of understand fans wanting Messier as coach since he's supposed to be a good leader. What qualifications does he have to be GM? Nostalgia for old timers?

A winning culture. We've won a lot of games since Covid, but I wouldnt say we have a culture of winning. Torts was able to build one, but it's long gone. Guys who will do whatever it takes to win, dive to block a shot, take a hit to make a play, etc. Our team does none of this. It doesnt have to be messier, it just think thats who Dolan is going to pick. There's a lack of accountability with the entire organization.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

A winning culture. We've won a lot of games since Covid, but I wouldnt say we have a culture of winning. Torts was able to build one, but it's long gone. Guys who will do whatever it takes to win, dive to block a shot, take a hit to make a play, etc. Our team does none of this. It doesnt have to be messier, it just think thats who Dolan is going to pick. There's a lack of accountability with the entire organization.

Then make him head of HR. To be a GM you should be able to understand how to build a team. Messier has no background in that.

 

[DialUp]

The fact that this team, on Dec 10th, is still within wild card distance is a disgrace. What a crap crap year so far. The gauntlet we are going to be up against end of month into the new year will be hell on earth

 

[will1066]

I can come kind of understand fans wanting Messier as coach since he's supposed to be a good leader. What qualifications does he have to be GM? Nostalgia for old timers?

He wouldn't give a goalie $11.5M a year

Then make him head of HR. To be a GM you should be able to understand how to build a team. Messier has no background in that.

Like a position in player development or something.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

He wouldn't give a goalie $11.5M a year

Not sign 1 but 2 players with an unmovable contract.

 

[Machinehead]

A winning culture. We've won a lot of games since Covid, but I wouldnt say we have a culture of winning. Torts was able to build one, but it's long gone. Guys who will do whatever it takes to win, dive to block a shot, take a hit to make a play, etc. Our team does none of this. It doesnt have to be messier, it just think thats who Dolan is going to pick. There's a lack of accountability with the entire organization.

We need to reset to a young core and then get them the right coach. That's where that culture comes from. The ethos of Torts hockey stayed with that team even after Callahan and Dubinsky were gone. The shift started when Brad Richards went to Chicago, if you think about it. Once Carl Hagelin was gone, the era was over.

Spencer Carbery has a pretty weak Caps roster playing a killer brand of hockey. I don't think he would have done anything here, because this is already the team we have, but as an example, he's formed a new culture on a new-look team.

I said it last night: Quinn was a disaster of a hire. Torts set a tone that lasted 6, 7 seasons. Quinn set the tone that if you're a veteran, you play how you feel like playing. And then they followed that up with another babysitter in Gallant. I don't mind Laviolette; he just had no chance of getting through.

 

[will1066]

Not sign 1 but 2 players with an unmovable contract.

They wouldn't be soft guys. He hates soft players.

 

[Bob Richards]

It’s incredible to hate this core for being lazy and entitled players and also just want to hand Mark Messier a job.

Since he retired, Messier hasn’t lifted a finger to prove to anyone why he deserves to get hired. He’s wanted something just handed to him for 20 years now and refuses to pay his dues.

That we should just gift wrap Messier an important job for this franchise because he was good at a completely different job 30 f***ing years ago makes my head spin.

 

[Matt Rentfree]

Not sign 1 but 2 players with an unmovable contract.

He should be involved in the scouting process. It's far and away his best area. His trades have been a mixed bag and he sucks at player management and negotiating contracts.

 

[Machinehead]

Apropos of nothing, if you want to trade a bunch of bodies off this team, and usher in a new core, and Adam Fox is one of the bodies you want to move, and then you spend the entire next window looking for a 1D when we have a 1D that's 26, you belong in prison.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

There's an argument to be made that you don't turn down 28 year old Hall of Famers, though.

You do in that scenario.

He wasn’t the right player in that scenario and we have hindsight to lean on there. They may have backed their way into a cup if he didn’t dud up during the playoffs too.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

You’d think they’d realize after the 35th dump and chase attempt didn’t work that they weren’t going to score on a dump and chase last night. But nope!

 

[McRanger92]

We need to reset to a young core and then get them the right coach. That's where that culture comes from. The ethos of Torts hockey stayed with that team even after Callahan and Dubinsky were gone. The shift started when Brad Richards went to Chicago, if you think about it. Once Carl Hagelin was gone, the era was over.

Spencer Carbery has a pretty weak Caps roster playing a killer brand of hockey. I don't think he would have done anything here, because this is already the team we have, but as an example, he's formed a new culture on a new-look team.

I said it last night: Quinn was a disaster of a hire. Torts set a tone that lasted 6, 7 seasons. Quinn set the tone that if you're a veteran, you play how you feel like playing. And then they followed that up with another babysitter in Gallant. I don't mind Laviolette; he just had no chance of getting through.

I think this culture started with AV. Kreider, Mika turn the other cheek hockey. It doesnt play in the modern NHL, where you need to be willing to rip someone else's heart out to get the puck. But we can't keep blaming old coaches for today's problems. Laviolette seems content to get himself fired at this point because he hasnt made a single adjustment related to the untouchable vets getting less ice. Massive disappointment.

 

[Machinehead]

I think this culture started with AV. Kreider, Mika turn the other cheek hockey. It doesnt play in the modern NHL, where you need to be willing to rip someone else's heart out to get the puck. But we can't keep blaming old coaches for today's problems. Laviolette seems content to get himself fired at this point because he hasnt made a single adjustment related to the untouchable vets getting less ice. Massive disappointment.

AV sucks ass but I don't know if he had anything to do with those two, specifically.

Zibanejad just isn't that talented and can't do anything under duress. He has a good shot. He has 4th line hands if you put pressure on him. He's had to play gimmick hockey and cheat for space to make money in this league. Nobody was fixing that.

AV Kreider was pretty awesome, and so was Quinn Kreider. Under Gallant, he reinvented himself as a goal-scorer due to age and mounting injuries, and that was *checks notes* pretty awesome. Now he's even older and not producing at the same level he was. I don't think there's anything to Kreider other than age and being a player who's taken a lot of physical abuse over the years.

 

[Ruggs225]

Apropos of nothing, if you want to trade a bunch of bodies off this team, and usher in a new core, and Adam Fox is one of the bodies you want to move, and then you spend the entire next window looking for a 1D when we have a 1D that's 26, you belong in prison.

But the mystery box can be a boat

 

[Siddi]

Zibanejad just isn't that talented and can't do anything under duress. He has a good shot. He has 4th line hands if you put pressure on him. He's had to play gimmick hockey and cheat for space to make money in this league. Nobody was fixing that.

This is just an insane take.

The player you are describing would not be able to put up 700 points in the NHL.

 

[Machinehead]

This is just an insane take.

The player you are describing would not be able to put up 700 points in the NHL.

Chris Kreider is also terrible on the puck and probably ends up with over 700 points.

Not every point producer has hands.

 

[McRanger92]

AV sucks ass but I don't know if he had anything to do with those two, specifically.

Zibanejad just isn't that talented and can't do anything under duress. He has a good shot. He has 4th line hands if you put pressure on him. He's had to play gimmick hockey and cheat for space to make money in this league. Nobody was fixing that.

AV Kreider was pretty awesome, and so was Quinn Kreider. Under Gallant, he reinvented himself as a goal-scorer due to age and mounting injuries, and that was *checks notes* pretty awesome. Now he's even older and not producing at the same level he was. I don't think there's anything to Kreider other than age and being a player who's taken a lot of physical abuse over the years.

People have been asking Kreider to play physical and more engaged his entire career. It's not something that just popped up the other day and wasn't an issue before. He's been a great Ranger and probably is going to the rafters regardless, but for me he was destined to be the captain and never was for what reason? He is clearly a respected guy by vets and young players. I dont understand it and it's a blemish on his resume. especially how bad things went with Trouba as captain, who very few of the fanbase every embraced. This stuff does matter.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I think this culture started with AV. Kreider, Mika turn the other cheek hockey. It doesnt play in the modern NHL, where you need to be willing to rip someone else's heart out to get the puck. But we can't keep blaming old coaches for today's problems. Laviolette seems content to get himself fired at this point because he hasnt made a single adjustment related to the untouchable vets getting less ice. Massive disappointment.

Things got dire under AV but they turned over nearly the entire roster from his last season here by the time they were in the summer of 2019 and even more so by 2020.

The 2018-19 team sucked so hard. That team is one of the worst teams I’ve watched in my life. That was the most wretched hockey ever.

They worked their balls off though. One of the three things I’ll give Quinn credit for is that he had that team giving a shit when they had every reason not to.

If you want to point to when things shifted, it was when they traded for Trouba and signed Panarin. Quinn had no idea how to handle that and the next 2 guys have either let the Vets do what ever they want or ridden them despite the younger, lesser known players being better.

 

[Siddi]

Chris Kreider is also terrible on the puck and probably ends up with over 700 points.

Not every point producer has hands.

One is already at 700 points while being younger, the other have 140 points left to reach that milestone. Mika will be close to 1000 points whenever Chris reaches 700.

If we take games played into account then the separation is even bigger.

You need to refresh your memory my friend. Go watch some highlight videos from Mikas best seasons.

 

[Machinehead]

People have been asking Kreider to play physical and more engaged his entire career. It's not something that just popped up the other day and wasn't an issue before. He's been a great Ranger and probably is going to the rafters regardless, but for me he was destined to be the captain and never was for what reason? He is clearly a respected guy by vets and young players. I dont understand it and it's a blemish on his resume. especially how bad things went with Trouba as captain, who very few of the fanbase every embraced. This stuff does matter.

Not everyone is an asshole like Sam Bennett. Most guys aren't. That's why these players are sought after.

I've said it a million times before: have we seen Kreider and Adam Graves in the same room?

Graves was also a quiet, unassuming dude who was willing to take abuse in tight areas and scored a bunch of goals. He was never the captain and he probably wouldn't swat a fly. I wasn't on the internet when I was 7, but Graves doesn't seem to get treated with the same level of criticism that Kreider does.

Did Graves do something different, or did those fans just grow up with Messier so they never expected Graves to be something he isn't?

 

[TGWL]

You can lose speed quickly. You can start shying away from contact quickly. Zibanejad lost his hand-eye coordination way too quick. I don't know if there's something wrong with his hips or back, but it's painful to watch him try and shoot a puck off the pass these days. I mean it's painful to watch him do anything that requires pushing a puck off his stick.

I'm sure the offseason mindset will be "How do we improve the current team" but it needs to be how do we completely revamp this team.

 

[Machinehead]

One is already at 700 points while being younger, the other have 140 points left to reach that milestone. Mika will be close to 1000 points whenever Chris reaches 700.

You need to refresh your memory my friend. Go watch some highlight videos from Mikas best seasons.

"He can't operate under pressure."

"Oh yeah? Go watch a bunch of highlights of him scoring goals while operating in space!"