Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose

[Zack47]

I've said it before --- the imbalance in salaries leaves us with weak secondary scoring, and it is the key weak link of this team, and every other team recently. Defense an issue? Of course, and it never gets addressed. The Core Four put up points, but if no one else does, the pressure on them just grows.

Trade someone from the core four for two players that can play, one at forward, one D.

 

[notbias]

I'm more disappointed in the lack of intensity they showed than the result.
Giordano stepped up but that was about it.

That softee stench that Dubas brought in seems to be tough to remove.

This thread is filling with people blaming Dubas and Keefe... it is interesting.

The players have not stepped up (especially recent signings), and we are somehow blaming the old GM.

Let's see what they look like 15-20 games in, but it is crazy to blame the old GM for the new GM's signings.

 

[The Iceman]

Domi and Bert had good playoffs. I find it hard to believe they fell off a cliff over the summer. Let's give it some time before we deem them the wrong pieces. My concerns are with Gio, McCabe, Brodie, Klingberg and Lily. Now those are closer to the wrong pieces as a d group IMO.

And the new players were acquired for the playoffs.

I read somewhere Brodie has only been on for one 5 on 5 goal against this season and I am pretty sure it was his wipeout game 1. TJ has been good.
Last night I liked GIO, and McCabe's play. Both played physical, smart and simple. The new D pairings were much better.

 

[ACC1224]

And the new players were acquired for the playoffs.

I read somewhere Brodie has only been on for one 5 on 5 goal against this season and I am pretty sure it was his wipeout game 1. TJ has been good.
Last night I liked GIO, and McCabe's play. Both played physical, smart and simple. The new D pairings were much better.

Certainly was a bright side in an otherwise dismal night.

 

[Apex Predator]

This thread is filling with people blaming Dubas and Keefe... it is interesting.

The players have not stepped up (especially recent signings), and we are somehow blaming the old GM.

Let's see what they look like 15-20 games in, but it is crazy to blame the old GM for the new GM's signings.

That’s what everyone did with Lou.

It’s too early to panic as this team does this all the time. Slow October and by December they’re crushing it. Let’s wait till December.

 

[Trapper]

Domi and Bert had good playoffs. I find it hard to believe they fell off a cliff over the summer. Let's give it some time before we deem them the wrong pieces. My concerns are with Gio, McCabe, Brodie, Klingberg and Lily. Now those are closer to the wrong pieces as a d group IMO.

Just because players are a good fit in one system doesn’t mean they will be here. It doesn’t mean they won’t either. However, certain guys are suited better for certain builds and coaches. It’s why bringing in guys like Simmonds and stuff doesn’t work here. We don’t play that way.

It will be up to Treliving to evaluate the season. See what works and doesn’t and get this group that isn’t built for the playoffs changed to be able to outlast and play in the playoffs.

 

[Gallagbi]

When the topic started is 'Leafs Lose' and you only mention one player it's not hard to connect the dots.

Maybe, hes certainly a problem right now, but he isnt THE problem. Last night was one of the better nights for his line and its mostly because not as much bad stuff happened

 

[ACC1224]

That’s what everyone did with Lou.

....and they still are.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Are people still failing to recognize that Dubas inherited all of the four best players on the team (Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly)? And his big time signing (which was a great one regardless) left this team in a cap crunch for years? Come on now...the argument is weak.

 

[ToneDog]

McMannn and a couple others have also been tossed around as potential options, but if you don't think that's already a good number of NHL-caliber prospects knocking on the door for one of the top teams in the league over the past half-decade, I think your expectations are a little off, and you seem to misremember what the regime before Dubas left for him to work with (despite him following a rebuild).

Because the discussion was in regards to what he left. I'm not the one that started talking about Dubas.

I like McMann but he made it through waivers. What we have on the farm are bottom 6 forwards, and they won't add much IMO.

 

[ULF_55]

Knies-Matthews-Nylander
Bertuzzi-Tavares-Marner
Robertson-Domi-Jarnkrok
Gregor-Kampf-Reaves

Jarnkrok-Matthews-marner
Knies-Tavares-Domi
Bertuzzi-Holmberg-Nylander
Gregor-Kampf-Reaves

Would be interested to see McMann on the Nylander line if Bertuzzi can't go, but Cap.

 

[SprDaVE]

A lot of passengers right now. The fourth line is god awful and starting to be a big problem, other teams are exploiting that line so badly. When the top 4 players aren't completely carrying the offence, they need the secondary players to do something... anything. Samsonov needs to be much better too.

It's very early so there's plenty of time. I ain't worried too much, but they need to adjust. I'd look at re-calling Holmberg, send Minten back to the WHL and call-up McMann instead of Benoit. Give Reaves games off if he's not going to do his job, he can't play for shit. He can still do his shtick in the room if he wants, play the music too... but please for the love of god stop playing him every game.

 

[ToneDog]

And the new players were acquired for the playoffs.

I read somewhere Brodie has only been on for one 5 on 5 goal against this season and I am pretty sure it was his wipeout game 1. TJ has been good.
Last night I liked GIO, and McCabe's play. Both played physical, smart and simple. The new D pairings were much better.

Agreed but that Florida team was missing Bennett, Ekblad and Montour. They should fair well against TB. Dallas will be a good test.

 

[34]

There seems to be a lot of fingers pointing at Coach Keefe. He is not even 1% of the issue with this club. The players like him, and his structure is good. If you look at the goaltending and the Defense of the team, you can’t expect a Honda Civic to perform like a Lamborghini Aventador SVJ. The goaltending between Samsonov and woll are amongst the very worst in the league. Washington did not let a young goalie like Samsonov walk for nothing, they knew he was a plug. He is not even a back up.

The forwards are also overrated. Why is it that every game, The opposing teams goalie has a career Vezina trophy winning night? Maybe it’s time to start looking at those forwards, and realizing that Toronto fans have overrated them. You never see a Samsonov stand on his head and steal a game against a good team, But night in night out opposing teams do this to the leafs. I don’t know, I think it’s time people start seeing this team for what it really is.

 

[mjd1001]

People seem to say this every year, and every year Toronto (and most of the rest of the league) steamrolls both of them. Maybe eventually it will be different, but until further notice both of those teams are still pretenders.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

People always seem to like to predict "this is the year" for young up-and-coming teams, teams coming out of rebuilds. The reality is not all rebuilds work (maybe 1/3 -1/2 rebuilds never work, just because you have a bunch of top 15 overall picks doesn't always mean you are good). Then even if your rebuild DOES work, many times it takes longer than you think.

I have watched a couple of Ottawa's games this year. I know its early, but they look for real. They started out awful last year and dealt with some big injuries. After they got over those, they started to play well and added this year and the young guys are a year older and playing great. Again, its early, but I think they are for real this year.

Buffalo? I agree they are a year behind Ottawa. The way they challenge for the division is 1.) they find a good goaltender. 2.) their stars continue to develop. Through 4 games, Levi in net is "OK" he may or may not be the guy, jury is still out. Their stars? Not so much. Their top 5 goal scorers last year totaled almost 180 goals (2.2 per game). This year so far? 3 total goals through 4 games. (0.75 per game).

We'll know more as the season goes on. Ottawa I think is going to be a legit pain for Toronto to deal with this year. Buffalo? ONLY if they get Thompson, Skinner and Tuch going but through their first 4 games those guys are no shows. Tage Thompson? He only has 15 goals less than Matthews over the last 2 seasons (including Matthews 60 goal season) and that is with Thompson missing some games also and playing hurt most of the last 2 months last year. Matthews with 6 already, Thompson just got his first.

As far as Detroit, I'm still not a believer.

 

[The Management]

I'm prepared to give these guys a longer leash this year, given the number of new bodies, but right now there's a serious lack of chemistry happening all over the ice, particularly on the lines with the new arrivals (rookie and veteran alike).

 

[notbias]

That’s what everyone did with Lou.

It’s too early to panic as this team does this all the time. Slow October and by December they’re crushing it. Let’s wait till December.

There is a difference between blaming Lou for Marleau/Zaitsev or having absolutely terrible drafting, and blaming Dubas for the signings of Bertuzzi/Domi/Klingberg/Reaves/etc...

If you don't like our prospect pool currently (people seem to), or some long-term signings, sure, but the issue has been the new guys so far, not the signings Dubas has had.

We can agree that it is too early to jump to conclusions though and blaming anyone at this point is just dumb.

I still think Domi/Bert turn it around at least, and same with Kampf.

Reaves/Klingberg just maybe this bad (they have a long track record of being bad), but even them, let's see.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Jarnkrok-Matthews-marner
Knies-Tavares-Domi
Bertuzzi-Holmberg-Nylander
Gregor-Kampf-Reaves

Would be interested to see McMann on the Nylander line if Bertuzzi can't go, but Cap.

I think Jarnkrok is a waste on that line. It should be either Knies or Bertuzzi.

Or if Keefe wants to get a little adventurous, pair up Matthews-Nylander and Tavares-Marner again.

Domi has been underwhelming. Bertuzzi as well, but he's less than 100%, so I want to see him be healthy before making judgement.

Knies just needs a jolt to get his confidence. Minten on the other hand looks completely out of place. Would not surprise me if he is sent down in short order to continue his development.

 

[Apex Predator]

There is a difference between blaming Lou for Marleau/Zaitsev or having absolutely terrible drafting, and blaming Dubas for the signings of Bertuzzi/Domi/Klingberg/Reaves/etc...

If you don't like our prospect pool currently (people seem to), or some long-term signings, sure, but the issue has been the new guys so far, not the signings Dubas has had.

We can agree that it is too early to jump to conclusions though and blaming anyone at this point is just dumb.

I still think Domi/Bert turn it around at least, and same with Kampf.

Reaves/Klingberg just maybe this bad (they have a long track record of being bad), but even them, let's see.

Klingberg needs to be sheltered in a third pairing role. It’s sucks he got 4 million but hopefully he can turn it around.

 

[DragoGrizzly]

Since Keefe didn’t seem to trust Minten last night (8:47 in icetime), he’s probably heading back to Kamloops soon. Think they’ll try Willie back at centre again? I kind of want to see it. Think it will help spread out the ice times more efficiently.

 

[Evilhomer]

Since Keefe didn’t seem to trust Minten last night (8:47 in icetime), he’s probably heading back to Kamloops soon. Think they’ll try Willie back at centre again? I kind of want to see it. Think it will help spread out the ice times more efficiently.

In the short-term, I am sure that is exactly what will happen. Maybe Kampf goes to the third line instead, but doing that probably doesn't help the bottom 6 all that much.

 

[SprDaVE]

Since Keefe didn’t seem to trust Minten last night (8:47 in icetime), he’s probably heading back to Kamloops soon. Think they’ll try Willie back at centre again? I kind of want to see it. Think it will help spread out the ice times more efficiently.

In the short-term, I am sure that is exactly what will happen. Maybe Kampf goes to the third line instead, but doing that probably doesn't help the bottom 6 all that much.

Holmberg will be up in no time.

 

[ULF_55]

I think Jarnkrok is a waste on that line. It should be either Knies or Bertuzzi.

Or if Keefe wants to get a little adventurous, pair up Matthews-Nylander and Tavares-Marner again.

Domi has been underwhelming. Bertuzzi as well, but he's less than 100%, so I want to see him be healthy before making judgement.

Knies just needs a jolt to get his confidence. Minten on the other hand looks completely out of place. Would not surprise me if he is sent down in short order to continue his development.

Do you think marner wants to play on any other line?

Yes, uh-huh

I hear what you're saying but yeah, it does seem he determines that.

 

[Fogelhund]

Domi and Bert had good playoffs. I find it hard to believe they fell off a cliff over the summer. Let's give it some time before we deem them the wrong pieces. My concerns are with Gio, McCabe, Brodie, Klingberg and Lily. Now those are closer to the wrong pieces as a d group IMO.

They "had good playoffs".
Domi put up points, as a negative player.. put him in a prime spot, he'll put up some points, be weak defensively, and not do much else for the game. That's just who he's been his whole career... so yes, he put up some points. He's not bringing physicality, he's never been that player, and that's what we need some of... we need some snot. He's barely a small booger.

Bertuzzi has a similar, though more productive profile. Will put up points, weaker defensively, and is often injured. Guess what.. injured again. Not the physicality and snot people wanted.

You can look on the first page of the praise Treliving thread... these were my comments on these two players in the summer.

D needs some work, but your comments about... "let's give it some time" applies just as well there. Overall, the D group actually played an ok game last night... much better than previously. McCabe and Liljegren played very well together. Even Gio and Klingberg were "acceptable". Rielly and Brodie didn't have their best game, but so far this year they've done very well. The group is still too soft... which was something I stated in the offseason as well.

Yes, we need some patience, but so far the new players, are playing just like they always have elsewhere.

 

[mjd1001]

The worst players so far are the ones that were signed by the new GM...

But I'd say the way you fix it is by giving them some time to gel and stop overreacting.

We are 4 games into the season, and yes the team looks bad, but I wouldn't be making drastic changes.

We know Kampf is better than he has shown.

I think Reaves is what he is, so just deal with it.

Bertuzzi and Domi have both been a lot better in the past so hopefully, they find their stride.

Klingberg has been bad recently so maybe this is what we get, but he's also had some really good seasons so hopefully he can find those.

McCabe had a good game last night, so hopefully that is the way he starts playing.

Samsanov played well last year and Woll was even better, I think they are closer to those kinds of goalies than what we are seeing.

It is just too early to want drastic changes I think.

It is early, so you have to let this play out at least 10 games before its judged who should go and what changes should be made.

One thing I have noticed is this team gets in trouble more than most teams when the D-men can't control the puck behind the net, they lose battles for loose pucks, they get the puck deep in their own end and just dribble it up the boards where an opponent is usually waiting for it..etc.

I've had some days off from work and watched a couple Ottawa games. I have watched all of Buffalo's games. I watched Boson-Chicago in addition to the Leaf games. No one else I have seen has a bigger problem with their D-men controlling and moving the puck out of their own end than the Leafs.

This D-unit just isn't that good in their own end of controlling the puck. I'm not sure how that changes.

Ultimately, this team wins they your D-unit plays that way (that is who they are), cost you 1-2 goals per game and your offense scores more. That is is. This is the team and that is how they win. Your goaltending might be decent but it isn't good enough to cover up for a below-average D-unit. (you aren't going to get a performance like 'peak' Cujo...and the 1999 version of Dominik Hasek is not walking through that door))

When your offense is a no-show (or a 'little show') you likely are going to have a tough time losing. This team just doesn't have it in them to win on a regular basis by 'shutting down' the opposing team.

Outscore the other team. Hold your breath or look away whenever there is a loose puck in your own end behind the net or in the corners. That is how they are going to win.