Proposal: Leafs - Canucks 3 for 3 block buster

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I don't know about that. If you look at the top 50 in goal scoring last year (that goes down to 25 goals) there are only 4 players I would call power forwards. Pacioretty, Simmonds, Doan, Neal. You could make it 6 if you add Benn and Ovechkin but they are unique super star players and not classic tough power forwards. Of this group only Simmonds brings the physicality and edge that Virtanen does if he can join this group in in future.

If you look at the top 50 in scoring including assists which has to be included to be fair to Nylander, there are 22 centres. Finding good offensive centres is not as difficult as finding top level power forwards.

It also depends on what you consider elite...Tavares, Crosby, Seguin, Kopitar, Bergeron are what I would call elite centres that are harder to find than a top power forward. As for Nylander he will likely be playing his career as a scoring winger anyways unless the Leafs move Matthews or Kadri and Nylander gets better defensively and on face offs.

No guarantee Virtanen can join the top group of power forwards but that is what he was drafted to be and it is too early to write him off, he is a very toolsy player. We will stick with our local BC boy and see what develops. The league is full of soft players who can score and play in space.

You can fairly say the criticism is fair, though way too early on both players, that Virtanen needs to improve his game in some areas but for me I think Nylander has to prove he is not a perimeter player.

He should be a finesse player, calling him soft just incites bickering dude come on.

 

[Atomos2]

Dude one of your fellow fans on in this thread, talked about how Nylander is better than Tanev. He has been anointed as a stud #1 C already by many of your fellow fans, he is absolutely the most over rated player on this board, by a country mile.

Dude, Nylander has dominated every league he has played in and was well on his way to continuing his progression in the NHL. The kid is a stud, his physical attributes are outstanding (take a look at the instagram photo), his skill is off the charts and he gets statistically significant results.

Being overrated in this case is a joke because there has been very little significant evidence of diminished play from him. He has killed it in every league. Only ignorant skeptics have a reason to doubt him.

 

[Cupless44]

I'll be honest, I wanted and want Virtanen. He's my favourite type of player and I absolutely hope he becomes a 30 goals scorer who runs through guys to do it.

I'm not in the majority of non Vancouver fans who think he is a bust. I have confidence that he has all the tools to be the guy he was drafted to be.
I also think Tanev is better than Gardiner but not by much. Gardiner is getting underrated big time.

Thanks for your honesty and I will admit that Nylander is the surer bet at this moment but I think and hope both will be great players for 2 good fan bases.

I agree that a tough power forward is a fun thing to have and my favorite also. That is why I don't get how some Canuck fans can't be patient with Virtanen. He is a BC local boy thrilled to be a Canuck. Especially because the Canucks have been too soft for too long.

Leafs have good management now and have added a ton of good skilled prospects the last couple of years, though a lot are a bit small. You will need to add some size to the top 9 at some point. Picking up Rychel was a move I liked and worth a shot.

 

[Cupless44]

He should be a finesse player, calling him soft just incites bickering dude come on.

Fair enough, I retract! How about a skill player?

I

 

[Breakers]

I never saw any Leaf fans calling Nylander a superstar already. I only saw 1 person calling Virtanen elite...
What if Nylander reaches his potential? Are elite #1c's easy to find?

Also, Nylander was 190 at the beginning of last season. That's a picture of him from like a weak ago.

Honest Question: How can he be a 1C when he is never going to get the opportunity??

 

[Halla]

Dude one of your fellow fans on in this thread, talked about how Nylander is better than Tanev. He has been anointed as a stud #1 C already by many of your fellow fans, he is absolutely the most over rated player on this board, by a country mile.

canucks should have just taken nylander at 6. their loss because he will absolutely be better than virtanen. compare their nhl/ahl stats and its not even close. but yeah good luck with that 3rd line 15-20 goal power forward.

time to close this one. tanev isnt close to enough for the haul toronto is sending

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Dude, Nylander has dominated every league he has played in and was well on his way to continuing his progression in the NHL. The kid is a stud, his physical attributes are outstanding (take a look at the instagram photo), his skill is off the charts and he gets statistically significant results.

Being overrated in this case is a joke because there has been very little significant evidence of diminished play from him. He has killed it in every league. Only ignorant skeptics have a reason to doubt him.

I don't doubt him at all, he is a very good prospect, he isn't a proven commodity yet in the NHL though, is that up for debate? Or has what he has done in the SEL and AHL already made him a stud in the NHL? Your fellow fans seem to think so, so yah that means over rated. He is not better than Tanev, on of your fellow fans said that, so yah that indicated over rating.

Nobody doubts him, has anybody said that? Is it not possible to overrate a player who is already a very good prospect?

 

[TeamBester]

Dude one of your fellow fans on in this thread, talked about how Nylander is better than Tanev. He has been anointed as a stud #1 C already by many of your fellow fans, he is absolutely the most over rated player on this board, by a country mile.

How is a 19 year old that was crushing the AHL before his concussion not worthy of hype? He has potential to be a #1 center, easily.

 

[TeamBester]

Saying he is the most overrated player by a country mile is just as much hyperbole as calling him a #1 center.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

canucks should have just taken nylander at 6. their loss because he will absolutely be better than virtanen. compare their nhl/ahl stats and its not even close. but yeah good luck with that 3rd line 15-20 goal power forward.

time to close this one. tanev isnt close to enough for the haul toronto is sending

Thank you, whenever someone gives me or anyone else on here **** about ragging on leafs fans, I can show them this post.

You have no idea who will be better, especially considering one is a PWF and the other a finesse player. Notice how I can give your player credit, I don't need to childishly rip him apart, maybe you should try that, I know its hard right? They are completely different players if you had a modicum of rationale you would realize that. We won't know who is better until years down the road, because they are so different.

It's posts like this which help me understand why most logical leafs fans stay the hell away from this board.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

How is a 19 year old that was crushing the AHL before his concussion not worthy of hype? He has potential to be a #1 center, easily.

When you say that someone is something that have not proven to be yet, yes that is over rating, don't understand how you can't see that.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Saying he is the most overrated player by a country mile is just as much hyperbole as calling him a #1 center.

LOL you admit that he is over rated but that calling him over rated is over rated?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Why is this thread still open? It's blatantly obvious neither teams fanbase is comfortable with what they're giving up. Put a bullet in it and end the bickering.

 

[Cogburn]

Lol jut because Hutton is in YOUR top 4 and Virtanen is YOUR top prospect doesn't suddenly give then the value of a top 4 dman and a blue chip forward prospect.

Nylander is a solid prospect, but the same then goes for Gardiner. I can think of at least three times in the last 2 years that fans have wanted him off the team for free. A top two defender on your team, which finished below our motley crew, doesn't mean he's worth what ever is scraped off one of our shoes on another team either.

Remember Luke Schenn? He was a solid top four on the Maple Leafs, got a solid young top sixer at the time in return, and now the fact he was signed surprised some people on teams he played for.

Also there is the trade history of Larsson and Gudbranson, defenders are worth a lot more then forwards. Hall, who was touted as "untouchable" got a young top four defender. McCann, who was touted by our GM as off limits previously, was the key piece in a mediocre top four. True both are poised to develop, but the value discrepancy is there.

 

[TeamBester]

LOL you admit that he is over rated but that calling him over rated is over rated?

So omit "most" and "country mile" not sure how you can't understand what I was talking about.

 

[Raymoondo]

As a Canucks fan I'd say no.

HOWEVER, I thought about it for a long time.

It is very very close.

One of the best proposals on HF

Nice try, HfBoardUser

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

So omit "most" and "country mile" not sure how you can't understand what I was talking about.

You were saying that to call him overrated by a country mile is just as bad as anointing him as a #1C right? So basically two wrongs don't make a right?

He is the most over rated player on here though and it's not close, I'll admit that has more to do with the massive fan base that the leafs have than anything else, still doesn't change the fact that its true though.

There is a big difference between "he looks to be an elite player", which I totally agree with and "he will be an elite player", which we commonly see here including an implication that he is already a better player than Tanev, which is the perfect example of over rating, that is my point. It would be like Canucks fans saying that "Boeser will be a 1st line elite winger" over canucks fans saying "he looks to be a 1st line elite winger".

 

[Gavy]

Nylander is a solid prospect, but the same then goes for Gardiner. I can think of at least three times in the last 2 years that fans have wanted him off the team for free. A top two defender on your team, which finished below our motley crew, doesn't mean he's worth what ever is scraped off one of our shoes on another team either.

Remember Luke Schenn? He was a solid top four on the Maple Leafs, got a solid young top sixer at the time in return, and now the fact he was signed surprised some people on teams he played for.

Also there is the trade history of Larsson and Gudbranson, defenders are worth a lot more then forwards. Hall, who was touted as "untouchable" got a young top four defender. McCann, who was touted by our GM as off limits previously, was the key piece in a mediocre top four. True both are poised to develop, but the value discrepancy is there.

There's not many teams in the league where Gardiner isn't a top 4.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Nylander is a solid prospect, but the same then goes for Gardiner. I can think of at least three times in the last 2 years that fans have wanted him off the team for free. A top two defender on your team, which finished below our motley crew, doesn't mean he's worth what ever is scraped off one of our shoes on another team either.

Remember Luke Schenn? He was a solid top four on the Maple Leafs, got a solid young top sixer at the time in return, and now the fact he was signed surprised some people on teams he played for.

Also there is the trade history of Larsson and Gudbranson, defenders are worth a lot more then forwards. Hall, who was touted as "untouchable" got a young top four defender. McCann, who was touted by our GM as off limits previously, was the key piece in a mediocre top four. True both are poised to develop, but the value discrepancy is there.

Gardiner is a #3 dude.

 

[Cogburn]

There's not many teams in the league where Gardiner isn't a top 4.

And yet we trade a top pairing D, a (let's say arguably) top four sophmore and one of our top prospects for a number three, a improvement over said prospect and what ever piece is convenient, and still having it called a considerably lopsided trade for Vancouver?

And that doesn't address the original post I had, where an LHD and a forward for our top right hander, our second best lefty and a penciled in top nine next year isn't a fit for us.

We improve two areas here, on the left side of our D and potentially, in the future, our wing. One of those areas we're fine with. We surrender two young defencemen for this, both of whom don't get any credit because they play on a bad team in the West, and someone both management and fans see working into our future, although admittedly not as good potentially as the winger coming back.

We also would be doing this as a "rebuild" move, which management wouldn't allow.

Value isn't fixed, there is no reason for Vancouver to do this. Nylander will probably be a fine player, if we were forced at gunpoint to move Tanev to Toronto, we could do worse, but we're not. We are then writing off Hutton and Virtanen for Gardiner+, a player we don't need.

 

[TeamBester]

You were saying that to call him overrated by a country mile is just as bad as anointing him as a #1C right? So basically two wrongs don't make a right?

He is the most over rated player on here though and it's not close, I'll admit that has more to do with the massive fan base that the leafs have than anything else, still doesn't change the fact that its true though.

There is a big difference between "he looks to be an elite player", which I totally agree with and "he will be an elite player", which we commonly see here including an implication that he is already a better player than Tanev, which is the perfect example of over rating, that is my point. It would be like Canucks fans saying that "Boeser will be a 1st line elite winger" over canucks fans saying "he looks to be a 1st line elite winger".

Oh so he's the most over rated because there are more Leaf fans to over rate him. Got ya.

And yes, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Oh so he's the most over rated because there are more Leaf fans to over rate him. Got ya.

And yes, two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes exactly. I can't tell whether your response was sarcastic or not?

 

[Sundinisagod]

Honest Question: How can he be a 1C when he is never going to get the opportunity??

You mean like Malkin???

 

[Boondock]

Canuck fan - so take that for what it's worth.

In a vacuum, trade looks pretty equal. From an organizational standpoint it makes no sense for the Canucks, and I'm not going to speak on TO's stand because I don't know the team as well.

It's become fairly obvious that the Canucks have a mandate from ownership to make the playoffs. I don't agree but all signs point to playoff aspirations. We have a "2 year window" to compete while the Sedins are under contract. So given this flawed philosophy you can't trade away your top pairing RHD and your 2nd pairing LHD and only upgrade your 2nd pairing LHD and decimating your right side depth. We just paid a pretty high price for Gudbranson and we all saw what Larsson got NJ. Nylander looks like the real deal, but he's still got to prove it over an entire NHL season so he does have some inherent risk.
I'd rather have Virtanen than Brown - higher ceiling and Virtanen is getting more abuse than he deserves. Was he the most talented pick - no, can he become a Scott Hartnell - yeah I think so. Gardener has the edge on Hutton, but Hutton looked good last year. At one point he was on the top pair and put in some solid games. Huttons younger, cost controlled, cheaper and has the potential to be as good as Gardiner. Tanev is just too important to move for the unproven (high potential) Nylander.

Add Tanev's contract into the mix and he's a pretty valuable piece.

 

[leaflover]

Thank you, whenever someone gives me or anyone else on here **** about ragging on leafs fans, I can show them this post.

If it's all the same to you(and everybody else for that matter) i'm fine with representing myself and prefer not to be held accountable for the views of posters I've never even heard of. I would imagine there are Canuck fans who would opt not to have one poster speak for the entire fanbase as well.