Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose

[AvroArrow]

This thread is filling with people blaming Dubas and Keefe... it is interesting.

The players have not stepped up (especially recent signings), and we are somehow blaming the old GM.

Let's see what they look like 15-20 games in, but it is crazy to blame the old GM for the new GM's signings.

The old GM signed Tavares, which ultimately destroyed this teams cap flexibility and resulted in us losing Hyman and Kadri

The old GM got bent over by RFAs which added to our cap problems

The old GM is 95% responsible for the current team, Tre has been here for how many months ? This is still mostly the team he inherited.

I don't think anyone is blaming Dubas for Reaves, Bertuzzi, Domi. Rather blaming him for losing guys like Hyman, Kadri and being unable to add proper depth pieces because he allocated like 50% of the cap to 4 players.

 

[The Iceman]

3rd line centre to be addressed after the road trip.
I could see Domi to 3rd line centre flip flopping with Kampf and McMann up.

If they think Holmberg is ready maybe give him a try but at 3rd or 4th line??

3rd line centre will be a target@ the trade deadline no doubt.

 

[notbias]

The old GM signed Tavares, which ultimately destroyed this teams cap flexibility and resulted in us losing Hyman and Kadri

The old GM got bent over by RFAs which added to our cap problems

The old GM is 95% responsible for the current team, Tre has been here for how many months ? This is still mostly the team he inherited.

I don't think anyone is blaming Dubas for Reaves, Bertuzzi, Domi. Rather blaming him for losing guys like Hyman, Kadri and being unable to add proper depth pieces because he allocated like 50% of the cap to 4 players.

Just so I understand, the 4 players leading the Leafs in points are the issue currently this season.

Not the players who all seem to be a liability defensively and are putting up no points that were just signed.

 

[Kurtz]

Never in the modern NHL has an enforcer deterred players from running around and doing dumb things.

This isn't the 80s.

Domi will end up "protecting" the top players more than Reaves.

Reaves is not just going to grab Tkachuk and start feeding him punches, and Tkachuk is not going to be deterred by being talked to.

Signing Reaves was always a mistake and people will start to realize it more and more.

Kulikov hit Nylander from behind, and this big scary enforcer did nothing, not even a talking to.



So far, he has done none of that either.

What do you mean when you say he hasn't done it either? The Kulikov play wasn't a hit, rather a push that was borderline boarding at worst. Other than that, have you seen other teams take liberties with our stars like they have in the past?

Do folks expect that Reeves will deter the entire opponent's roster from any and all physicality?

 

[rumman]

The team is a mess. You have virtually nothing on the farm that can help this team today.

Exactly. I suggested this yesterday and was poo pooed……..

 

[The Iceman]

The old GM signed Tavares, which ultimately destroyed this teams cap flexibility and resulted in us losing Hyman and Kadri

The old GM got bent over by RFAs which added to our cap problems

The old GM is 95% responsible for the current team, Tre has been here for how many months ? This is still mostly the team he inherited.

I don't think anyone is blaming Dubas for Reaves, Bertuzzi, Domi. Rather blaming him for losing guys like Hyman, Kadri and being unable to add proper depth pieces because he allocated like 50% of the cap to 4 players.

If the old GM is responsible the old GM did pretty good then.
Best Leaf regular season ever, won a round which 75% of teams do not, and IMO won the trade deadline with additions and subtractions.

How good does Sandin for Cowan+GUS rental look??

 

[notbias]

What do you mean when you say he hasn't done it either? The Kulikov play wasn't a hit, rather a push that was borderline boarding. Other than that, have you seen other teams take liberties with our stars like they have in the past?

Do folks expect that Reeves will deter the entire opponent's roster from any and all physicality?

No, no one expects that, these have all been normal games, and the only people who have had to answer for anything so far in any of our games have been Gregor and Reaves.

The Nylander play was not borderline boarding, it was boarding, on the numbers, push 2 feet out, on one of our best players, and no response from anyone.

This is a silly argument, it will be all opinion, but he is not a deterrent for anyone in my opinion, and it is being shown in our games.

 

[rumman]

Currently their best players are the ones left by Lou. 16, 34, 88 and 44. Jury is out on 37 and 60.

Tre is responsible for 3, 59, 11, 18 and 75.

The rest are on Dubas. 35, 91, 55, 78, 22, 64, 19, 23, 39.

Cowan looks promising.

At least some of these mistakes are on short term contracts…….in my best Monty Python voice “always look on the bright side of life……..”

 

[The Iceman]

I would love to see it, Nylander can drive a line by himself.

Domi - Matthews - Marner
Knies - Tavares - Bertuzzi
Robertson - Nylander - Jarnkrok
Gregor - Kampf - Holmberg

Get Domi going on that line, plus he is a good passer and that is our best shooter.
Second line would grind some teams down, that is a hard forechecking line who can cycle.
Third line could do some real damage offensively, questionable defensively, but Jarnkrok will help.
Fourth line is defensively responsible and has some offensive upside.

I know that 4th line won't happen, and in that case maybe Holmberg instead of Robertson, adds some more defensive help to the 3rd line and doesn't remove much offense, also gives you another C option.

Willy is a fabulous winger, you can put him in the centre position but you will be dissapointed.

I wonder if marner could be a Point type centre. Way more responsible defensively. I would prefer that.

 

[GrizzGreen]

What a no show loser performance by Matthews, to match his no show loser performance against them last spring.


Domi should be in the press box.

clearly didn't watch the game. Nice one Dave.

 

[AvroArrow]

If the old GM is responsible the old GM did pretty good then.
Best Leaf regular season ever, won a round which 75% of teams do not, and IMO won the trade deadline with additions and subtractions.

How good does Sandin for Cowan+GUS rental look??

1 Series win in how many years ? 1st for Foligno, trading away the Konecny pick (a guy we desperately need right now) for Dermott. Kadri for Barrie + Kerfoot, signing useless old plugs like Thornton, Simmonds.

He did a great job!

Just so I understand, the 4 players leading the Leafs in points are the issue currently this season.

Not the players who all seem to be a liability defensively and are putting up no points that were just signed.

You clearly don't understand the issue and are being difficult on purpose. Let me say it slowly and clearly

Mismanaging the cap and not addressing team needs has been the problem for the past 5 years. Paying 4 forwards 40M has been the problem. Getting bent over by RFA's has been the problem. Losing Hyman because of cap mismanagement has been a problem. Getting bent over by Sakic in the Kadri trade has been a problem. Trading a 1st for an injured Foligno has been a problem. Signing Tavares to an 11M deal with a full NMC has been a problem.

Just to add: We haven't been able to add the proper depth pieces because of how badly Dubas mismanaged the cap. I hope that is easier to understand.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

If the old GM is responsible the old GM did pretty good then.
Best Leaf regular season ever, won a round which 75% of teams do not, and IMO won the trade deadline with additions and subtractions.

How good does Sandin for Cowan+GUS rental look??

How does McCabe + Lafferty for 1st + 2nd look?

Fourth liner and a current bottom pairing dman

he made so many moves to win a round, a single one, using that as some spurt of success meter is crazy

 

[Mess]

Leafs have so many offensive weapons and yet so often they can't score when they need it most. I don't get it.

1/2 Leafs total salary Cap is invested in just 4 forwards. NO NHL team comes close to that faulty Cap management and team building strategy.

Because of the limited $$ cap available to build a Cup competitive around them.

Leafs Dcore finished 29th last year in goals scored from the Defense Core, and while the Leafs added Klingberg in an attempt to address that its still a black hole offensively.

When those 4 forwards don't score the Leafs will struggle to win games because they consume the most TOI/g and that limits the surrounding cast even more.

This is a broken record and will not be fixed until the Leafs get over the "We can and We will" IMO

 

[The Iceman]

1 Series win in how many years ? 1st for Foligno, trading away the Konecny pick (a guy we desperately need right now) for Dermott. Kadri for Barrie + Kerfoot, signing useless old plugs like Thornton, Simmonds.

He did a great job!

Team improved every year. Not easy when you are a top team.

You can look at ANY GMs transactions and not all are winners.
Were you impressed with what he got done at the trade deadline? I was pretty excited.

He was hired as an inexperienced GM. The fact that he was on the unemployment line for probably a day before being offered a job with more responsibility and a big fat raise should give you an idea that the guy was pretty good.

 

[AvroArrow]

Team improved every year. Not easy when you are a top team.

You can look at ANY GMs transactions and not all are winners.
Were you impressed with what he got done at the trade deadline? I was pretty excited.

He was hired as an inexperienced GM. The fact that he was on the unemployment line for probably a day before being offered a job with more responsibility and a big fat raise should give you an idea that the guy was pretty good.

Again, he f***ed our cap situation up horribly. He got destroyed in every single negotiation and almost every single trade he ever made.

His contracts are the reason why current management has no flexibility and cannot add the proper depth pieces. We will have to wait until the Tavares deal expires before we are real contenders.

 

[notbias]

1 Series win in how many years ? 1st for Foligno, trading away the Konecny pick (a guy we desperately need right now) for Dermott. Kadri for Barrie + Kerfoot, signing useless old plugs like Thornton, Simmonds.

He did a great job!


You clearly don't understand the issue and are being difficult on purpose. Let me say it slowly and clearly

Mismanaging the cap and not addressing team needs has been the problem for the past 5 years. Paying 4 forwards 40M has been the problem. Getting bent over by RFA's has been the problem. Losing Hyman because of cap mismanagement has been a problem. Getting bent over by Sakic in the Kadri trade has been a problem. Trading a 1st for an injured Foligno has been a problem. Signing Tavares to an 11M deal with a full NMC has been a problem.

But this year, what has been the problem? We are discussing this year.

So far, Tavares is almost 2PPG and is worth 11 million.

All the RFAs are earning their salary.

The depth was filled out by great players, go check all the threads.

The issue this year has not been anything you mentioned.

All of Dubas' players are doing great to start the season, I am just trying to understand what the issue is here.

The goalie who re-signed is doing badly, the players signed are doing badly, and the 4C who re-signed is doing badly.

The only really bad Dubas player right now is McCabe.

 

[Trapper]

At least some of these mistakes are on short term contracts…….in my best Monty Python voice “always look on the bright side of life……..”

Treliving is basically doing the same thing Dubas did. Only in reverse. Dubas trued bringing in guys like Muzzin, Barrie, then Brodie, Gio and had not much in the way of forward money to spend.

Tre basically got Klingberg and then forget D and try to bring in the forward depth you think they are lacking up front.

You have the core and you are trying to put whatever you believe that core needs to not fail in the playoffs.

So 5,6,7,8 tries later you either have to succeed or look at what keeps failing come playoff time.

 

[notbias]

Again, he f***ed our cap situation up horribly. He got destroyed in every single negotiation and almost every single trade he ever made.

His contracts are the reason why current management has no flexibility and cannot add the proper depth pieces. We will have to wait until the Tavares deal expires before we are real contenders.

They had like 15 million in space and chose how to spend it... how is that no flexibility?

Florida had 5 million in dead cap and 10 million in a goalie who didn't start the playoffs for them...

 

[thusk]

Defence is not the problem, defence has not been a problem for 3 years. It's depth scoring and consistent goaltending. Sammy has been f***ing garbage so far, there's no sugar coating it. The defence has been good enough, another game vs Florida with 1 goal, every game in the series vs them was 2 or fewer goals, 0 even strength goals.

This team is absolutely nothing like the Boudreau caps. The Carlyle Leafs were like that caps team.

Our stars don't show up consistently, they'll either destroy the opposition and pad their stats with 3-4 point games, or they'll get completely shutdown. We need consistent scoring. Scoring is as high as it's ever been in the Matthews era, Florida was without 3 of their best players and all we can generate is 1 goal?

This team needs to show up on time, we've been saying this for 20432432 years, 4 straight games we give up the first goal. They need to show up consistnetly, not score 6 goals one game and just 1 goal in the next, consistent scoring 3-4 goals a game. Matthews can't be the only one carrying the offense, Marner needs to be better and so does Tavares. Our 3rd line needs to start contributing. If Knies/Minten can't produce, sorry but send them down for another year. We need a reliable 3C who can win faceoffs and chip in offensively.

The challenge has legitimately been depth scoring and consistent play from our top 6. The defence has been more than good enough to win, and it's been like this for 3 years. The guys need to start showing up on time and show up every game, this pick and choose when to compete shit isn't gonna cut it.

Do you realise than the reason because leafs are good defensivly, its starting marner/ matthews whos making A LOT of great defensive play game after game who doesn't appear on scoresheet to help their D...and rest on foward group just follow, its not because leafs having a good D.


So complain than those 2 player didn't do enought because they only had ppg in playoff but praise leafs defensive game who started with those 2 player games... yeah thats making a lot of sens

I say it since last season but leafs need to split their core 4 on 3 different line... leafs need at least 3 line who can contribute not 4 players...

 

[The Iceman]

And remember treliving is watching and assessing this team closely for the first time.
Tweaks and upgrades will be coming our way. Give it to Amaerican Thanksgiving until he has a better read on what we have.

 

[AvroArrow]

But this year, what has been the problem? We are discussing this year.

So far, Tavares is almost 2PPG and is worth 11 million.

All the RFAs are earning their salary.

The depth was filled out by great players, go check all the threads.

The issue this year has not been anything you mentioned.

All of Dubas' players are doing great to start the season, I am just trying to understand what the issue is here.

The goalie who re-signed is doing badly, the players signed are doing badly, and the 4C who re-signed is doing badly.

The only really bad Dubas player right now is McCabe.

Inability to address team needs because of the previous regimes cap mismanagement,.

If you're simply watching stats sure, he might look good. Tavares has been a non-factor though, at 7-8 ish I don't mind him. At 11M, he's negative value, just doesn't produce enough.

The issue this year has been depth scoring, like every single other season. How do you address depth scoring ? You sign quality guys to play in the bottom 6. How do you sign quality guys, cap management and properly allocating your money. You spent 40M on 4 forwards and need to address goaltending and depth scoring, guess what happens ? You get below average players to round out the roster. You get below average players, guess what happens ? If the stars don't score 2-3 goals, you lose every game.


"Dubas players" Let's not suggest that Matthews, Marner, Nylander "Dubas' players" These are guys the organization had.

The actual Dubas players are, Tavares, Knies, Minten, Jarnkrok, Kampf, Sammy, Woll, Brodie, McCabe, Lily, Gio.

How many of those Dubas players do you think are doing great to start the season ? Maybe Lily ? Rest have been average at best, and even that's being generous.

Tre just has to keep Matthews/Marner/Nylander together for 2 more years, once JT is off the books he'll be able to properly build the team. Until then, we will see the same mediocrity.

 

[notbias]

Inability to address team needs because of the previous regimes cap mismanagement,.

If you're simply watching stats sure, he might look good. Tavares has been a non-factor though, at 7-8 ish I don't mind him. At 11M, he's negative value, just doesn't produce enough.

The issue this year has been depth scoring, like every single other season. How do you address depth scoring ? You sign quality guys to play in the bottom 6. How do you sign quality guys, cap management and properly allocating your money. You spent 40M on 4 forwards and need to address goaltending and depth scoring, guess what happens ? You get below average players to round out the roster. You get below average players, guess what happens ? If the stars don't score 2-3 goals, you lose every game.


"Dubas players" Let's not suggest that Matthews, Marner, Nylander "Dubas' players" These are guys the organization had.

The actual Dubas players are, Tavares, Knies, Minten, Jarnkrok, Kampf, Sammy, Woll, Brodie, McCabe, Lily, Gio.

How many of those Dubas players do you think are doing great to start the season ? Maybe Lily ? Rest have been average at best, and even that's being generous.

Tre just has to keep Matthews/Marner/Nylander together for 2 more years, once JT is off the books he'll be able to properly build the team. Until then, we will see the same mediocrity.

Don't use the re-signings for the RFAs as a negative if you are going to include Kampf/Sammy in the Dubas players, they could have been walked away from.

You are clearly showing your inability to think rationally.

I'd take an 11 million Tavares if he is putting up 160pts... who wouldn't?

Depth scoring was addressed this summer, go check the threads.

They had ~15 million in cap and chose how to address it.

Today I learned that 7 points in 4 games is average at best.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I agree and disagree at the same time.

People always seem to like to predict "this is the year" for young up-and-coming teams, teams coming out of rebuilds. The reality is not all rebuilds work (maybe 1/3 -1/2 rebuilds never work, just because you have a bunch of top 15 overall picks doesn't always mean you are good). Then even if your rebuild DOES work, many times it takes longer than you think.

I have watched a couple of Ottawa's games this year. I know its early, but they look for real. They started out awful last year and dealt with some big injuries. After they got over those, they started to play well and added this year and the young guys are a year older and playing great. Again, its early, but I think they are for real this year.

Buffalo? I agree they are a year behind Ottawa. The way they challenge for the division is 1.) they find a good goaltender. 2.) their stars continue to develop. Through 4 games, Levi in net is "OK" he may or may not be the guy, jury is still out. Their stars? Not so much. Their top 5 goal scorers last year totaled almost 180 goals (2.2 per game). This year so far? 3 total goals through 4 games. (0.75 per game).

We'll know more as the season goes on. Ottawa I think is going to be a legit pain for Toronto to deal with this year. Buffalo? ONLY if they get Thompson, Skinner and Tuch going but through their first 4 games those guys are no shows. Tage Thompson? He only has 15 goals less than Matthews over the last 2 seasons (including Matthews 60 goal season) and that is with Thompson missing some games also and playing hurt most of the last 2 months last year. Matthews with 6 already, Thompson just got his first.

As far as Detroit, I'm still not a believer.

Chychrun, who loads of people said was crap, is playing fantastically well. Wish the old Dooby Doo had made a move for him instead of half a dozen UFAs.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Miss Dubas yet?

Not in the least.

 

[ToneDog]

Team improved every year. Not easy when you are a top team.

You can look at ANY GMs transactions and not all are winners.
Were you impressed with what he got done at the trade deadline? I was pretty excited.

He was hired as an inexperienced GM. The fact that he was on the unemployment line for probably a day before being offered a job with more responsibility and a big fat raise should give you an idea that the guy was pretty good.

The same outfit that hired and fired Hextall and Burke hired Dubas as Director of hockey ops. Being a Leafs fan you must know teams make dumb hires (Stellick, Brophy, Smith, JFJ, Shanny, Babs, Dubas, Keefe). Let's see how it plays out for the Pens.

Chychrun, who loads of people said was crap, is playing fantastically well. Wish the old Dooby Doo had made a move for him instead of half a dozen UFAs.

To top it off, Sens got him for a song. So many missed opportunities for Dooby Doo. He always chose the wrong door.