Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

[PhoenyX]

Maybe it's just me, but I see JvR as a complimentary piece. He's good for 25 goals and 55 points and should be a 2nd liner on a contending team not a first liner. If you're a contender and your best winger is only putting up 25 goals/55 points then you're in trouble.

The one concern I with JvR is that he doesn't bring much to the table outside of scoring. He's not very good defensively, doesn't kill penalties, and should be a lot more physical for a guy his size. Not sure if he would be a good fit in the West.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Maybe it's just me, but I see JvR as a complimentary piece. He's good for 25 goals and 55 points and should be a 2nd liner on a contending team not a first liner. If you're a contender and your best winger is only putting up 25 goals/55 points then you're in trouble.

The one concern I with JvR is that he doesn't bring much to the table outside of scoring. He's not very good defensively, doesn't kill penalties, and should be a lot more physical for a guy his size. Not sure if he would be a good fit in the West.

To be fair he wouldn't be our best winger. Id take Perry over him any day of the week, and as a whole package silfverberg is > imo.

 

[Kelly]

Then why does he still only have 1 season over 30 goals?

Good lord.

12/13 = 14 goals in 48 games (lockout) pro rated = 31 goals
13/14 = 30 goals in 80 games
14/15 = 27 goals in 82 games
15/16 = 14 goals in 40 games (injured) pro rated = 29 goals

He's been on pace to score between 27-31 goals the last four season, it's isn't that much of a reach calling JVR a 30 goal scorer.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Good lord.

12/13 = 14 goals in 48 games (lockout) pro rated = 31 goals
13/14 = 30 goals in 80 games
14/15 = 27 goals in 82 games
15/16 = 14 goals in 40 games (injured) pro rated = 29 goals

He's been on pace to score between 27-31 goals the last four season, it's isn't that much of a reach calling JVR a 30 goal scorer.

Pro rated isn't a guarantee, its an assumption... he barly past 30 1 time and hes all of sudden a bonafid 30 goal scorer.

 

[Kelly]

Pro rated isn't a guarantee, its an assumption... he barly past 30 1 time and hes all of sudden a bonafid 30 goal scorer.

He's been on pace for the past four seasons, I think it's pretty safe to assume. But to each their own.

P.S I made a mistake he scored 18 goals in 12/13, not 14.

 

[aufheben]

He's been on pace for the past four seasons, I think it's pretty safe to assume. But to each their own.

P.S I made a mistake he scored 18 goals in 12/13, not 14.

He'a very consistent forward, it does not get much safer. There's no guarantee for any player so it's kind of a meaningless sentiment anyway.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I have no problems calling JVR a consistent 25 goal scorer which is certainly valuable. More valuable than a player like Fowler is where I start to have disagreements with people. lol

If the Hall-Larsson deal is any indicator, chances are it's not going to favor JVR especially coming off an injury shortened campaign.

 

[Macallan18]

He's still predominantly on the right side whether that's out of need or not and it's been that way for a while. The point is that no matter how you slice it, Rielly can and likely will go on that side. If the Leafs end up going with what they have, Rielly still has to go on the right side because they have no options at the top of the blue line to fill that spot.



One, Fowler is not my guy. I hope he is dealt from Anaheim because I know he's a good player and it would make it easier for my team against the Ducks.

Two, Polak doesn't fill a need...at all. Physicality is a luxury in the NHL. Puck-movement from the blue line is critical for success and teams with depth of defensemen that can move the puck tend to perform the best. If Polak is in your top four, which at this point he likely is, your team is in trouble.

If both Zaitsev and Carrick are RHD's, it really has no impact on the viability of trading for Fowler who plays the left side. Now setting aside that that argument isn't much to begin with, you can't bank on either of those two making it and performing where they need to for the team to succeed. The biggest reason why you would take Fowler over either of those two is that Fowler is proven and the others are not and considering Fowler is in the same age range, that's a pretty big deal for a team lacking quality blue liners.

Marincin is a decent option on the 3rd pairing if his puck-moving abilities improve but beyond that, he's a dime a dozen player. There really isn't anything special about him but he's useful in a depth position as long as the puck skills get better.

As for not needing Gardiner and Fowler, I would say that's incorrect. There's nothing about either of the two that makes the other redundant. Puck-movement capability is critical from the blue line and the Leafs have nobody proven beyond Rielly and Gardiner and since Rielly can effectively play the right side and likely will continue to play the right side, that opens up their options to grab a d-man on either side to fill out their lineup.

Lastly, it's funny that you want to marginalize a player and a discussion simply because of a difference in opinion and that means you're marginalizing a player that played the most minutes on the team that won the Pacific. It's really pathetic to go that route.



I would...easily. The impact left wingers have on winning isn't that great unless you're a legitimately elite player which JVR is not. The impact that blue liners have is certainly larger and in Fowler's case, he would at worst be 2nd pairing in Toronto and considering what's there for them at this point, it would be a significant swap for them. Fowler would help the Leafs win more than JVR would. That's the bottom line. You need a solid blue line a lot more than you need a winger like JVR who is a solid producer but not much beyond that.

No, no, no, no. We have two LHD (Reilly and Gardiner) that are significantly better than Fowler. We have a third who is FAR better defensively (Marincin).
We have a new variable on the right side being Zaitsev, and a great prospect in Carrick.
We need another solid RHD, like Demers, and Reilly should play on the left side where BOTH his defence and offence are better.
Handedness on defence matters.
JVR for a good RHD???? Maybe.
Not for a LHD.

 

[DisneyDucky]

No, no, no, no. We have two LHD (Reilly and Gardiner) that are significantly better than Fowler. We have a third who is FAR better defensively (Marincin).
We have a new variable on the right side being Zaitsev, and a great prospect in Carrick.
We need another solid RHD, like Demers, and Reilly should play on the left side where BOTH his defence and offence are better.
Handedness on defence matters.
JVR for a good RHD???? Maybe.
Not for a LHD.

How did you finish last with 2-3defenders better than fowler? The guy who takes the toughest minutes on the best defensive team.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I have no problems calling JVR a consistent 25 goal scorer which is certainly valuable. More valuable than a player like Fowler is where I start to have disagreements with people. lol

If the Hall-Larsson deal is any indicator, chances are it's not going to favor JVR especially coming off an injury shortened campaign.

There is a big difference though, Larsson is a RHD which the Oilers sorely needed. Fowler is a lefty which is not a need for the leafs as they already have their top 4 LHDs locked up.
Also the fact that Fowler appears to be being shopped doesn't help his trade value whilst JVR is the only bonafide top 6 winger the leafs have (i.e. not for sale expect to fill a major need, RHD)

 

[Toronto makebeleifs]

No, no, no, no. We have two LHD (Reilly and Gardiner) that are significantly better than Fowler. We have a third who is FAR better defensively (Marincin).
We have a new variable on the right side being Zaitsev, and a great prospect in Carrick.
We need another solid RHD, like Demers, and Reilly should play on the left side where BOTH his defence and offence are better.
Handedness on defence matters.
JVR for a good RHD???? Maybe.
Not for a LHD.

You're marginalizing fowler's talent. He is a very good defenceman. That said, I do tend to agree that jvr for fowler doesn't really fill a need for the leafs. Toronto last year sorely lacked offensive talent, this year we're going to need those extra 20+ goals jvr will bring.

 

[Sojourn]

One skater is never the difference between a great team and a poor team.

It isn't just one skater. You need to remember that. It's Fowler and Bieksa. Playing in key situations.

Here we have a good coach in Boudreau. This is pretty universally acknowledged. His faults aside, almost everyone can agree he is a good coach. That good coach has consistently had lots of success in the regular season, and that same coach used Bieksa and Fowler in a top pairing role. On top of that, not only did he use them in that role, but he continued to be successful. The team continued to be successful.

Which brings me to my next point: No one has yet explained how a team can have a top pairing of scrubs, and still manage to be one of the better teams in the NHL. From what I've seen, that point has been ignored again, and again. It's easy to say "well, one player can't change that" but that really isn't the whole story, is it? Can anyone show me a successful team that relied on a top pairing that was so, seemingly, substandard? And then, if you can find that team, show me that their success wasn't due, primarily, because they were just that good elsewhere. A team scoring at the highest rate in the NHL might be able to get away with it. A team leaning almost entirely on goaltending might be able to manage that. Maybe. Anaheim doesn't fall into either category. A team can get away with having one questionable defenseman on a pairing, in a prominent role. That was Bieksa. A team can't get away with having their entire top pairing questionable. You can't give two poor defensemen the biggest responsibilities, and still expect a team to be successful.

Here's where all these individual metrics fall short: The results. Fowler has consistently played with 3rd pairing quality defensemen, and in key roles, and his team has consistently found success. Boudreau might not be infallible, but it stretches belief that he'd continue to play such a questionable D pairing so much if they were dragging the team down. The evidence, that he didn't do that, suggests that he was happy with the results, and those results nvolved the Ducks winning games.

 

[TopShelfWaterBottle]

No, no, no, no. We have two LHD (Reilly and Gardiner) that are significantly better than Fowler. We have a third who is FAR better defensively (Marincin).
We have a new variable on the right side being Zaitsev, and a great prospect in Carrick.
We need another solid RHD, like Demers, and Reilly should play on the left side where BOTH his defence and offence are better.
Handedness on defence matters.
JVR for a good RHD???? Maybe.
Not for a LHD.

Gardiner and Marincin would get eaten alive playing against the qoc fowler faces

 

[Ziggdiezan]

How did you finish last with 2-3defenders better than fowler? The guy who takes the toughest minutes on the best defensive team.

The rest of the team were AHL players or bottom 6 rentals?
I would take MR over Fowler obviously and probably Gardiner due to his cheap contract and the fact Fowler is going to get a big raise after next year. The rest are a step below Fowler for sure

 

[lindholmie]

Fowler is a 40 point 24 year old defensemen signed for 4 mill. hes worth more than jvr

 

[Sojourn]

Fowler is a 40 point 24 year old defensemen signed for 4 mill. hes worth more than jvr

Eh. He's hit 40 points once, and even though his pace has been pretty close to that at times, I do feel he needs to hit that number more to really be called that. At least if we're labeling. Maybe that's just being pedantic.

At the same time, part of that may simply come down to the role he plays. Unless it's late in a game the team is losing, or the Ducks are on the PP, his opportunities in the offensive zone are pretty limited. Lindholm and, especially, Vatanen get more opportunities there. He's the guy that always seems to be getting off the ice once the puck crosses the offensive blue line. Another reason why I feel the shot metrics aren't entirely accurate in his case, or are misleading. He is often helping put the team into a situation where they can get some offense going, but he isn't staying there to "benefit" from it a lot of the time.

For whatever that is worth. There's opportunity for him to produce more, but who knows what the results would be?

 

[lindholmie]

Eh. He's hit 40 points once, and even though his pace has been pretty close to that at times, I do feel he needs to hit that number more to really be called that.

At the same time, part of that may simply come down to the role he plays. Unless it's late in a game the team is losing, or the Ducks are on the PP, his opportunities in the offensive zone are pretty limited. Lindholm and, especially, Vatanen get more opportunities there. He's the guy that always seems to be getting off the ice once the puck crosses the offensive blue line.

For whatever that is worth. There's opportunity for him to produce more, but who knows what the results would be?

I know. Buts its the same thing when leafs fans call JVR a 30 goal scorer lol so why not call fowler a 40 point defender?

 

[4thline]

Pro rated isn't a guarantee, its an assumption... he barly past 30 1 time and hes all of sudden a bonafid 30 goal scorer.

Lol no past performance is a guarantee of the future, it's all assumptions.

It is a very solid assumption based on the last 4 years that JVR is going to give you 27-31 goals per 80 games, and is going to continue being a topline winger and top 30 goal scorer for a couple years. That defines his value, not whether or not he meets your standard of a "bonafide 30 goal scorer" it's a near meaningless threshhold

 

[Sojourn]

I know. Buts its the same thing when leafs fans call JVR a 30 goal scorer lol so why not call fowler a 40 point defender?

Point.

But I don't call JVR that. He's done it once, and I don't buy the "on pace" argument. JVR isn't a player with like four 30-goal seasons under his belt. I think, in that case, that player would have earned the benefit of the doubt. I don't see that for JVR.

 

[Kelly]

He'a very consistent forward, it does not get much safer. There's no guarantee for any player so it's kind of a meaningless sentiment anyway.

Exactly, I don't see the harm in rounding up when he's on pace between 27-31 goals every year.

I know. Buts its the same thing when leafs fans call JVR a 30 goal scorer lol so why not call fowler a 40 point defender?

Yeah the exact same thing! (JVR has been on pace between 27-31 goals the past four seasons)

13/14 = 36 in 70 GP - prorated = 42 pts
14/15 = 34 in 80 GP - prorated = 35 pts
15/16 = 28 in 69 GP - protated = 33 pts

Probably closer to call him a 35 point defenseman, but call him what you want - I'm not gonna cry bloody mary like a lot of ducks fans are doing over a couple goals/points.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Maybe it's just me, but I see JvR as a complimentary piece. He's good for 25 goals and 55 points and should be a 2nd liner on a contending team not a first liner. If you're a contender and your best winger is only putting up 25 goals/55 points then you're in trouble.

The one concern I with JvR is that he doesn't bring much to the table outside of scoring. He's not very good defensively, doesn't kill penalties, and should be a lot more physical for a guy his size. Not sure if he would be a good fit in the West.

JVR is a top 10 goals per game LW over the past 3 years and 16th in points per game over the same period. He is 1st line LW 100%. He is top 25 goals per game for all skaters in the past 3 years.
I don't get how people don't think he is a 1st liner player.

 

[hullsy47]

JVR is a top 10 goals per game LW over the past 3 years and 16th in points per game over the same period. He is 1st line LW 100%. He is top 25 goals per game for all skaters in the past 3 years.
I don't get how people don't think he is a 1st liner player.

Elklunds e4 is bill watters lmao

 

[Pinkfloyd]

No, no, no, no. We have two LHD (Reilly and Gardiner) that are significantly better than Fowler. We have a third who is FAR better defensively (Marincin).
We have a new variable on the right side being Zaitsev, and a great prospect in Carrick.
We need another solid RHD, like Demers, and Reilly should play on the left side where BOTH his defence and offence are better.
Handedness on defence matters.
JVR for a good RHD???? Maybe.
Not for a LHD.

Sure you can say that the Leafs have two left-handed d-men that are better than Fowler for argument's sake. It doesn't mean that Rielly is going to play the left side. He's going to play the right side even if the Leafs acquired Shattenkirk as a righty. Why? Because there are no other options for them. And no, Marincin is not better defensively than Fowler.

Handedness on defense doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you think it does. And if you want to bank on two unproven d-men stepping in and even being a 2nd pairing level quality, that's your call but that's not likely to work AND if you're talking about moving Rielly to the left, you have a big gaping hole at the top of your blue line. Chances are that simply isn't going to happen when push comes to shove and lineups are made. Rielly will move to the right.

There is a big difference though, Larsson is a RHD which the Oilers sorely needed. Fowler is a lefty which is not a need for the leafs as they already have their top 4 LHDs locked up.
Also the fact that Fowler appears to be being shopped doesn't help his trade value whilst JVR is the only bonafide top 6 winger the leafs have (i.e. not for sale expect to fill a major need, RHD)

The other big difference is that JVR is not Taylor Hall either. And reality is that the Leafs need quality d-men regardless of handedness or which side they play on. With Rielly likely going to the right side again out of pure necessity, you either accept that and act accordingly or make moves to address the right side. The market would suggest that your best option is to get the lefty and move Rielly to the right.

And the whole being shopped thing doesn't actually impact Fowler's trade value. Ducks don't have to trade Fowler. They have other trade options if they want to pursue it and Toronto certainly isn't the only trade suitor for Fowler.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Sure you can say that the Leafs have two left-handed d-men that are better than Fowler for argument's sake. It doesn't mean that Rielly is going to play the left side. He's going to play the right side even if the Leafs acquired Shattenkirk as a righty. Why? Because there are no other options for them. And no, Marincin is not better defensively than Fowler.

Handedness on defense doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you think it does. And if you want to bank on two unproven d-men stepping in and even being a 2nd pairing level quality, that's your call but that's not likely to work AND if you're talking about moving Rielly to the left, you have a big gaping hole at the top of your blue line. Chances are that simply isn't going to happen when push comes to shove and lineups are made. Rielly will move to the right.



The other big difference is that JVR is not Taylor Hall either.

That is true, as a result the comparison between a JVR-FOWLER trade and the Hall-Larsson trade doesn't really make sense due to massively different organizational needs and the fact that 1 bad trade doesn't set precedence for the rest.

Also the leafs have fewer forwards that need protection in the upcoming draft while adding Fowler means the leafs will most likely loose 1 of their young RHD which they can't afford to do.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Maybe it's just me, but I see JvR as a complimentary piece. He's good for 25 goals and 55 points and should be a 2nd liner on a contending team not a first liner. If you're a contender and your best winger is only putting up 25 goals/55 points then you're in trouble.

The one concern I with JvR is that he doesn't bring much to the table outside of scoring. He's not very good defensively, doesn't kill penalties, and should be a lot more physical for a guy his size. Not sure if he would be a good fit in the West.

I like your assessment of JVR. I am a fan of his and the team.

I only dislike your evaluation of East vs. West. The East is the fastest, most skilled, smartest, and toughest conference. Please stop with this. The very best from the West got their ***** handed to them in the cup finals. Tampa, Wash., NYI, etc. could have all beaten those teal lumbersexuals too.