Post-Game Talk: Legends of the Visible Garden

[McRanger92]

I'm not saying he's despised because people want to trade him this season. I'm saying he's despised because every time I see his name pop up particularly in social media it's about how much of an underachiever he is. Never once is it in a positive light.

I think he's the most liked Ranger player on the team right now by the fanbase. People question the captaincy stuff. There have been times where I didnt think it mattered but it times of turmoil when they needed leadership, he hasn't stepped up. Not recently at least.

 

[mas0764]

You can, but... the issue is that the Rangers ended up attempting to ride two horses at once, with the obvious result. So the rationalization itself was the mistake to begin with.

Again, it's possible that you can sign Panarin and stash him for the 7 year deal and then keep making moves for the future.

In retrospect he's symbolic of their unwillingness to do that. They signed him and then thought, hey, we have to win RIGHT NOW!!

Not sure why. A 7 year contract with a Hall of Fame player buys you time.

They were unwilling to do so and here we are. They purchased themselves 2 conference finals appearances. Hurray.

Anybody paying attention (and not blinded by homerism) saw that this team wasn't good enough to go further. It's never, ever have enough forward talent in the pipeline, that's always been blatantly clear. And they were getting close on D but a lot of that went belly up as well.

 

[Peltz]

You can, but... the issue is that the Rangers ended up attempting to ride two horses at once, with the obvious result. So the rationalization itself was the mistake to begin with.

Creating a winning culture for a new class of players is one way to avoid the rebuild turning into the Buffalo Sabres. So even in that sense you could theoretically justify it.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

You could still, even today, argue both sides of that decision.

If Islanders got him, they'd probably have a cup right now. The fact that they don't is almost worth the price of admission alone lol.

No doubt, Panarin's signing completely changed the direction of the franchise. I think the goal there was to speed up the rebuild to get one more run in for Hank's tenure since he wouldn't waive his NMC.

I thought so too at one point.

We’ve seen what he does in the playoffs though. His contract would have resulted in them needing to do pretty major surgery to open up the space necessary. Entirely possible they don’t make it as far as they did during their short window.

 

[mas0764]

We will never be the Sabres or Coyotes.

We are an original 6 team and we will spend money.

The Dark Ages weren't even that long in retrospect, for as bad as they were.

This franchise knows how to build a playoff team. It's not hard for them.

It's building a contender that's the hard part and that they've never understood. Sadly some of the fans don't know the difference either, they think "just get in and we have as good a chance as anyone." That is false, there are tiers of playoff teams and we can conclusively state that this team has not reached that top tier since at least 2015. And even then it was for like, a single season.

 

[Slaydagnar]

If we want to set the standard on a right way to play, and I think that's fair, I'd rather hire a hardass coach (not Messier who hasn't coached a competitive hockey game in 14 years LMAO).

The front office should be looking to bring in talent and speed. Looking for grit in player acquisitions always leads to bad players. You need to develop that kind of thing by having a core with an identity, and the talent to execute.

You’ve always been wrong on your take on “grit” Machinehead and continue to spew nonsense
There are players that are skillful, fast and gritty. Those add the players you target to scout. Players with character and grit.
Follow Bill Zito’s blueprint he was an ex players agent but moved into management.
He developed an appreciate for just that gritty skillful players and a gritty old coach Paul Maurice -he went out and got the players and coach and Won a Cup and they will win again this year.
Your take on grit is asinine stop now shhh

 

[Peltz]

We will never be the Sabres or Coyotes.

We are an original 6 team and we will spend money.

The Dark Ages weren't even that long in retrospect, for as bad as they were.

This franchise knows how to build a playoff team. It's not hard for them.

It's building a contender that's the hard part and that they've never understood. Sadly some of the fans don't know the difference either, they think "just get in and we have as good a chance as anyone." That is false, there are tiers of playoff teams and we can conclusively state that this team has not reached that top tier since at least 2015. And even then it was for like, a single season.

I'd argue we were a contender last year if Zibanejad or Trouba played halfway up to the level we signed them at. They didn't and were actively terrible.

Last year we were absolutely contenders though. We swept in the first round and won round 2 in six games against an analytically tough opponent. In fact, we won something like 7 straight games to start the playoffs last year. By all accounts, that was a high point for this franchise in the last 10 years or so.

If your definition of "contender" is that you had to win the cup, then Florida was the only actual contender last year. But Rangers did take some games off of them too.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Creating a winning culture for a new class of players is one way to avoid the rebuild turning into the Buffalo Sabres. So even in that sense you could theoretically justify it.

No you can’t because they were 16 months into the rebuild.

It was way too early and they had barely even began to separate themselves from the previous core.

It’s one thing to try to just ride out being bad for a half decade and have it go nowhere. They didn’t even give it 2 years.

 

[CLW]

Creating a winning culture for a new class of players is one way to avoid the rebuild turning into the Buffalo Sabres. So even in that sense you could theoretically justify it.

They never did create a winning culture. They rode their stars until they were ready for the glue factory and the devil take the hindmost young players who were supposed to be the actual core going forward. This split mind vision failed to work, unsurprisingly.

JohnC just put forward one reason why, there never was a healthy plan, or vision, supporting the operation. Instead there was rot. Just a long series of kicking the can down the road. That's not leadership or management in any meaningful sense. That's an org on autopilot.

 

[Machinehead]

You’ve always been wrong on your take on “grit” Machinehead and continue to spew nonsense
There are players that are skillful, fast and gritty. Those add the players you target to scout. Players with character and grit.
Follow Bill Zito’s blueprint he was an ex players agent but moved into management.
He developed an appreciate for just that gritty skillful players and a gritty old coach Paul Maurice -he went out and got the players and coach and Won a Cup and they will win again this year.
Your take on grit is asinine stop now shhh

Thanks for your feedback, I'm going to take that into account.

 

[McRanger92]

Creating a winning culture for a new class of players is one way to avoid the rebuild turning into the Buffalo Sabres. So even in that sense you could theoretically justify it.

Unfortunately the culture this roster created was one of relying on the goalie and special teams to bail out lackadaisaical efforts 5v5.

 

[will1066]

I'd argue we were a contender last year if Zibanejad or Trouba played halfway up to the level we signed them at. They didn't and were actively terrible.

Last year we were absolutely contenders though. We swept in the first round and won round 2 in six games against an analytically tough opponent. In fact, we won something like 7 straight games to start the playoffs last year. By all accounts, that was a high point for this franchise in the last 10 years or so.

If your definition of "contender" is that you had to win the cup, then Florida was the only actual contender last year. But Rangers did take some games off of them too.

That we beat Carolina had as much as Carolina beating themselves. I don't disagree that we were contenders.

 

[Machinehead]

Again, I don't think it has much to do with Panarin himself.

The possibility did exist of getting Panarin when he was available, and then in 2-3 years the team starts coming together, with Panarin still giving you some good years.

The Panarin signing signaled that they were saddling the horses and going into battle, which they absolutely did.

If there was a single bomb that derailed the team, it was the Zibanejad contract. If we just missed the playoffs one more time in 2022, I'm not convinced we sign it.

 

[CLW]

Again, I don't think it has much to do with Panarin himself.

The possibility did exist of getting Panarin when he was available, and then in 2-3 years the team starts coming together, with Panarin still giving you some good years.

The Panarin signing signaled that they were saddling the horses and going into battle, which they absolutely did.

If there was a single bomb that derailed the team, it was the Zibanejad contract. If we just missed the playoffs one more time in 2022, I'm not convinced we sign it.

True. But one bad move makes the margin for error that much smaller. Panarin was an "obvious" move, signing Zib was an "obvious" move, but there was nobody there to look beyond the "obvious".

It's the same thing with the Igor contract. Looks "obvious" now but again the team will have less room for error in the future.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Would like to see Mika, Kreider and Trochek replaced on PP1 with Laf, Cuylle and Berard. Season is over so might as well develop the young player's offensive skills

This is the amazing thing with this group. All the "young" players - who now in Chytil's case means 25 years old - have to take a back seat to 93, 20, 10, 16. It has been this way for what, four years now? or more?

The "kid line" shit was old two years ago. But in reality, it's barely changed. The only thing is Laffy gets to play with Bread. But he still is excluded from the first power play unit.

And this happens no matter how bad 93, 20, 10, 16 are. And no matter who the coach is.

Bizarre.

 

[zlev]

You’ve always been wrong on your take on “grit” Machinehead and continue to spew nonsense
There are players that are skillful, fast and gritty. Those add the players you target to scout. Players with character and grit.
Follow Bill Zito’s blueprint he was an ex players agent but moved into management.
He developed an appreciate for just that gritty skillful players and a gritty old coach Paul Maurice -he went out and got the players and coach and Won a Cup and they will win again this year.
Your take on grit is asinine stop now shhh

Floridas front office has one of the best analytical departments in the league. they constantly find "Moneyball" type players that are underappreciated and underutilized. they found Forsling and Montour for nothing. other than Tkachuk and Bennett (who they got for just a 2nd and a low end prospect!!!) who was "gritty" on that team? both also just happen to be amazing analytical players that drive play. they targeted that first and the "grit" just came with it. their front office almost always makes the right move at the right time. it has nothing to do with grit and everything to do with "having players that are Good".

 

[zlev]

Not everyone is an asshole like Sam Bennett. Most guys aren't. That's why these players are sought after.

I've said it a million times before: have we seen Kreider and Adam Graves in the same room?

Graves was also a quiet, unassuming dude who was willing to take abuse in tight areas and scored a bunch of goals. He was never the captain and he probably wouldn't swat a fly. I wasn't on the internet when I was 7, but Graves doesn't seem to get treated with the same level of criticism that Kreider does.

Did Graves do something different, or did those fans just grow up with Messier so they never expected Graves to be something he isn't?

eh, Graves was a lot more of a hardnosed player than Kreider has ever been. he could be a real bastard on the ice. if you go watch some games from the 1994 playoffs he was constantly mixing shit up, crashing the net, throwing hits. he didn't ever have Kreider's speed but he was a guy who was hellbent to win. i love Kreider and yeah the stats look similar but i would take mid-90's Graves over any version of Chris Kreider. but also, Graves was completely shot by the time he was the age Kreider is now.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

You’ve always been wrong on your take on “grit” Machinehead and continue to spew nonsense
There are players that are skillful, fast and gritty. Those add the players you target to scout. Players with character and grit.
Follow Bill Zito’s blueprint he was an ex players agent but moved into management.
He developed an appreciate for just that gritty skillful players and a gritty old coach Paul Maurice -he went out and got the players and coach and Won a Cup and they will win again this year.
Your take on grit is asinine stop now shhh

I don't want to speak for him but nothing @Machinehead said is criticizing gritty players who are skilled with speed. But the problem is most people want gritty at all costs. Doesn't matter how skilled or fast they are. Just grit for the sake of grit. As long as a player is gritty he's good. And that's bullshit. I'm pretty sure Machinehead would welcome players that are skilled, fast, and gritty.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't want to speak for him but nothing @Machinehead said is criticizing gritty players who are skilled with speed. But the problem is most people want gritty at all costs. Doesn't matter how skilled or fast they are. Just grit for the sake of grit. As long as a player is gritty he's good. And that's bullshit. I'm pretty sure Machinehead would welcome players that are skilled, fast, and gritty.

If the guy's good, I don't care about the rest!

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If the guy's good, I don't care about the rest!

The thing is, fast, skilled, and gritty. How many of those players are out there? The point is if you can't get a unicorn you go with fast and skilled and not gritty over gritty but not fast and skilled.

 

[UnSandvich]

The thing is, fast, skilled, and gritty. How many of those players are out there? The point is if you can't get a unicorn you go with fast and skilled and not gritty over gritty but not fast and skilled.

To use a video game analogy, there’s a triangle you use when building a boss encounter. 3 points: Fast, Strong, and Tough. A boss encounter should only ever max out on two of those otherwise it’s just oppressive. You can make em fast and tough, fast and strong, or strong and tough, but rarely all 3 at once.

Similarly, a skilled, fast, gritty player is a unicorn in the NHL. Almost always you’ll have to compromise somewhere. You’re going to either get a slower guy who’s gritty with skill (A Tkachuk type for instance), a quick and gritty guy who falls behind in skill (Carl Hagelin or Jason Chimera perhaps), or a speedster with skill who really doesn’t add much grit-wise (Chytil maybe)

 

[SnowblindNYR]

To use a video game analogy, there’s a triangle you use when building a boss encounter. 3 points: Fast, Strong, and Tough. A boss encounter should only ever max out on two of those otherwise it’s just oppressive. You can make em fast and tough, fast and strong, or strong and tough, but rarely all 3 at once.

Similarly, a skilled, fast, gritty player is a unicorn in the NHL. Almost always you’ll have to compromise somewhere. You’re going to either get a slower guy who’s gritty with skill (A Tkachuk type for instance), a quick and gritty guy who falls behind in skill (Carl Hagelin or Jason Chimera perhaps), or a speedster with skill who really doesn’t add much grit-wise (Chytil maybe)

And then you have guys that suck and have grit. And these are the guys this fanbase loves.

 

[romba]

Drury gonna panic and trade Kakko for Sammy Blais and a 2nd round pick. Kakko immediately becomes a point per game guy.

Kakko not even close to Buch stratosphere when we traded him…which makes that trade even sadder

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't want to speak for him but nothing @Machinehead said is criticizing gritty players who are skilled with speed. But the problem is most people want gritty at all costs. Doesn't matter how skilled or fast they are. Just grit for the sake of grit. As long as a player is gritty he's good. And that's bullshit. I'm pretty sure Machinehead would welcome players that are skilled, fast, and gritty.

Yup.

Latest iteration of that is the repeated beating of the drum for Rempe.

 

[ArPanet]

It's gonna be Messier if Drury gets canned. Not sure why people are expecting. Interim GM Ryan Martin to perform major surgery on a team with locker room issues? Not likely imo.

I blame him for McIlrath, too.