Friedman: Leafs do not see Marner making more than Kane

[Legion34]

Did they use those comparables in the Matthews negotiations?

The best goal scoring c in the league since the day he came?

Who would those be?

You realize that the same agency represents both Matthews and mcdavid right?

 

[McFlyingV]

The best goal scoring c in the league since the day he came?

Who would those be?

You realize that the same agency represents both Matthews and mcdavid right?

If goal scoring was the only thing that mattered then players wouldn't get paid for playmaking as well.

Not sure what your last point means. Justify Matthews making 11.6 compared to McDavid making 12.5 when McDavid's bought 8 years and Matthews' only bought 5.

 

[Snowpants]

Do you thing the 42nd leading scorer should be #2 paid player in the league?

Dubas did.

lol burn.

When he scores at the same rate as ovechkin. And the cap went up...

Probably?

Sure bud Matthews is definitely scoring at the same rate as Ovechkin. What with all 0 Richard trophies to his name. Leafs fans strike again.

 

[Legion34]

lol burn.



Sure bud Matthews is definitely scoring at the same rate as Ovechkin. What with all 0 Richard trophies to his name. Leafs fans strike again.

Ummmm actually he is? You know what rate means right?

 

[Bank Shot]

By using actual stats and comparables in the negotiation as opposed to the gut feeling of morons?

Show me the list of comparables that scored 94+ points in their contract year.

It's a pretty short list.

Why are you resorting to name calling?

Probably because you know everyone that is saying Marner is going to get paid are correct.

 

[Legion34]

If goal scoring was the only thing that mattered then players wouldn't get paid for playmaking as well.

Not sure what your last point means. Justify Matthews making 11.6 compared to McDavid making 12.5 when McDavid's bought 8 years and Matthews' only bought 5.

Because they negotiated deals they thought were fair for their talent/ production

 

[McFlyingV]

Because they negotiated deals they thought were fair for their players?

Ok so either McDavid is underpaid or Matthews is overpaid. Either way, in terms of stats Marner has a great comparable on his own team who is born in the same year as him. Maybe he doesn't get as much as Matthews, but his agent will have done a horrible job if he doesn't get close to the same.

 

[Marcobruin]

If AM is a total franchise generational player, then there must be one who enters the NHL every year. He is a star player, but lets not act like he's the 2nd best player in the league as he is being paid. He's not even a top 10 player in the NHL right now. Marner has every right to ask for money in the 10-11M range given that the GM he is negotiating with just gave AM 11.6x5. I'm assuming the Leafs would like to get Marner for 8 years which on its own drives up the AAV if you're paying for extra years. Dubas made a difficult situation for himself, and this is a rare situation where teams might actually consider an offer sheet given the compensation for a 10.5M contract.

If he isn't signed ..Marner will definitely get an offer sheet.
It does seem that more "generational " players are coming in to the NHL..may have to change the term .. generational
Next ones that carry generational label. Matthew Savoie , Conor Bedard and close
To being one ... Lafreniere

 

[Legion34]

Ok so either McDavid is underpaid or Matthews is overpaid. Either way, in terms of stats Marner has a great comparable on his own team who is born in the same year as him. Maybe he doesn't get as much as Matthews, but his agent will have done a horrible job if he doesn't get close to the same.

He doesn’t though. Matthews plays C and scores goals at the same rate as ovechkin. Playing 3-4imin less a game. If what 50 more goals in 30 less games is comparable

You must think Matthews abs mcdavid are comparable.

But guess what. They aren’t comparables. There are many wingers who have scored at similar rates whonhabe played with top line players (rantanen/tkachuk)

Those are his comparables

 

[A4T1L6]

Matthews makes 11.6M but he’s never got 75 points LOL

LOL these chirps went from “never hit 70 points” to “ he can’t get 75 LOL” that’s hilarious

 

[McFlyingV]

He doesn’t though. Matthews plays C and scores goals at the same rate as ovechkin. Playing 3-4imin less a game. If what 50 more goals in 30 less games is comparable

You must think Matthews abs mcdavid are comparable.

But guess what. They aren’t comparables. There are many wingers who have scored at similar rates whonhabe played with top line players (rantanen/tkachuk)

Those are his comparables

Matthews and McDavid aren't even close to comparables is the point yet McDavid makes only 7.5% more while being bought for 3 extra years. It was a flat out overpay.

You keep referencing goals and goals only. You can say Matthews is one of the best goal scorers in the league which is true when he's healthy. You can also say that Matthews assist totals are pedestrian and no where near elite. You can say Marner's goal scoring is ok but not great. You can also say Marner's playmaking is one of the best in the game.

Rantanen is a good comparable, but Tkachuk isn't. Marner has outscored him handily in the past 3 seasons. Problem is Rantanen doesn't have a new contract yet so it is impossible compare to him. Right now Marner is saying he just outproduced Matthews in terms of points and therefore he wants to get paid similarly to him. How do you tell him he's wrong?

 

[Space umpire]

The point is that they were equal stars in years despite Kane being the number one overall pick because toews is a big C.

Matthews is the big C AND scores more.
Matthews is clearly the better player. Who deserves more.

This is a leaf contract thread. Not a memory lane toews and Kane thread.

Production determines contracts. People want the leafs to fail so they try to suggest Marner is better and should make more.

So you would pay Yakupov just because he was the #1 pick? It better not be a memory lane thread for you because depending on who you were reading Kane, Turris or JVR were to be the #1 pick and in the Toews draft any of the 1st 5 were picked in various order depending on which hockey guy was doing the mock draft.
So you support the Leafs moving Marner for Nugent-Hopkins? He is a #1 pick so to you he has more value.

 

[Kotkaniemi15]

LOL these chirps went from “never hit 70 points” to “ he can’t get 75 LOL” that’s hilarious

1st overall pick but he can’t even stay healthy and get a lot of points. Bust.

 

[Snowpants]

Ummmm actually he is? You know what rate means right?

It means... nothing... not when you are talking things people care about. If he cannot stay healthy to prove he is able to do it over many full seasons it is a pointless stat.

 

[McFlyingV]

The thing is Marner has scored over 90 points while Matthews has never even had a season on pace for 90 points. The two are not far off from one another and thus Marner has a good argument in wanting to be paid similarly, even if it is slightly less.

 

[Legion34]

So you would pay Yakupov just because he was the #1 pick? It better not be a memory lane thread for you because depending on who you were reading Kane, Turris or JVR were to be the #1 pick and in the Toews draft any of the 1st 5 were picked in various order depending on which hockey guy was doing the mock draft.
So you support the Leafs moving Marner for Nugent-Hopkins? He is a #1 pick so to you he has more value.

Better pedigree. Better production. Better performance.

It’s not just one thing. Matthews has all of them over Marner

 

[Space umpire]

Overall totals. With Tavares. And 8 empty net points. Yes.

Goals. No.
Playoffs. No.

If Marner gets the Matthews money are you going to claim he is overpaid.

Like all the people who said Matthews was going to sign for 15 mill in Arizona?

Asking for a friend

You're counting empty net points against him? He's on the ice at the end of the game with a one goal lead, shorthanded (empty net) to preserve the lead and get a win. Where is Matthews at the end of the game with a 1 goal lead while the opposition has an extra skater on? ... And if Marner gets Matthews money, YES, yes, they will both be overpaid.
Matthews is the bigger name right now. Had your glorious GM signed him for 10.1 (the 4 1st limit last year) he would have laid the groundwork for similar with Marner. Now? Who knows but I have to think 10.5 (projected 4 1st limit this year) until he is UFA is the starting point now. With somewhere between 200k and 500k per year for each UFA year you eat. Which (happy for you) is less than Matthews.

 

[Legion34]

Matthews and McDavid aren't even close to comparables is the point yet McDavid makes only 7.5% more while being bought for 3 extra years. It was a flat out overpay.

You keep referencing goals and goals only. You can say Matthews is one of the best goal scorers in the league which is true when he's healthy. You can also say that Matthews assist totals are pedestrian and no where near elite. You can say Marner's goal scoring is ok but not great. You can also say Marner's playmaking is one of the best in the game.

Rantanen is a good comparable, but Tkachuk isn't. Marner has outscored him handily in the past 3 seasons. Problem is Rantanen doesn't have a new contract yet so it is impossible compare to him. Right now Marner is saying he just outproduced Matthews in terms of points and therefore he wants to get paid similarly to him. How do you tell him he's wrong?

Matthews got 11.6 instead of 12.5 because he is a step below mcdavid. Matthews took 5
Years because mcdavid regrets signing for 8 years to a disaster franchise. They learned from Conor’s mistake.

No way he commits to 8 in that gong show if he could do it all again

Marner has comparables He should get more than Tkachuk. Similar to rantanen.

Matthews is a step up from him. Like mcdavid is a step up from Matthews

Marner is great. Should get a lot. Not Matthews money

 

[Snowpants]

Better pedigree. Better production. Better performance.

73 > 94. You read it here folks!!!

 

[McFlyingV]

Matthews got 11.6 instead of 12.5 because he is a step below mcdavid. Matthews took 5
Years because mcdavid regrets signing for 8 years to a disaster franchise. They learned from Conor’s mistake.

No way he commits to 8 in that gong show if he could do it all again

Marner has comparables He should get more than Tkachuk. Similar to rantanen.

Matthews is a step up from him. Like mcdavid is a step up from Matthews

Marner is great. Should get a lot. Not Matthews money

Matthews is more than a 7.5% step below McDavid though, and when you factor in that it was signed a year later and with fewer years it means he was paid even closer to McDavid than 7.5%.

In the case of the bolded then Marner should get paid 7.5% less than Matthews which is just under 11M AAV over 5 years. In reality the gap between Marner and Matthews is smaller than the gap between Matthews and McDavid. Hence why Marner will have a good case in negotiations that he should be paid similar to Matthews.

 

[Legion34]

You're counting empty net points against him? He's on the ice at the end of the game with a one goal lead, shorthanded (empty net) to preserve the lead and get a win. Where is Matthews at the end of the game with a 1 goal lead while the opposition has an extra skater on? ... And if Marner gets Matthews money, YES, yes, they will both be overpaid.
Matthews is the bigger name right now. Had your glorious GM signed him for 10.1 (the 4 1st limit last year) he would have laid the groundwork for similar with Marner. Now? Who knows but I have to think 10.5 (projected 4 1st limit this year) until he is UFA is the starting point now. With somewhere between 200k and 500k per year for each UFA year you eat. Which (happy for you) is less than Matthews.

Many stats discount empty nets. Because they aren’t repeatable. Both lines are out against empty nets. Because most goalies get pulled with like 90-120 left now. The difference is that C play down low.

Wingers play up top. You never wonder why wingers are already on the break away.

Babcock loves centers. It’s his favourite thing to talk about. If Marner was as
Good as Matthews he would be a C. Carrying rookies. That’s just how it is.

Marner thinks he’s a C. Paul Marner goes
On the radio saying he is a C. If babcock agreed. He would be

If he was worth Matthews money. It would be done already

 

[Legion34]

Matthews is more than a 7.5% step below McDavid though, and when you factor in that it was signed a year later and with fewer years it means he was paid even closer to McDavid than 7.5%.

In the case of the bolded then Marner should get paid 7.5% less than Matthews which is just under 11M AAV over 5 years. In reality the gap between Marner and Matthews is smaller than the gap between Matthews and McDavid. Hence why Marner will have a good case in negotiations that he should be paid similar to Matthews.

If that was true. Wouldn’t the same agency who represented both see it that way?

 

[FissionFire]

Better pedigree. Better production. Better performance.

It’s not just one thing. Matthews has all of them over Marner

I strongly disagree here. The only thing Matthews has over Marner is pre-draft pedigree. At the NHL level Marner has been equally or more productive and an equal of better performer. He’s also been able to stay healthy and on the ice. At the NHL level it’s quite reasonable to argue that Marner is the better overall player right now. Personally, I feel the Leafs would suffer more on the ice from losing Marner than Matthews.

I’m not sure why the Leafs brass would think he’d come in significantly less than Matthews. I always viewed Matthews and Marner as the new Kane and Toews where they would have similar or identical contracts. I’d be surprised if Marner went for less than 11.5M unless he’s signing a deal to just take him to his UFA year.

 

[Legion34]

I strongly disagree here. The only thing Matthews has over Marner is pre-draft pedigree. At the NHL level Marner has been equally or more productive and an equal of better performer. He’s also been able to stay healthy and on the ice. At the NHL level it’s quite reasonable to argue that Marner is the better overall player right now. Personally, I feel the Leafs would suffer more on the ice from losing Marner than Matthews.

I’m not sure why the Leafs brass would think he’d come in significantly less than Matthews. I always viewed Matthews and Marner as the new Kane and Toews where they would have similar or identical contracts. I’d be surprised if Marner went for less than 11.5M unless he’s signing a deal to just take him to his UFA year.

Hockey reference check it out.

Matthews scores at a higher rate in a more
Demanding position with rookies.

Marner has had pp1 time with first rounders, olympians and hall of famers.

And STILL produces less.

Marner has stayed healthier. Yes.

 

[Space umpire]

Nah, Marner signs a fair deal or we get 4 1sts. Those are the only two options. Giving Marner more than market value to "keep him happy" is not one of those options.

It is projected that 10.5 or 10.6 mill a year will only bring 2 1st +1+1. I would expect the Leafs match. HOWEVER I would bet cash the OS will only be until UFA. If the Leafs want extra years they need to know it will cost more and (obviously) would have to happen before he signed the OS.
I just don't see it as the end of the world. Sure, you need to move a guy or 2 but you bring in a few kids and then after 1 year Marleau is gone and moves can be made. Might actually help, sure they won't be a major cup contender next year but it's a young roster. Gives guys a year and gives young D another year.
Many Leaf fans are pretending this is no big deal ... It is
Many Non Leaf fans are pretending it's a death sentence ... It's not