Friedman: Leafs do not see Marner making more than Kane

[Snowpants]

I tend to stop when I read something stupid, but I did after posting and you failed to provide what I asked. All you did was quote a handful of people expressing disbelief that Marner is worth more than Kucherov, and perhaps one believing he will receive the same contract or a little less.

Believing he isnt worth more than Kucherov isnt believing he will make less.

So all I did was post a bunch of "people" (Leafs fans) who think he will make the same or less as Kucherov ($9.5 mill)... yet that somehow in no way proves Leafs fans think he will make less than $10M.

Those goal posts moved so much they are on the moon now. GG.

 

[Ishad]

Leafs don’t see nylander making more than pastrnak, refuse to get vision checked.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Yeah so that is a whole hell of a lot closer to 9 than 10. How will you move the goal posts now???



I provided evidence of reasonable people saying otherwise. You now have to prove your stance. Go head I will wait lol.



Dubas has MORE than "They are teammates, Marner has out scored Matthews the last two years"? Is your "more" perhaps all this EV scoring BS that keeps going around lol?



Dubas can do all the Powerpoint presentations he wants about Point and centers and goals... once again Marner's agent just has to point at Matthews contract. You are unable to apply THAT logic and it is truly painful to read.

Also I have to laugh here and point your hypocrisy. You went on about how no Leaf fans thinks Marner should get under 9... then use Point and 8.5 as an example and claim Marner should not ask for more than that. A true fail right there.



Oh my goodness the C thing again. Okay I will wait for Dubas to base his argument all around that. I wish him well.



LOL "We are not discussing what Dubas and Marner's agent are gonna want". YES WE ARE. That is literally the discussion. Get off your Xbox or whatever and pay attention to real negotations. No cares about these mental gymnatics you and Leafs are trying to do to convince yourselves he is worth 9 or less. Marner > Matthews in production and even ES scoring which is what Leaf fans care most about these days. That's it that's all you lose.

You strawman everything. You legit just quoted a bunch of people saying 9-9.5 million to prove that the majority of leafs fans are saying he should get under 9? Incredible.

You provided evidence of a couple of people saying they could get 10M. That evidence doesn't come close to debunking what i said which is that "the majority of people aren't saying aho, rant and point are all getting over 10m". I legit said some people may say that, but the majority are not, meanwhile the majority of people in this thread (non-leafs fans) are saying he should get 10.5M+. Those same people are what im talking about.

Just because you disagree that centres and goalscorers get paid more doesn't mean its not true. Look at the contracts around the league. Marner is an elite winger. The only winger making more than 9.5 in the league is Kane, on his third contract. On Kane's 2nd contract he made 11.09 pct of the cap on a five year term. Ive already said thats a perfectly reasonable contract for Marner. There isn't a winger that makes the 10.5-11M that has a comparable situation to Marner. If Rantanen signs for 11M, thats a strong comparable to Marner assuming they get the same term. I don't think hes going to sign for that much.

Ive consistently said 9.5 is completely reasonable. I'm not sure why you're attaching me to the "should make less than 9" crowd, which is minimal in comparison to the rest of the population, particularly when I've never said that once.

I think its comical that you've attached yourself to the Matthews comparable as the only one valid though. Aho is going to make 11.634 then too right? He outscored Matthews by raw points this year, and goal scoring totals don't matter so in your eyes, Aho gets that? Thats why the even strength numbers and points/60 matter.

You can laugh about Cs making more than Ws as much as you want, and so can Marner's agent. That is historically how it goes.

 

[McFlyingV]

Marner doesn't deserve to make more than Patrick Kane .. imo
Not even disputable. Marner has ways to go before he can be in Kane category.

Neither does Auston Matthews, but here we are. Leafs dug their own hole.

 

[Snowpants]

You strawman everything. You legit just quoted a bunch of people saying 9-9.5 million to prove that the majority of leafs fans are saying he should get under 9? Incredible.

You provided evidence of a couple of people saying they could get 10M. That evidence doesn't come close to debunking what i said which is that "the majority of people aren't saying aho, rant and point are all getting over 10m". I legit said some people may say that, but the majority are not, meanwhile the majority of people in this thread (non-leafs fans) are saying he should get 10.5M+. Those same people are what im talking about.

Just because you disagree that centres and goalscorers get paid more doesn't mean its not true. Look at the contracts around the league. Marner is an elite winger. The only winger making more than 9.5 in the league is Kane, on his third contract. On Kane's 2nd contract he made 11.09 pct of the cap on a five year term. Ive already said thats a perfectly reasonable contract for Marner. There isn't a winger that makes the 10.5-11M that has a comparable situation to Marner. If Rantanen signs for 11M, thats a strong comparable to Marner assuming they get the same term. I don't think hes going to sign for that much.

Ive consistently said 9.5 is completely reasonable. I'm not sure why you're attaching me to the "should make less than 9" crowd, which is minimal in comparison to the rest of the population, particularly when I've never said that once.

I think its comical that you've attached yourself to the Matthews comparable as the only one valid though. Aho is going to make 11.634 then too right? He outscored Matthews by raw points this year, and goal scoring totals don't matter so in your eyes, Aho gets that? Thats why the even strength numbers and points/60 matter.

You can laugh about Cs making more than Ws as much as you want, and so can Marner's agent. That is historically how it goes.

1. Ask for proof then deny the proof
2. Call the other person stupid (you didn't do this but the other Leaf fan did)
We are here >> 3. Use words like strawman and make dissertation length posts repeating the same debunked talking points and claiming how you are definitely not wrong even when all the evidence shows you are

Last thing is for you to back out of this thread because you have "better things to do" or some such thing. Looking forward to it.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

1. Ask for proof then deny the proof
2. Call the other person stupid (you didn't do this but the other Leaf fan did)
We are here >> 3. Use words like strawman and make dissertation length posts repeating the same debunked talking points and claiming how you are definitely not wrong even when all the evidence shows you are

Last thing is for you to back out of this thread because you have "better things to do" or some such thing. Looking forward to it.

Its not proof if its not actually debunking the claim. If you tell me that 10 people in a room are wearing a red had, and i walk in and take off every red hat of the people in the room and hand you them, and its 7 hats, thats not proof that your claim is true mate. I said the majority of leafs fans arent saying Marner should get less than 9M, and you took the time to go try to find as many as you could and still came up with quotes on people saying he should make between 9 and 9.5. Thats is genuinely hilarious.

I said the majority of fans don't believe that Aho, Rantanen and Point are all getting 10.5M and you quoted what, 3 people saying they could get 10? That doesn't mean the majority of people think they're going to get 10.5, or even 10 haha.

How much money should Rantanen get? And do you believe he will get it? Can we agree that whatever Rantanen gets should be pretty damn comparable to Marner?

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

In 2 months, it will have been 5 years since Kane signed this deal that is being talked about

The comparison is awful.

If Kanes deal was signed like a year ago, then there could be some intrigue to this

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

In 2 months, it will have been 5 years since Kane signed this deal that is being talked about

The comparison is awful.

If Kanes deal was signed like a year ago, then there could be some intrigue to this

Which is why we should use percentage of the cap. Kane's 2nd contract at 11.09 pct on a 5 year term is a good one. 9.15 give or take where the cap ends up, so 9.5 seems reasonable.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Which is why we should use percentage of the cap. Kane's 2nd contract at 11.09 pct on a 5 year term is a good one. 9.15 give or take where the cap ends up, so 9.5 seems reasonable.

But wont seem reasonable at all for Marner making 2 mill per year less than Matthews.

That wont fly.. Guarenteed

 

[Marcobruin]

Neither does Auston Matthews, but here we are. Leafs dug their own hole.

Marner is as you know an excellent player however Matthews is at least a cut above.
AM is a total franchise generational player. AM hasn't accomplished yet what Kane has but he is a true force

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

But wont seem reasonable at all for Marner making 2 mill per year less than Matthews.

That wont fly.. Guarenteed

Then sign an offersheet - the Leafs gave Matthews a contract that was based on comparables of elite Cs. The disconnect seems to be that people are assuming Matthews is overpaid - I don't think he really is given his 5v5 and per 60 numbers. Marner certainly won't care, but the Leafs will. So they sit in a gap.

If the offersheet hits 4 first round picks, take the picks and go after Panarin or Karlsson (or Skinner or trade for D/whatever)

Is anyone giving Marner an 11M offersheet? Maybe. Is Marner signing a 10.5 (just below the 4 first rounder threshold) having the Leafs match over a 5m over 5 year difference, and dealing with the fan backlash that comes with it? Probably not.

 

[The Podium]

But wont seem reasonable at all for Marner making 2 mill per year less than Matthews.

That wont fly.. Guarenteed

Why not? Matthews is the better player...

It doesnt matter what Marner wants, he has no leverage above ~10.6 per

 

[aresknights]

To quote a line from from the movie Rounders
"Pay dis man his money"

You pay Marner and figure out how to make it work shufflung other deck chairs.

Passion, skill.......

 

[Spirit of 67]

7 years at 10.16

8.

But that's the number.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Leaf fans shouldn’t get their hopes up that MM will sign for anything under 10.5M. A 10.5M signed offer sheet would give 2 firsts, a second and a third. Everyone known Dubas will match that since it’s not worth letting marner walk for that. Just the threat of an offer sheet should set it as the floor. Dubas will say that they haven’t received an offer sheet to justify paying less but if I was marner’s agent I would say I’ll go public with a request that marner will sign a 10.5M offer sheet from someone and the offers will come in no doubt. Not sure Kyle would like cause I’m sure he knows to that he would get a 10.5M offer sheet. 10.5M is the floor on any term

So if that's the case, why would a team bother making that offer.
Pretty sure Duby knows that.

Also, sure Mitch, go ahead and sign that OS. I dare you.

 

[Snowpants]

Its not proof if its not actually debunking the claim. If you tell me that 10 people in a room are wearing a red had, and i walk in and take off every red hat of the people in the room and hand you them, and its 7 hats, thats not proof that your claim is true mate.

See part of the red hat exercise is that the other party actually did something to debunk it... screaming I am wrong does not debunk anything though. It is just screaming.

I said the majority of leafs fans arent saying Marner should get less than 9M, and you took the time to go try to find as many as you could and still came up with quotes on people saying he should make between 9 and 9.5. Thats is genuinely hilarious.

"Haha you took the time and found evidence of exactly what you were saying lol how funny"

I said the majority of fans don't believe that Aho, Rantanen and Point are all getting 10.5M and you quoted what, 3 people saying they could get 10? That doesn't mean the majority of people think they're going to get 10.5, or even 10 haha.

"Haha you found more evidence supporting your claim and I still don't have any supporting me lol wow I look bad haha"

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

See part of the red hat exercise is that the other party actually did something to debunk it... screaming I am wrong does not debunk anything though. It is just screaming.




"Haha you took the time and found evidence of exactly what you were saying lol how funny"



"Haha you found more evidence supporting your claim and I still don't have any supporting me lol wow I look bad haha"

Did you legitimately fail math class?

<=9.5 does is not the same as <9.

3 posts somehow means majority?

Again, how much is Rantanen going to make and is that a comparable to Marner?

 

[FinlandPanther]

Ummmmmmmm you want to try again?

I watched every single game and saw exactly what I saw. Lying to yourself to make Marner sound lesser on his contract doesn’t make it true. Marner is the better player. And you will all say that after that contract is signed. You guys are so extra it’s funny.

 

[Legion34]

I watched every single game and saw exactly what I saw. Lying to yourself to make Marner sound lesser on his contract doesn’t make it true. Marner is the better player. And you will all say that after that contract is signed. You guys are so extra it’s funny.

Every single which game? Boston toronto?

 

[FinlandPanther]

Every single which game? Boston toronto?

Obviously. Go play somewhere.

 

[Spirit of 67]

You can sign him for just over $10 M and only give up 2 1sts, 1 2nd and a 3rd. This is part I feel like is missing from discussion unless people feel offer sheets are a ll a conspiracy thing.

If he actually signs an OS for just over $10M/ the Leafs match without even blinking.
That's not even including the fact that you can't "just sign him" because he actually has to agree to it.

So why would you bother wasting time negotiating a contract they know will never come to be?

 

[Spirit of 67]

Are we really interested in cap advice from someone who's favourite team pays a goalie $10.5M?

My money is on the guy with the funky glasses and Avengers lunch box.

 

[Spirit of 67]

He chose to sign last, there is only so much of the pie that's left once waiting for others to eat first. If what's left isn't enough then we will take the 4 1st round picks and go from there.

No we won't, we'll match and trade him for what we can use faster than what 4 late first round pick will yield

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

People keep saying that Matthews is not comparable because he is a big center who scores goals. Even if Marner's camp is willing to concede that that is accurate, they can still turn the comparison to Nylander, where there are far more similarities. Both are slightly undersized playmaking wingers.

Player	Time Frame	GP	P	Points Per Game	Cap Hit	Dollars Per Point Per Game
Nylander	Career	185	135	0.73	$6,962,366	$9,541,020
Marner	Career	241	224	0.93	$8,868,002	$9,541,020
Nylander	Contract Year	82	61	0.74	$6,962,366	$9,359,246
Marner	Contract Year	82	94	1.15	$10,728,892	$9,359,246

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If they say that Nylander is exactly comparable to Marner outside of points, Marner should get $8.9M/6Y if they only use entire careers, and he should get $10.7M/6Y if they only use contract years. More realistically, you put a heavy emphasis on both, split the difference between the two, and get $9.8M/6Y. But it doesn't end at $9.8M/6Y. You also have to consider that Marner's contract will start one year after Nylander's did, and an equal salary will take up a lesser percentage of the salary cap. Therefore, you're looking at at least $10M/6Y.

Then, you have to consider the areas where Marner and Nylander are not entirely comparable; Marner is basically superior in all of them. Marner was 4th among Toronto forwards in shorthanded ice time with over 110 minutes, while Nylander played only 2 minutes and 42 seconds of PK time over his entire career before signing his contract. Marner has also performed much better in the playoffs than Nylander has. These things come into play in contract discussions. There is no chance in hell that Marner is getting paid less than $10M/6Y.

The fact that Marner's camp went public and basically said "we deserve Matthews money" while Toronto basically stated indirectly through the media "you don't deserve more than Kane" tells me that they're currently in between $10.5M and $11.634M in negotiations.

 

[Legion34]

Obviously. Go play somewhere.

Ya. There is no metric by which Marner outplayed matthews in that series.

Matthews has been the better player since 2015. There is no argument for Marner.

Matthews plays less time with lesser players in a more important position. And has outproduced marner.

If he was worth matthews money... wouldn’t he be getting paid matthews money?